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Lord Greatjon Umber and his fate in "The Winds Of Winter".


LordMiddleFinger

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3 minutes ago, LordMiddleFinger said:

 Only a fool would consider Greatjon "weak". The man is HUGE! Angry as fuck and a natural born warrior. Any Frey who thinks that he is safe around Greatjon deserves to die in the most horrible way imaginable.

Agreed the great Jon is a huge man but 2 years in a dungeon will turn the strongest of men frail and weak unfortunately. 

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On 2/6/2017 at 11:52 PM, King Merrett I Frey said:

The Freys may have a more practical use for the Greatjon. They can trade him back to the north, reason why they are keeping him tucked in the Twins. I don't think George has a heroic deed for the Greatjon, because I don't think he believes in lone thriller action scenes. Or, if he indulges in one, he makes it end in a pathetic way. Just remember Quentyn and Mero. Specially Mero.

 I agree with the "Or, if he indulges in one, he makes it end in a pathetic way."
Which is why i clearly state in my theory that Greatjon will die. His death will serve as a wake up call for The North.

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15 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Agreed the great Jon is a huge man but 2 years in a dungeon will turn the strongest of men frail and weak unfortunately. 

 I am 6.3. I know a guy who is 6'10. The motherfucker is huge and even though I've spent 6 years in the army and i am in a very good physical shape i still look like a damn child next to him. Size DOES matter! Greatjon is 7 feet tall! Probably the second strongest character after the Mountain. If i was a member of the Frey family i wouldn't go near that guy unless i had at least 5-6 skilled soldiers with me. A "frail and weak" Greatjon is probably still strong enough to kill a man with his left hand while taking a piss with his right ;)

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1 hour ago, LordMiddleFinger said:

 Lord Wyman Manderly despises Roose Bolton. The Umbers despise Roose Bolton. I think this has pretty much been confirmed, the Umbers are working against the Boltons and even Roose Bolton seems to suspect this. The question is are the Umbers and the Manderlys working together in some way and are other Northern Houses in on this.. Anyway my point is that if Greatjon dies, all of the other Northern Lords will stop pretending that they are loyal to the Boltons and to the Crown. Which is why i think that Greatjon has to die. 

I called it conjecture because we have no proof the Umbers in Winterfell are working with the Umbers outside Winterfell, even though I'm sure they are.

As for evidence of the Umbers and Manderlys working together:

  • The Freys left Winterfell and walked into a pit trap dug by the Umbers, while the Manderlys left by another gate that wasn't booby trapped. This doesn't seem like a coincidence but it might be.
  • Mors Umber tells Jeyne and Theon that Mikken knew his steel, but he likely never saw any of Mikken work. This leads me to believe he's seen the sword Osha took from Ned's tomb, which was Mikken's work. We assume Osha is on Skagos, and I'm assuming she stopped off at the Umbers' holdings on the way, where he saw the sword.
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1 hour ago, LordMiddleFinger said:

 Walder Frey "I'm keeping Greatjon". Jaime doesn't have time to deal with Walder Frey anyway... he is about to become a prisoner himself.

Must be good to be so sure about all this stuff. Cheers, but I'll stick to keeping an open mind and to considering a few possible scenarios. 

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32 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I called it conjecture because we have no proof the Umbers in Winterfell are working with the Umbers outside Winterfell, even though I'm sure they are.

As for evidence of the Umbers and Manderlys working together:

  • The Freys left Winterfell and walked into a pit trap dug by the Umbers, while the Manderlys left by another gate that wasn't booby trapped. This doesn't seem like a coincidence but it might be.
  • Mors Umber tells Jeyne and Theon that Mikken knew his steel, but he likely never saw any of Mikken work. This leads me to believe he's seen the sword Osha took from Ned's tomb, which was Mikken's work. We assume Osha is on Skagos, and I'm assuming she stopped off at the Umbers' holdings on the way, where he saw the sword.

Roose Bolton tells them which gates to assemble at.

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16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Must be good to be so sure about all this stuff. Cheers, but I'll stick to keeping an open mind and to considering a few possible scenarios. 

Lol! I am not sure about any of this. It's pure speculation at this point. When "The Winds Of Winter" come out we'll see what happens though i am 90 % sure that Jaime will become a prisoner once again but i seriously doubt that he will be executed. He will escape somehow, Brienne will probably die though.

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10 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Roose Bolton tells them which gates to assemble at.

Maybe Roose knows that the Umbers are betraying him and he is playing them. If they think their plan is working they might let their guards down... or maybe it was just good luck for The Umbers and the Manderlys.

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Just now, LordMiddleFinger said:

Maybe Roose knows that the Umbers are betraying him and he is playing them. If they think their plan is working they might let their guards down... or maybe it was just good luck for The Umbers and the Manderlys.

WF only has 1 gate where you can ride straight through both layers of walls, the others you go through 1 gate in the inner wall, then half to walk around the castle and go through a second gate in the outer wall.  The Freys left through the gate you can leave directly and that makes perfect sense to be the gate the Umbers would dig at.  Roose working with the Umbers outside the castle is pretty nonsensical.  His only real allies are the Freys.  While he is willing to see them killed to calm things down as he knows the north hates them, he wouldn't just kill them without gaining anything, he sure as hell wants to see them take Stannis down with them.

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I don't remember who else the Freys are holding hostage. Although Jaime has issued orders that the hostages be released the Freys are in a difficult situation. They release the hostages and they have no leverage nor does Bolton. Don't release the hostages all the Lannister's can do is lay siege. Sure the Lannisters, Freys and Boltons are in bed together but there is an Ironborn threat floating around.

Which presents more of a problem to KL, the Throne and the surrounding areas, Freys or Ironborn. Plus there is that thing that is happening over at SE.

Roose got his wardenship via Twyin. Roose is on very shaky ground. Tywin is dead. Doesn't seem like anyone in KL is concerned about what is happening up north.

The northmen are angry about the RW. The Freys have no comrades in arms except Bolton.

If GreatJon dies while in captivity of the Freys the northmen will get angrier. That will not help Freys or Boltons. Best to keep GJ a healthy hostage or make it look like GJ was accidentally killed while trying to escape (fell from a tower).

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

WF only has 1 gate where you can ride straight through both layers of walls, the others you go through 1 gate in the inner wall, then half to walk around the castle and go through a second gate in the outer wall.  

I'm glad you mentioned this. The gate thing at WF has perplexed me for a long time.

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Because GreatJon is a monster of a man it's likely he's been tortured, including maimed and mutilated.  While I agree there may be no real breaking of his spirit, even a huge man without hands or feet is less than he was.  The Freys are terrible people, having no conscience or loyalty.  How many were actually killed at the Red Wedding, hundreds?  

Spoiler

Aeron The Damphair isn't a tiny person; look what mere weeks in dungeons have done to him--his feet swollen like hams, skin covered in sores, emaciated, vermin infested, on the brink of insanity... 

We have no reason to believe GreatJon is being treated humanely and I would not be surprised if he is held back or dead at this point.  I can't see any Frey trusting GreatJon in any condition to turn cloak.   What good is he to the North if he is hobbled or mad?  I don't think any Northman needs further proof of the Frey's capacity for evil.  

There may be a slight chance that GreatJon was simply imprisoned and ignored, fed once a week or infrequently. Realistically, I would imagine one of Robb's most trusted advisers would be a lot of fun to taunt and torture.   I'm nearly resigned to GreatJon being incapable of any further badassery.   That small shard of hope wants to see him tear the Twins down on Walder's head.  So, I hope against hope that he was sprung much earlier and is fuming in the Neck with Maege and Galbart.   

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Because GreatJon is a monster of a man it's likely he's been tortured, including maimed and mutilated.  While I agree there may be no real breaking of his spirit, even a huge man without hands or feet is less than he was.  The Freys are terrible people, having no conscience or loyalty.  How many were actually killed at the Red Wedding, hundreds?  

  Reveal hidden contents

Aeron The Damphair isn't a tiny person; look what mere weeks in dungeons have done to him--his feet swollen like hams, skin covered in sores, emaciated, vermin infested, on the brink of insanity... 

We have no reason to believe GreatJon is being treated humanely and I would not be surprised if he is held back or dead at this point.  I can't see any Frey trusting GreatJon in any condition to turn cloak.   What good is he to the North if he is hobbled or mad?  I don't think any Northman needs further proof of the Frey's capacity for evil.  

There may be a slight chance that GreatJon was simply imprisoned and ignored, fed once a week or infrequently. Realistically, I would imagine one of Robb's most trusted advisers would be a lot of fun to taunt and torture.   I'm nearly resigned to GreatJon being incapable of any further badassery.   That small shard of hope wants to see him tear the Twins down on Walder's head.  So, I hope against hope that he was sprung much earlier and is fuming in the Neck with Maege and Galbart.   


 You made some very good points, especially regarding the treatment of The Greatjon. I admit, for years I've dreaded the possibility of him being tortured by the Freys. I don't want to see this happen. Greatjon deserves better and yes i know, there is no justice in this world and the good guys usually get the short end of the stick. But i seriously doubt that the rest of The Umbers would not find out about this. If a member of my family was being held as a hostage by my enemies so that they could force me to "be nice and not try to kill them all" i wouldn't just demand for Greatjon not to be killed. I would also demand AND warn them that he should be treated well and if they even think about torturing him that they will pay for that with their lives. I am sure The Umbers and the rest of the Northern Lords have been keeping tabs on the Freys and the Boltons in order to make sure they are not torturing and mutilating their fathers, sons and brothers. Also let's not forget that The Greatjon is NOT Theon. I would like to see a Frey try and go into his cell to torture him. Even if restrained we already know that Greatjon can kill a man by biting his face off. They would probably have to kill him if they tried to torture him because he would resist so much and probably would start killing everyone in his cell before some Frey soldier realizes that it won't work and that they have to kill him. Though i agree that they are definitely taunting The Greatjon and are not feeding him properly. They probably give him SOME food once or twice a week just so that he wouldn't die and, of course, to keep him in a weakened condition.

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12 minutes ago, LordMiddleFinger said:


 You made some very good points, especially regarding the treatment of The Greatjon. I admit, for years I've dreaded the possibility of him being tortured by the Freys. I don't want to see this happen. Greatjon deserves better and yes i know, there is no justice in this world and the good guys usually get the short end of the stick. But i seriously doubt that the rest of The Umbers would not find out about this. If a member of my family was being held as a hostage by my enemies so that they could force me to "be nice and not try to kill them all" i wouldn't just demand for Greatjon not to be killed. I would also demand AND warn them that he should be treated well and if they even think about torturing him that they will pay for that with their lives. I am sure The Umbers and the rest of the Northern Lords have been keeping tabs on the Freys and the Boltons in order to make sure they are not torturing and mutilating their fathers, sons and brothers. Also let's not forget that The Greatjon is NOT Theon. I would like to see a Frey try and go into his cell to torture him. Even if restrained we already know that Greatjon can kill a man by biting his face off. They would probably have to kill him if they tried to torture him because he would resist so much and probably would start killing everyone in his cell before some Frey soldier realizes that it won't work and that they have to kill him. Though i agree that they are definitely taunting The Greatjon and are not feeding him properly. They probably give him SOME food once or twice a week just so that he wouldn't die and, of course, to keep him in a weakened condition.

GJ definitely deserves better.  Still the Freys killed someone from everywhere.  I guarantee you the Mormonts, Manderlys--all the North feels this rage.   The Umbers no doubt have that rage as well.  What I think we have in the North is a carefully orchestrated plan.  Not so much a GNC as smaller clusters of varying conspiracy.  Everyone at Winterfell has shown remarkable restraint and I take that as indicative of some greater purpose.  I think that purpose is to isolate the Bolton loyalists and get rid of them, whether through imprisonment or death.  An enemy of my enemy is my friend will be the overwhelming rule of thumb when Stannis approaches.  The Freys and Boltons need to be contained before they can be dealt with.   Once they're all dealt with there can be revenge and whatever the next plan for power is.  Truly these northern folks are between a rock and a very hard place.  I doubt there are any demands for mercy being made.  Why would they?  The Freys are wretches without even the decency to observe guest right.  No, I would think there is more prayer than demand where the hostages are concerned.  Particularly considering what Wyman Manderly had to go through just to get his son's bones.  

I wasn't referring to Theon.   That's what the spoiler tag was for.  Vic Greyjoy is a big man.   That leads me to believe his brothers are big as well.   I was speaking of Theon's uncle, The Damphair, Aeron Greyjoy.  Though not as big as GreatJon Umber, Aeron was in good health and it's not unreasonable to imagine he was nearly as big as Vic.  

I am really enjoying your rage at the potential circumstance here.   Good.  You are hooked.  I'm thinking something along the lines of binding GJ to a rack or shackled to a wall so he really couldn't do much damage then shooting little arrows at him or tossing scalding water at him--things he would be helpless against.   I saw the torture museum once.  It featured replicas of a myraid of devices used in the dark ages.   You wouldn't believe how mean people could be to each other.      

I don't mean to taunt you at all friend.  I think I'm trying to bury my hope because I frickin love the GreatJon and know GRRM knows this and will have his sadistic pleasure with me at the GreatJon's expense.  Life was happier before I got hooked.  

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3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Because GreatJon is a monster of a man it's likely he's been tortured, including maimed and mutilated.  While I agree there may be no real breaking of his spirit, even a huge man without hands or feet is less than he was.  The Freys are terrible people, having no conscience or loyalty.  How many were actually killed at the Red Wedding, hundreds?  

  Reveal hidden contents

Aeron The Damphair isn't a tiny person; look what mere weeks in dungeons have done to him--his feet swollen like hams, skin covered in sores, emaciated, vermin infested, on the brink of insanity... 

We have no reason to believe GreatJon is being treated humanely and I would not be surprised if he is held back or dead at this point.  I can't see any Frey trusting GreatJon in any condition to turn cloak.   What good is he to the North if he is hobbled or mad?  I don't think any Northman needs further proof of the Frey's capacity for evil.  

There may be a slight chance that GreatJon was simply imprisoned and ignored, fed once a week or infrequently. Realistically, I would imagine one of Robb's most trusted advisers would be a lot of fun to taunt and torture.   I'm nearly resigned to GreatJon being incapable of any further badassery.   That small shard of hope wants to see him tear the Twins down on Walder's head.  So, I hope against hope that he was sprung much earlier and is fuming in the Neck with Maege and Galbart.   



"I wasn't referring to Theon.   That's what the spoiler tag was for.  Vic Greyjoy is a big man.   That leads me to believe his brothers are big as well.   I was speaking of Theon's uncle, The Damphair, Aeron Greyjoy.  Though not as big as GreatJon Umber, Aeron was in good health and it's not unreasonable to imagine he was nearly as big as Vic. "

 Yeah i know you were talking about Aeron Greyjoy. I was justing using Theon as an example because he was, indeed tortured and for a very long time. My point is that The Greatjon is a different beast so to speak. Some men will rather commit suicide by forcing their captors to kill them rather than suffering the humiliation of being tortured and mutilated by their enemies. I think that Greatjon fits this profile.

 Plus we don't really know how big Aeron is. He is not really a warrior like his brother, Victarion is probably the best warrior that the Ironborn have. I always imagined him to be very similar to Robert Baratheon in terms of size, strength and the fighting style.


 BTW i don't mind the taunting LOL. I don't know if you are familiar with Japanese Manga? There is this BRILLIANT Manga story "Berserk" and the writer is a freaking genius and a fucking sadist who would put GRRM to shame. If you are a fan of ASOIAF then i recommend you give Berserk a try. Without revealing too much, there is certain character who gets tortured and what happens to him is even worse than what happened to Theon/Reek.
 

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One of the posters caused me to rethink what I posted earlier. It would be to the advantage of Frey & Bolton to kill GJ. If he were released he would be a gigantic problem to House Bolton. So yeah, might as well have GJ go out in a blaze of glory.

I like the way the op set up the imagery by using the Umber coat of arms, “the fearsome sigil of House Umber, a roaring giant in shattered chains.”

Merrett sorta used it too ending with, “When he couldn't fight with his hands any longer, Umber had fought with his teeth.”

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Epilogue

The final humiliation had been delivered with a smile, when Lame Lothar had summoned him to discuss his role in Roslin's wedding. "We must each play our part, according to our gifts," his half-brother told him. "You shall have one task and one task only, Merrett, but I believe you are well suited to it. I want you to see to it that Greatjon Umber is so bloody drunk that he can hardly stand, let alone fight."

And even that I failed at. He'd cozened the huge northman into drinking enough wine to kill any three normal men, yet after Roslin had been bedded the Greatjon still managed to snatch the sword of the first man to accost him and break his arm in the snatching. It had taken eight of them to get him into chains, and the effort had left two men wounded, one dead, and poor old Ser Leslyn Haigh short half an ear. When he couldn't fight with his hands any longer, Umber had fought with his teeth.

 

Since I wasn’t sure who the hostages are Jaime is telling Frey to release I looked around on wiki. It only mentions four.

Edumure – used RR to get BF to surrender, and who now on his way to Casterly Rock.

Patrek Mallister – used at Seagard to get Jason to surrender. They are now prisoners there.

Marq Piper – Clement Piper thought that by bending his knee he would win release of Marq. Didn’t happen.

GreatJon – being used to keep Crowsfood & Whoresbane under control .

Lady Dustin is under the impression GreatJon still lives. I guess she would have gotten that info from Roose. Roose has been known to tell a lie or two. Maybe GJ did as the OP suggested. Maybe GJ escaped his goalers and struck out like a roaring giant in shattered chains. Maybe Frey & Bolton are keeping GJ’s death a secret just to keep Mors and Hother in line.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

"Night work is not knight's work," Lady Dustin said. "And Lord Wyman is not the only man who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers. Flints, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Slates … they all had men with the Young Wolf."  "House Ryswell too," said Roger Ryswell.

 

The more I think on it, the more I think GJ is actually dead. Dead is definitely better than tortured; or left to rot in a cell somewhere in a dungeon. I be tinking either way it goes, a live GJ or a dead GJ is a huge problem for Lord Leech.

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  • 3 months later...

I can see several scenarios. Held as captive at King´s landing, killed, liberated by BWB - it really comes down to if GRRM plans to let the Umbers survive as a house or if their removal will be seen as one of those losses that simply have to follow of a war of that calibre. in addition, their lands will be hit first by the others.

I am more or less convinced that both Mors and Hother will die

Spoiler

Mors might be dead already if certain information is to be belived

and that the Umbers will have a tough, tough time ahead of them. So I am marginally more on the "Greatjon dies" side. But I can see GRRM saving Greatjon for a reason too. Maybe he will be assisting BWB when they attack. Or he dies to make it all more tragic and impactful.

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