Rhaegar was WAY better than Robert

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, dariopatke said:

We are talking about medieval times. And for all they know she was kidnapped. 

 

 

 

Robert was smart enough to pick a good Hand. I really do not find him that bad. I do not find Rheagar either, but from two of them Robert is way better King. Even if he doesn't rule, Jon did pretty good job at it. And naming Eddard Hand was not that bad move at all. People tend to make him guilty for Wot5K, but he imagine if boar did not kill him, this war would not last that long.

Rhaegar was an awful King, a man who kidnaps (or lets entire world think that happened) LP's daughter and faincee of another LP should not be a King. 

People say Robert whored himself, yes. But Rheagar left his wife and children for another woman. Robert never fell in love in anyone but Lyanna.

They are both grey characters, but I am more on team Robert.

Rhaegar was never king. 

And why does anyone keep saying that Arryn was a good Hand, most of the things that lead to TWot5Ks comes from many of his decisions? 

[The Hoare]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Rhaegar was never king. 

And why does anyone keep saying that Arryn was a good Hand, most of the things that lead to TWot5Ks comes from many of his decisions? 

Like what? How could he imagine that Cersei would not produce a heir to Robert?

[devilish]

56 minutes ago, Blueroses said:

Yes, Jon Arryn and Ned were excellent choices as hands (not for them though). But do you think Robert chose them because of their qualities and honours ? I don't think so, he only chose them because of personal reasons. He and Ned were Jon arryn's wards. It's like he had chosen his own father and his own brother. Poeple he can completly trust and who had fought a war with him in a realm where some still see him as a "usurper". It's an obvious choice IMO, making it didn't make him smart but not making it would had made him stupid.

Or worse, with Brandon Stark, the wild wolf...

They were excellent friends not excellent hands. Both were beta males who would ultimately bend to Robert's wishes and obey his stupid rules. Jon was old with his own worries to cater (ie making sure there's actually a heir to succeed him) while Ned  was not cut for the role as he simply couldn't comprehend the game of throne

Robert needed an experienced hand. Someone who would put ruling above anything else. He needed Tywin or Tyrion as hand not and old man or a loyal puppy

[dariopatke]

1 hour ago, Blueroses said:

Yes, Jon Arryn and Ned were excellent choices as hands (not for them though). But do you think Robert chose them because of their qualities and honours ? I don't think so, he only chose them because of personal reasons. He and Ned were Jon arryn's wards. It's like he had chosen his own father and his own brother. Poeple he can completly trust and who had fought a war with him in a realm where some still see him as a "usurper". It's an obvious choice IMO, making it didn't make him smart but not making it would had made him stupid.

But he never chose his brothers. However I agree to some extent, but this was smarter then angering two parts of your realm by kidnapping a woman. It was a good thing to marry Cersei and brilliant thing to marry Stannis to Selyse. It was smart move to pick Jon and not Ned for Hand in first place since he is way better then Ned. But Ned is way better then Tywin (if you are Robert in 297 AL).

I only think that Robert had way too many Lannisters in his environment. But I have to give him credit for not picking Tywin as Hand after Jon.

[dariopatke]

22 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Rhaegar was never king. 

And why does anyone keep saying that Arryn was a good Hand, most of the things that lead to TWot5Ks comes from many of his decisions? 

He was grown up crown prince who many think was scheeming to become king very soon so his actions should be considered.

He did bring peace to Realm, he did bring Dorne back peacefully after huuuge reason for war. Which descisions?

[Blueroses]

6 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

But he never chose his brothers.

Because he never loved nor felt close to his brothers as he did with Ned who he grew up with in the Eyrie.

[Stormking902]

So many of you are saying o Robert never truly loved Lyanna, have you ever heard of love at first site? I believe this was the case here. Also Rhegar might have been the better option for Lyanna but she was bethrothed to Robert and should have did her duty to her father and her house running away with a married man wasnt a good choice and cost Lyanna the life of her father and over protective older brother. Robert was a GOOD man prior to the rebellion and there is absolutly no proof Robert would have cheated on Lyanna if they did get married, also Ned was like a brother to Bob I cant see him running around with every whore in KL since Ned would obviously here about it. Robert was a man that every lord who followed him loved and admired I believe when Lyanna died it took the better part of him with her and in his sorrow he turned to drinking and whoring. 

[The Wolves]

44 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Like what? How could he imagine that Cersei would not produce a heir to Robert?

Aligning with the Lannisters after all the treachery they showed during the war for one. There was no reason for Arryn to propose a marriage between Robert and Cersei. Arryn decided to reward House Lannister for the hundreds of deaths and rapes that they brought on Kings Landing and that IMO was a mistake. He never did soothe Dorne because they've been planning revenge for over 15yrs. He choose Littlefinger. 

 

[The Wolves]

26 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

He was grown up crown prince who many think was scheeming to become king very soon so his actions should be considered.

He did bring peace to Realm, he did bring Dorne back peacefully after huuuge reason for war. Which descisions?

Of course we consider his actions but that doesn't mean he was ever a king. Rhaegar was a prince and died as one, never a king. 

[The Hoare]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Aligning with the Lannisters after all the treachery they showed during the war for one. There was no reason for Arryn to propose a marriage between Robert and Cersei. Arryn decided to reward House Lannister for the hundreds of deaths and rapes that they brought on Kings Landing and that IMO was a mistake. He never did soothe Dorne because they've been planning revenge for over 15yrs. He choose Littlefinger. 

 

The lannisters didn't started the Wot5K. As I said, Jon Arryan couldn't have expected that Cersei would sleep with her brother. Lord Eddard was murdered by Joffrey's order, which was oficially a Baratheon.

Could be seen as evil, but Tywin killing Rhaegar's children was necessary to assure Robert's rule.

Dorne was neutral in the war.

[theMADdestScientist_]

I have the popcorn, just need some place to sit confortably, i'm loving the thread, we are literally discussing about a character we know very well from the first book, and another we know nothing about(but there are some who think they know the character), can't get better than this

[devilish]

29 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

The lannisters didn't started the Wot5K. As I said, Jon Arryan couldn't have expected that Cersei would sleep with her brother. Lord Eddard was murdered by Joffrey's order, which was oficially a Baratheon.

Could be seen as evil, but Tywin killing Rhaegar's children was necessary to assure Robert's rule.

Dorne was neutral in the war.

erm they invaded the Riverlands

[Rippounet]

13 hours ago, Emie said:

Not only was Robert a drunken womanizing moron who put his country in debt, but let's face it, he never actually loved Lyanna.

Are we talking about Robert being worse as a person or as a king?
As a person, I find it hard to say. Without knowing why Rhaegar abducted Lyanna exactly, Robert seems like a worse person.
As a king it's also hard to compare since Rhaegar never became king, but I'd say Robert has a lot going for him. His womanizing doesn't seem much of an issue  (even Tywin whored). It's unclear when he became an alcoholic but I doubt he was such a drunkard in his youth.
On the other hand he was good at making friends and allies, good at squelching rebellions, good at choosing his advisors... He put the kingdom in debt, sure, but it's unclear what role LF or the Lannisters played in that (perhaps he is not solely to blame, others could have had the guts to tell him it had to stop). Oh, and also, Robert was beloved by the people.
There's no guarantee that Rhaegar would have been better as a monarch. On the face of it he had a lot of qualities. That doesn't mean he couldn't have blundered, especilly given his obsession with prophecy.

[Joy Hill]

Rhaegar was a horrible prince, Robert was a horrible king. Both of them were horrible husbands and fathers (although Robert has the excuse of having had a wife who was equally horrible to him). It's hard to say which one was "better".

 

 

 

[theMADdestScientist_]

24 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

Rhaegar was a horrible prince

Why? did he committed any crimes before this so called "abduction"? did he abused the others? burned people alive? treated them bad? i don't remember reading about it.

25 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

Both of them were horrible husbands and fathers

I couldn't possibly talk about Rhaegar's relationship with his wife and children, George never wrote about it, the only thing we know, is that Elia asked him if he was going to make a song for their newborn son, which means he must have done something like this before, probably for Rhaenys.

[Orphalesion]

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

For all we know, he kidnapped Lyanna. Are you implying that kidnapping women is fine?

For all we know she went on her own free will. but we don't know yet. None of us. There is no convincing evidence for Lyanna's motivations. None at all.

[Blueroses]

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

... she was bethrothed to Robert and should have did her duty to her father and her house ...

Seriously ?

I won't even give you the list of all the betrothals that went wrong in the series ...

1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

Could be seen as evil, but Tywin killing Rhaegar's children was necessary to assure Robert's rule.

"Necessary" ? Once again, seriously ?

18 minutes ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

I couldn't possibly talk about Rhaegar's relationship with his wife and children, George never wrote about it, the only thing we know, is that Elia asked him if he was going to make a song for their newborn son, which means he must have done something like this before, probably for Rhaenys.

We also know that Rhaegar asked Jaime before going to the trident to protect his wife (Elia) and his children. Barriston Selmy said that Rhaegar was "very fond" of her after a hesitation when Daenarys asked him if Rhaegar married her for love or duty implying that he cared for her but unfortunately never was in love with her.

[Stormking902]

17 minutes ago, Blueroses said:

Seriously ?

I won't even give you the list of all the betrothals that went wrong in the series ...

"Necessary" ? Once again, seriously ?

We also know that Rhaegar asked Jaime before going to the trident to protect his wife (Elia) and his children. Barriston Selmy said that Rhaegar was "very fond" of her after a hesitation when Daenarys asked him if Rhaegar married her for love or duty implying that he cared for her but unfortunately never was in love with her.

So what? Just because other characters broke there bethroal it makes it ok ? She was bethrothed to the lord of SE not some Ser nobody she should have did her duty also Rhegar was married which makes things 10x worse I feel like Lyanna had no honour to speak of, Rickard should of had her fostered in the Vale to. 

[Orphalesion]

3 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

So many of you are saying o Robert never truly loved Lyanna, have you ever heard of love at first site? I believe this was the case here.

Yeah and have you heard how "love" at "first sight" often turns out in real life, Little Dove? Not that well, because it's merely attraction based on physical factors and pheromones.

That's why I''m saying he loved the ideal of Lyanna, but he would not have loved living with the real actual person she was,she would have been way too demanding and way to high maintenance for him (just like almost every woman who has a mind of her own).

If Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar I'm not going to judge her for it. As long as she hasn't said the vow in the Sept and the bedding has taken place she owes nobody nothing.
 

My personal theory is that it was a spur of the moment reaction to rebel against Rickard. Lyanna's oftne compared to Arya, but I think she also shared some of Sansa's characteristics (her romantic mindset, perhaps). She was mad at daddy and her brothers for promising her to Robert without even asking her, Rhaegar was there and asked if she would be his winter rose or something. He was attractive. He was elegant. He was a fairy tale prince come true. And it would make daddy mad.

So I think she went along just for the adventure and romance of it all, not quite understanding what she got herself into, or forbidding herself from thinking too much about it if she did. She might have planned to have a bit of fun with Rhaegar, make Rickard and everyone mightily worried and then go back home.

But instead shit hit the fan and by the time there was a war going on she was in the Tower of Joy with no means of communication that would allow her to convey her side of the story.

[Joy Hill]

1 hour ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

Why? did he committed any crimes before this so called "abduction"? did he abused the others? burned people alive? treated them bad? i don't remember reading about it.

Making off with the daughter of a great House betrothed to the lord of another great House, and then hiding in a hole for a long time while the war he started escalates is enough to make him a spectacularly bad prince in my eyes. Robert didn't burn anyone alive, I still consider him to be a terrible king.

1 hour ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

I couldn't possibly talk about Rhaegar's relationship with his wife and children, George never wrote about it, the only thing we know, is that Elia asked him if he was going to make a song for their newborn son, which means he must have done something like this before, probably for Rhaenys.

We know he caused the situation that led to their deaths, and did nothing to protect them. There's also the issue of humiliating Elia in front of the whole realm when she had just recovered from giving birth.

57 minutes ago, Blueroses said:

We also know that Rhaegar asked Jaime before going to the trident to protect his wife (Elia) and his children. Barriston Selmy said that Rhaegar was "very fond" of her after a hesitation when Daenarys asked him if Rhaegar married her for love or duty implying that he cared for her but unfortunately never was in love with her.

Jaime dreams of Rhaegar's ghost telling him "I left my wife and children in your hands", but when he remembers the last conversation they had Rhaegar does not as much as mention them. Jaime simply assumes Rhaegar wanted him to protect them. Regardless, not moving them from KL and leaving one 17 year old of doubtful loyalty to keep them safe is not great protection.

 

But anyway, I agree that we don't know everything about Rhaegar, and all the arguments for or against him are mostly speculation (unlike king Bob).