Jump to content

Analyzing Prince Nymor's letter


James Steller

Recommended Posts

As we know, Aegon's war with the Dornish ended when Princess Deria handed Aegon a letter from her father, which caused him such anxiety and distress that he immediately flew to Dragonstone, returned the next morning, and agreed to peace between his realm and Dorne as two equal kingdoms.

This leaves us all wondering what the hell could possibly have been written in that letter, and also why Aegon left for Dragonstone. But let's focus on the letter.

First off, we know that the peace lasted for the rest of Aegon's rule. Even though Aegon had dragons and superior numbers to throw at Dorne, they scared him enough to keep the peace. And this is even though his favourite sister/wife and her dragon died at the hands of the Dornish.

Some speculate that his sister was actually still alive, being tortured by having death withheld from her, and the Dornish agreed to put her out of her misery if Aegon made peace. But I don't think that's at all likely. If it were true, there would be nothing stopping Aegon from immediately reneging on the peace and starting another war once he found out his sister was killed (and he wouldn't tolerate the Dornish still keeping her alive for the rest of Aegon's reign, as they wouldn't be holding up their side of the bargain in that case).

Another theory brought forward is that Nymor would use the wealth of Dorne to hire a Faceless Man and kill Aegon's son. This might explain why Aegon flew off to Dragonstone in such a hurry, assuming that his son was there, and he wanted to make sure the boy was alright. But then if that's the case, why wouldn't Aegon just hire a Faceless Man to kill Nymor first? Agree to the peace, then immediately send for the world's best assassins to eliminate House Martell. I refuse to believe that Aegon couldn't pay at least ten times what Nymor could afford.

It has to have been some kind of leverage which wouldn't expire or couldn't be out-purchased or undermined by Aegon. Not even with all of his superior wealth, numbers, and dragons. But the kicker is that whatever leverage it was, it clearly wasn't enough to save the Dornish from Daeron years later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

I refuse to believe that Aegon couldn't pay at least ten times what Nymor could afford.

 

Being Aegon and his sisters the first of the dynasty, the current status of Westeros (and not even the entirety of it) was more of 'Aegon's Kingdom'. Considering this newly found kingdom, held together by means of force (dragons) and a complex web of alliances... yadda yadda...maybe  Aegon just didn't had enough coin to kill an entire highborn family, in this case the Princedom of Dorne, a kingdom in itself. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a puzzle to be sure.  What would cause a king to act so quickly and obligingly?  Dorne has no dragon or alternate power source to threaten mass destruction with.  All Dorne has is a beloved sisterwife and her dragon--unless there was someone else with Rhaenys.  Another child of Aegon born in captivity?  Dragon eggs?  That's probably over the top.  Aegon chose Rhaenys and loved her.  Her imprisonment and suffering would be enough to make the man who loved her acquiesce.  

We assume this letter contained a threat because of the way the old princess spoke to Rhaenys.  The letter may have simply informed Aegon of the death of Rhaeyns and sued for peace, appealing to his grief and possible gratitude for the care they may have given her following some accident or her own foolishness.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a hard time taking this situation with Rhaenys-blackmail as realistic tbh. Or maybe Aegon is too much of a weak, emotional person compared to me.

Lets assume it has something to do with Rhaenys and that the letter contains some kind of verification known by her so Aegon knows the letter is not a fake. Ok what exactly happens then? Because I have a hard time seeing the dornish getting the effect they hope for. 

If the letter say "We have her and we have tortured and/or raped her, you will never find her but we will give give her a easy death if you end the war", well in that case I no longer care. My beloved will never be returned to me and has suffered already. I can´t see myself really care that she will suffer more, but would feel even more interested in continuing the war and make the dornish suffer (Deria should very, very happy that she is a part of a peace envoy because Oh my god what she would have suffered otherwise). We are talking mass-scale atrocities here that would be commited against the dornish. 

If the letter say "We have her and we havn´t touched her in any way but we will execute her if you don´t end the war and, in such a case you do, we will let her live in Dorne at peace - but she will never be returned to you", well then I can´t see the reason why I would end the war either. The "value" of Rhaenys is dependant on her relation to me and if I can never get her back nor see her again that value is diminished. A never returned hostage "counts" as dead, because I will have no way to see him or her ever again, so  the person kidnapped will no longer do what made him or her valuable - that is being a part of my life. 

In addition, I can´t trust the dornish to keep their word, can I? When you hold hostages in this way, I have only their word to go on as to whether Rhaenys survives or under which circumstances she dies. And let's be honest, if we had established the level of trust we had never been in this situation in the first place.

The end result in all these cases is, unless they can deliver Rhaenys to me, the peace is not going to happen (and in one of the cases will follow by even more cruelty). The suffering of relatives won´t simply stop me from taking justice in their name and no emotional appeal to "end the suffering" would work on me. So, if this worked then that must mean that they were lucky that Aegon was weak enough for it to work. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

I have a hard time taking this situation with Rhaenys-blackmail as realistic tbh. Or maybe Aegon is too much of a weak, emotional person compared to me.

Lets assume it has something to do with Rhaenys and that the letter contains some kind of verification known by her so Aegon knows the letter is not a fake. Ok what exactly happens then? Because I have a hard time seeing the dornish getting the effect they hope for. 

If the letter say "We have her and we have tortured and/or raped her, you will never find her but we will give give her a easy death if you end the war", well in that case I no longer care. My beloved will never be returned to me and has suffered already. I can´t see myself really care that she will suffer more, but would feel even more interested in continuing the war and make the dornish suffer (Deria should very, very happy that she is a part of a peace envoy because Oh my god what she would have suffered otherwise). We are talking mass-scale atrocities here that would be commited against the dornish. 

If the letter say "We have her and we havn´t touched her in any way but we will execute her if you don´t end the war and, in such a case you do, we will let her live in Dorne at peace - but she will never be returned to you", well then I can´t see the reason why I would end the war either. The "value" of Rhaenys is dependant on her relation to me and if I can never get her back nor see her again that value is diminished. A never returned hostage "counts" as dead, because I will have no way to see him or her ever again, so  the person kidnapped will no longer do what made him or her valuable - that is being a part of my life. 

In addition, I can´t trust the dornish to keep their word, can I? When you hold hostages in this way, I have only their word to go on as to whether Rhaenys survives or under which circumstances she dies. And let's be honest, if we had established the level of trust we had never been in this situation in the first place.

The end result in all these cases is, unless they can deliver Rhaenys to me, the peace is not going to happen (and in one of the cases will follow by even more cruelty). The suffering of relatives won´t simply stop me from taking justice in their name and no emotional appeal to "end the suffering" would work on me. So, if this worked then that must mean that they were lucky that Aegon was weak enough for it to work. 

In all of the above cases you react only caring about yourself, and not about the wellbeing of your so called loved one. In other words, your only interest in your loved one, is the value she adds to you. Not in her personal wellbeing. You say you wouldn't care what happened further to Rhaenys if she wasn't returned to you again. So in other words, if she isn't any good to YOU, she is of no worth. Seems like a somewhat psychopathic way of looking at the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In all of the above cases you react only caring about yourself, and not about the wellbeing of your so called loved one. In other words, your only interest in your loved one, is the value she adds to you. Not in her personal wellbeing. You say you wouldn't care what happened further to Rhaenys if she wasn't returned to you again. So in other words, if she isn't any good to YOU, she is of no worth. Seems like a somewhat psychopathic way of looking at the world.

Well, since I am the center in my own life the obviously the value of someone is going to be the value I give them, which is directly propotional to how much I "need" the person, how much said individual means to me. It might sound harsh, but there is a reason people you don´t spend time with as much as before is reduced in value (reduced, not necessary zero), since the relation is not so strong anymore. My friends are my friends because I like spending time with them. If they wouldn´t want to spend time with me they would, slowely but surely, stop being my friends. The emotional attachment WILL end sooner or later. 

So what will happen is that this high value person for me will be denied me and there is nothing I can do about it. And while I even still might want this person to be happy (because of her original high value) and wouldn´t have that much problem with her having a life apart from mine, I don´t think it is up to me to be forced into a deal where said happiness is provided without me included, yet I still have to pay in principles, money and (in this case) lack of action. Thats the key issue here. Rhaenys is not fine in a vacuum somewhere apart from me. She is only fine somewhere apart from me AND if I pay for it. That is morally unacceptable for me. And even if said feelings are reinvigorated fast when I hear that she was alive after all, then the more time goes by they will be lowered. So Aegon should have attacked 5-10 years later or something. A peace now is not the same thing as a peace forever during my reign. 

If you find that psychopathic, be my guest. I am just brutally honest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems like a convenient plot tool to explain why a king with dragons at his disposal managed to not conquer a the last and smallest kingdom. A mystery note claiming torture means that Rhaenys was kept alive and tortured for 3 years. I doubt the conqueror would have ended the war because of that. I like the idea of an assassin, but again, that is cheap.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In all of the above cases you react only caring about yourself, and not about the wellbeing of your so called loved one. In other words, your only interest in your loved one, is the value she adds to you. Not in her personal wellbeing. You say you wouldn't care what happened further to Rhaenys if she wasn't returned to you again. So in other words, if she isn't any good to YOU, she is of no worth. Seems like a somewhat psychopathic way of looking at the world.

plus

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Well, since I am the center in my own life the obviously the value of someone is going to be the value I give them, which is directly propotional to how much I "need" the person, how much said individual means to me. It might sound harsh, but there is a reason people you don´t spend time with as much as before is reduced in value (reduced, not necessary zero), since the relation is not so strong anymore. My friends are my friends because I like spending time with them. If they wouldn´t want to spend time with me they would, slowely but surely, stop being my friends. The emotional attachment WILL end sooner or later. 

So what will happen is that this high value person for me will be denied me and there is nothing I can do about it. And while I even still might want this person to be happy (because of her original high value) and wouldn´t have that much problem with her having a life apart from mine, I don´t think it is up to me to be forced into a deal where said happiness is provided without me included, yet I still have to pay in principles, money and (in this case) lack of action. Thats the key issue here. Rhaenys is not fine in a vacuum somewhere apart from me. She is only fine somewhere apart from me AND if I pay for it. That is morally unacceptable for me. And even if said feelings are reinvigorated fast when I hear that she was alive after all, then the more time goes by they will be lowered. So Aegon should have attacked 5-10 years later or something. A peace now is not the same thing as a peace forever during my reign. 

If you find that psychopathic, be my guest. I am just brutally honest.

Not psycopathic, just extremely selfish and ego-centric but able to be honest about it.

Aegon however loved Rhaenys dearly*. That's the key difference. Love means putting someone else's well-being ahead of your own. To keep her safe, or keep her from suffering any longer than necessary, he very likely would have agreed to peace. 

Can't really fault Protagoras for not loving a fictional character. 

 

*He had to marry Visenya, but he chose to marry Rhaenys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A problem with any scenario where the letter was threatening Aegon and/or Visenya, is that it came simultaneously with a counter-threat in the form of Deria. What was stopping them from responding "Give our sister back at once, or we'll start feeding your daughter to our dragons feet-first"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, should I take from this that the reason it worked is that A. People don´t see this like I do and B. I don´t understand Love?

Ok, well - my objection still stand. If Aegon had been more like me there would have been zero reasons why this would have worked. And while certainly people act differently, this does strike me like a moment of weakness. Considering that the man had no problem subjugating the entire Westeros sans Dorne and killed those that defied him, such streak of empathy do seem to be outside his capacity. Then again, i have always been baffled that so-called "empathic" persons are able to differentialize between different humans in such a high degree. This sounds like a plot device more still.

PS. If I put someone else's well-being ahead of my own, then I do it because I WANT to do so. Because of my definitions, I have ranked someone as more important than me. But it is still me deciding the values here. I am still at the center of my own life. DS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Protagoras said:

So, should I take from this that the reason it worked is that A. People don´t see this like I do and B. I don´t understand Love?

Ok, well - my objection still stand. If Aegon had been more like me there would have been zero reasons why this would have worked. And while certainly people act differently, this does strike me like a moment of weakness. Considering that the man had no problem subjugating the entire Westeros sans Dorne and killed those that defied him, such streak of empathy do seem to be outside his capacity. Then again, i have always been baffled that so-called "empathic" persons are able to differentialize between different humans in such a high degree. This sounds like a plot device more still.

PS. If I put someone else's well-being ahead of my own, then I do it because I WANT to do so. Because of my definitions, I have ranked someone as more important than me. But it is still me deciding the values here. DS

OK, Commander Data.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

 

PS. If I put someone else's well-being ahead of my own, then I do it because I WANT to do so. Because of my definitions, I have ranked someone as more important than me. But it is still me deciding the values here. I am still at the center of my own life. DS

In my own experience it is more of an instant, subconscious decision to put the welfare of someone else ahead of your own. I see where you're coming from though Aegon would have had time to make a decision if indeed Rhaenys was being held. He would have to live with going against his gut reaction however, and leaving his love to die. Which is something I don't think most people would do, which is why I don't think they had Rhaenys captured and it is just a plot device. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lady Lia said:

A problem with any scenario where the letter was threatening Aegon and/or Visenya, is that it came simultaneously with a counter-threat in the form of Deria. What was stopping them from responding "Give our sister back at once, or we'll start feeding your daughter to our dragons feet-first"?

Wow, I didn't think of that. That definitely complicates things if we're trying to figure out what the hell was in that letter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

C'mon dudes, why did Aegon's hand bleed when he read the letter? And why did he have to fly to Dragonstone and back before responding? 

I think his hand bleeding is just to show us that he was really emotionally distraught at reading the letter, so much so that he didn't even realize the pain being caused by slicing his hand open on the throne.

I'm not sure why he had to fly to Dragonstone, but that does appear to be central to the mystery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Maybe she was alive and pregnant when captured by the Dornish. Maybe they threatened to kill her child if Aegon went to war. That would change the scenario a bit...

Okay, wow, that's a brilliant explanation. If Rhaenys had a kid, the Dornish promise to raise them safely as long as they are left alone. Aegon would not dare risk the child's life, so that explains the lasting peace. And Daeron would certainly not care about some Targ kid that was long dead by now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...