Does Tywin care what people think of him?

[theblackdragonI]

 I'm not sure if there's been a topic like this before so if there has leave a link. 

So this has been on my mind for a while now. Sometimes I get the impression that Tywin really cares about what people think of him, like he's trying to cultivate an image of himself. At others his actions and words give off the impression that he honestly doesn't care at all as long as his family will endure after hes gone. I'm pretty torn so if any of you want to weigh in please do.

I'll start with him caring what people think. It probably stems from how little respect people had for his father despite him being the richest lord in the realm. I've always seen his actions to the Reynes and Tarbecks as him deliberately setting an example. Don't cross me and my family. It seemed to be very effective too. The quote from Myles Toyne to Jon Connington sums up this reputation I feel Tywin was trying to cultivate: " "Lord Tywin would not have bothered with a search. He would have burned that town and every living creature in it. Men and boys, babes at the breast, noble knights and holy septons, pigs and whores, rats and rebels, he would have burned them all. When the fires guttered out and only ash and cinders remained, he would have sent his men in to find the bones of Robert Baratheon.". I can only assume he'd be pleased to hear himself described like that; cold, calculating, efficient. Far better than to be like Robert. Which brings me on to my next point, when Joffrey says in front of him that he spent Robert's Rebellion "hiding under Casterly Rock". Understandably Tywin is none too happy to hear this. I may be reading too much into it because it's a very understandable thing to be insulted by, but should Tywin really care what Joffrey thinks of him? By then he knows that Joffrey is a spoilt maniac and not at all representative of the lords of Westeros.

Now for the other side. The first thing that comes to mind is obviously the Red Wedding. I mean it is such a dishonourable act that he will forever be linked with. While many such as Roose Bolton and other ruthless lords would see it as a political masterstroke, the majority would be disgusted at his involvement in such a breach of common rights. His thoughts on the matter are pretty clear: "Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner."  Admittedly it's been a while since i've re-read the books so please correct me if I'm wrong but is it commonly known that Tywin was the driving force behind the RW? Then there's his attempt to get a valyrian steel sword for his house. The fact that he has tried numerous times to purchase a blade from houses, who refused despite being so poor show how desperate he his to get one and how little cares that people know about it. I can only assume that his melting down of Ice would be frowned upon by at least the approximately 200 houses that have a VS weapon, if not the general nobility. But he doesn't seem to care, is this because he cares more about his family having two symbols of power than his own personal reputation? His use of Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat set him apart from the rest of the lords in the sheer brutality of the warfare he wages. I mean he really f*cks up the Riverlands and KL when he sacks it. Although this is a double-edged sword really. On one hand people might despise him for these actions (like Ned and presumably Jon Arryn, men with high notions of honour), on the other hand nobody can deny he gets results and so he might care about cultivating the latter reputation. 

I'm sure there's much, much more to either side and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[desire]

He cared for what Aerys thought 

[The Wolves]

Yes he does. 

You can see it in everything he does. From the over the top feast and gold like the unnecessary gold cloak he wears during battle. His over the top reaction to what he deems an insult against his house. The way he tries to overcompensate for the weak image his father gave House Lannister for years. The way he treats Tyrion, etc..... 

And you're not wrong people may not know it but they definitely rightly suspect that Tywin/house Lannister had a hand in the RW. The people in Westeros know Tywin Lannister's atrocities. 

[Philokles]

He cares deeply that House Lannister is feared and respected, but would like to give the impression that he could not care less.

[Lion of the West]

He does indeed, which I think is rather natural as only a fool does not care for a public perception. Especially someone with as much power as Tywin.

[Protagoras]

Tywin wants to project the image of power and competence. He want his family to be seen as strong but fair. Brutal when needed but willing to forgive those willing to give apology. In short, he is using his vast resurces to "buy" power (as well as the image of it). His message is clear - "if you mess with me there will be consequences, you have been warned". And I think its funny that some people think this treat is something they and everyone else should have the right to ignore, free of consequences.

(As a sidenote - If I play a board game, gives this threat and you ignore it and attack me, I´m gonna tear you down - making sure you don´t win. If you can´t handle that and are going to whine about it, then don´t attack me in the first place - moron!)

Being efficient in times of war is not something that will make him universally hated. Indeed, the act in question (Bells hypothesis) is one few gives him shit for - rather, JonCon look at it for inspiration. And responding to clear casus belli situations, like Tyrions kidnap is not strange either. When a family member is violated (and taking Tyrion to "trial" somewhere else is a horrifying predecent - suddenly nobles live in fear of having their siblings kidnapped and then "trialed" over - next time a Bracken might do the same to a Blackwood for instance) you respond and you don´t do it by sending a fucking letter. Yes he fucks up Riverlands, but thats what happens if you touch his family. Maybe if you care about the land and the peasants sooo much you shouldn´t do that next time, no? What more, yes - he took Ice from the self-proclaimed traitor Ned Stark and after all, if your rights are forfeited by the crown then so is your magical sword. Point is, none of these actions will make him universally hated.

The acts who is seen as univserally wrong by the Westerosi (Red wedding, Rape of Elia) he tries to distance himself from and while he present the dead Targaryen kids to Robert, he knows he must appease the new ruler and correctly judges Robert for a man who would see that as something positive. I tend to blame Robert for his. He had the choice to punish - he choosed to reward and acquit.

I also don´t think people think straight on this "he is a bad person, lets go get him" (even if it was true in this case, which I doubt it is) - if you run into a man willing to commit alot to take revenge, you don´t provoke said person because you don´t agree with methods - you make sure to never get on his wrong side in the first place. Its basic survival. If someone is a brutal monster, you don´t stand up to said monster - cause that makes YOU a self-proclaimed target.

[HoodedCrow]

He wanted to be feared. It worked.

 

[theblackdragonI]

4 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Yes he does. 

You can see it in everything he does. From the over the top feast and gold like the unnecessary gold cloak he wears during battle. His over the top reaction to what he deems an insult against his house. The way he tries to overcompensate for the weak image his father gave House Lannister for years. The way he treats Tyrion, etc..... 

And you're not wrong people may not know it but they definitely rightly suspect that Tywin/house Lannister had a hand in the RW. The people in Westeros know Tywin Lannister's atrocities. 

I forgot about the way he treats Tyrion. That whole story about Tysha is pretty horrific, and the point is so Tyrion won't disgrace the house but his brother Gerion can? Thanks for clearing that up about the RW also.

3 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

He cares deeply that House Lannister is feared and respected, but would like to give the impression that he could not care less.

I agree completely, he tries to appear indifferent at times but all his actions are pre-calculated to make sure he is feared and respected.

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Tywin wants to project the image of power and competence. He want his family to be seen as strong but fair. Brutal when needed but willing to forgive those willing to give apology. In short, he is using his vast resurces to "buy" power (as well as the image of it). His message is clear - "if you mess with me there will be consequences, you have been warned". And I think its funny that some people think this treat is something they and everyone else should have the right to ignore, free of consequences.

The acts who is seen as univserally wrong by the Westerosi (Red wedding, Rape of Elia) he tries to distance himself from and while he present the dead Targaryen kids to Robert, he knows he must appease the new ruler and correctly judges Robert for a man who would see that as something positive. I tend to blame Robert for his. He had the choice to punish - he choosed to reward and acquit.

I also don´t think people think straight on this "he is a bad person, lets go get him" (even if it was true in this case, which I doubt it is) - if you run into a man willing to commit alot to take revenge, you don´t provoke said person because you don´t agree with methods - you make sure to never get on his wrong side in the first place. Its basic survival. If someone is a brutal monster, you don´t stand up to said monster - cause that makes YOU a self-proclaimed target.

I don't think he cares about his family being perceived as fair. Just as long as they remain on top. To him the ends justifies mean completely. The reason I started this topic really is because Jaime's line "by what right does the wolf judge the lion?", really made me question if Tywin cares what people say behind his back. It clearly gets to Jaime that people call him Kingslayer, I wonder does it get to Tywin that people hate him so much. It probably didn't because he knew they feared him. Although, I'd imagine Tywin knew that he wasn't liked by Ned, Robert, Stannis and Jon Arryn, but seeing as these men didn't fear him I wonder did that piss him off? 

Yes the murder of Elia and the children really did him no favours. I don't think anybody bar really ruthless lords and Robert really commend that. 

 

[Davjos]

I think he doesn't really care about what people think of him now. I think he cares about what the historybooks will say about him. He doesn't want to be a great man, but a great Lannister Lord. One who people will look up to, take inspiration from. He wants a great Lannister dinasty with Tywin as the greatest there ever was. He is and probably should be proud with what cunning and slyness he took care of that Northern problem(Who beat his posterboy son) without lifting a finger, only saying some words. His legacy is the cause for everything he does. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

 snip

No, he is dead so he can't care about anything 

[Blood-Raven1001]

I think Tywin's primary motivation is what people think of him and more importantly the legacy of House Lannister. Specifically, according to Kevan he mistrusts laughter and seldom smiled at all after the death of his father and wife Joanna. People mocking him or challenging his House's legitimacy drives him absolutely nuts. 

Tywin also needs some bare level of legitimacy in the minds of all of the realm the great houses and even the commoners. Tywin does not care if they know he's ruthless as long as the end result is that all of Westeros knows of Lannister superiority. For example when Tywin ordered the barracks guards to gang rape Tysha and give her a silver stag each but Tyrion had to give her a gold dragon, "b/c a Lannister was worth more." Why does he care that one common girl like Tysha? I never viewed Tywin as unnecessarily cruel like Ramsay but this action seemed to waste his time, his guards, and his money for no reason than other to humiliate Tyrion and her. I think this goes back to his feelings about Tytos and his mistress who he made walk thru Lannisport naked. 

However, Tywin is smart enough to realize he can't just directly commit atrocities across the realm. He needs just enough pretext or guise to be able to justify his actions or blame others. The Reyne and Tarbeck massacre while directly committed by Tywin, can be justified to some degree because of their rebellion. Although the entire house was put to the sword Tywin was still generally liked throughout the Westerlands. "The Rains of Castamere" is even a popular song so I think the whole realm somewhat accepts it. 

He needs to have the nobility think there is at least a rational basis he didn't order the slaughter and he is on the winning side. While most of Westeros knows Clegane and Lorch scaled the Red Keep and killed Elia and the babes there is no actual direct evidence showing Tywin ordered it. .The fact of the quick Houses of Baratheon/Lannister uniting no one cared save Ned and Jon to condemn the actions. Aery's cruelty overshadowed any argument against Tywin and his lieges. Any accusations of Lannister involvement in the RW can be deflected to Freys too. 

I think the scene before the Battle of the Green Fork Tywin sums it up nicely when he asks whether Jamie cares when people call him Kingslayer. Jamie says of course it bothers him, Tywin then says, "... a lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of sheep." But maybe the lion should consider the opinions of the wolf and dragon regarding the sheep as well? 

[Batbob45]

He does care what people think of him. He want people to fear him because of what happen when his dad was a benevolent lord.

[Protagoras]

18 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

I don't think he cares about his family being perceived as fair. Just as long as they remain on top. To him the ends justifies mean completely. The reason I started this topic really is because Jaime's line "by what right does the wolf judge the lion?", really made me question if Tywin cares what people say behind his back. It clearly gets to Jaime that people call him Kingslayer, I wonder does it get to Tywin that people hate him so much. It probably didn't because he knew they feared him. Although, I'd imagine Tywin knew that he wasn't liked by Ned, Robert, Stannis and Jon Arryn, but seeing as these men didn't fear him I wonder did that piss him off? 

Yes the murder of Elia and the children really did him no favours. I don't think anybody bar really ruthless lords and Robert really commend that. 

 

I think that "fair" for Tywin is the same thing as house Lannister on top. That their status should be seen as preferably greater than all the other houses of Westeros. A "first among equal" position, like Superman in the justice league if you want. 

So when some noble refuses to give Lannisters the respect they owe, then the lion need to roar. Yet if they are willing to reconsider and make apology for their mistake, Tywin will forgive it. Note the language here though - this is not two parts making a common agreement, this is one part submitting for the other. You need to understand the error of your ways. 

Because, here is really why Tywin do care. The murder of Elia and the children DID give him favors. His daughter got to be queen and his family became the second house in Westeros, restoring their old position under Aerys. Certainly, some lords (like Ned) scoffs at this, but they were not in position to do anything about it nor does it has any impact on the power Lannisters wields in this new dynasty. Hell, the Lannisters joined late in the war and STILL reaped larger rewards and favors than the North. Tywin doesn´t want to be a universally hated monster, but has no problem to reap benefits from acts other lords might have issues it. But there is a line and Tywin makes sure to be on the right side of it. If everyone would universally think "Tywin is a complete monster for act x, he is like Ramsay and Gregor" then Tywin wouldn´t commit act x. 

[Praetor Xyn]

Moreso than anyone else in our story. Everything he does stems from that. His resentment of his father and whores (the hypocrisy here is hilarious), his handling of the Reynes, his attire, armor, mannerisms, treatment of Tyrion, etc. He started the war of the five kings because he cared more about the embarrassment Tyrion capture would cause his house than Tyrion himself.

[Aegon VII]

Good topic. I agree with some of the other posters and say that he cares immensely. Probably more than any other character

[Gertrude]

I also agree that he does care. He cares personally, but more importantly, as has been mentioned, he cares about Lannister legacy. For example, melting down Ice. Yeah, it's a dick move, but now he has two swords, so suck it. In a few generations no one will remember or care where they came from, just that the Lannisters have them. With the Red Wedding, I don't get the impression that he cares if anyone know his involvement, but he's just as happy to have the Freys and Boltons take the brunt of the scorn. Again, in a few generations no one will care about his involvement while they may still hate the Freys and Boltons - houses that have to live amongst the people they wronged. In the short term, he still maintains his reputation for strength and ruthlessness, and in the long term it positions his house to remain strong (by symbols of prestige - swords, or taking down dangerous rivals - Starks)

And remember - this is a man who shaved his head rather than go bald naturally. He's all about House Lannister, but he is the head of that House and cares deeply about appearances and insults. It's personal too. I don't know if they can be separated easily.

[Danelle]

Considering that he experienced the negative results of his father's rule, Tywin did care about what others thought about him and his House.

Quote

"No. Tywin mistrusted laughter. He heard too many people laughing at your grandsire."

He didn't wanted to be ridiculed by anyone.

When Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion, he warned her that his father might not love him but cared about the impact on House Lannister. A lot.

Quote

 Oh, no doubt the word has reached my father … but my father does not love me overmuch, and I am not at all sure that he will bother to bestir himself." It was only half a lie; Lord Tywin Lannister cared not a fig for his deformed son, but he tolerated no slights on the honor of his House. 

And he could not abide anyone laughing at him. 

Quote

A fool more foolish than most had once jested that even Lord Tywin's shit was flecked with gold. Some said the man was still alive, deep in the bowels of Casterly Rock.

Especially if another noble was making fun of him.

Quote

Unbidden, a memory came to her, of the feast King Aerys had thrown when Cersei first came to court, a girl as green as summer grass. Old Merryweather had been nattering about raising the duty on wine when Lord Rykker said, "If we need gold, His Grace should sit Lord Tywin on his chamber pot." Aerys and his lickspittles laughed loudly, whilst Father stared at Rykker over his wine cup. Long after the merriment had died that gaze had lingered. Rykker turned away, turned back, met Father's eyes, then ignored them, drank a tankard of ale, and stalked off red-faced, defeated by a pair of unflinching eyes.

Since Tyrion brought Shae to KL, he infuriated further his father, since he was reminded of Lord Tytos' mistress and the negative impact she had on House Lannister.

And according to Cersei he likely trie dto hide his grief when he received the news of his father's death.

Quote

 Her grandfather had died when she was only a year old, but she knew the story. Lord Tytos had grown very fat, and his heart burst one day when he was climbing the steps to his mistress. Her father was off in King's Landing when it happened, serving as the Mad King's Hand. Lord Tywin was often away in King's Landing when she and Jaime were young. If he wept when they brought him word of his father's death, he did it where no one could see the tears.

Of course, there ware times when he didn't seem to care if his actions made him feared than loved, but that was part of his strategy.

Quote

King's Landing had never loved Lord Tywin. He never wanted love, though. "You cannot eat love, nor buy a horse with it, nor warm your halls on a cold night," she heard him tell Jaime once, when her brother had been no older than Tommen.

 

[black_hart]

Lannisters are associated with the Red Wedding. Most won't have heared the "Jaime Lannister sends his regards", but the fact that the (Lannister-)Frey's are awarded Riverrun, the Bolton's wardenship, and the Lannister-Frey marriages after the Red Wedding are there for the world to see.

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, black_hart said:

Lannisters are associated with the Red Wedding. Most won't have heared the "Jaime Lannister sends his regards", but the fact that the (Lannister-)Frey's are awarded Riverrun, the Bolton's wardenship, and the Lannister-Frey marriages after the Red Wedding are there for the world to see.

Associated with something is not the same as guilty of something. The Lannisters will no doubt take a wiff of it, but not be covered in the stench like the Freys are.

[Chris Mormont]

He doesn't care what people think of him as long as they fear and respect House Lannister.