Rhaegar was WAY better than Robert

[theMADdestScientist_]

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

The choice of wife for a Crown Prince is highly political move and he did not participate or care.

Rather, he wasn't allowed to "participate", the choice isn't his, nor would Aerys care for what he thinks.

Many others passed for the same thing, Lyanna and Elia for example.

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

He seemed to have done little while his father grew mad and only built a faction by being the better alternative

His duty isn't to babysit his father, and for all we know, when things started getting worse, he did try something, but we don't have all the details yet, so to have a better discussion.

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

And yes I place more of the blame on him because Lyanna was 14/15 and he was a grown man past his mid-twenties with a wife and two kids.

Look, Robert impregnated a 14 year old girl, when he was 35 years old, and had "three children already", and he proceeded to abandon that same girl and their daughter, he even mocked the fact that the girl named their daughter after house baratheon. Robert didn't left three of the best swordsman alive to protect and take care of her while he was out. Westeros isn't our times, things work differently here, using the age as a factor for something like this, simply does not work, look at Dany and Jorah, it's grotesque because he could be her grandfather(in westeros at least), but it is what it is.

And for the record, Rhaegar was fairly young, he was merely 23, only 2-3 years older than Robert Baratheon himself.

 

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

Rhaegar fucking up when he knew better would make him a bigger asshole in my opinion.

We don't know the whole story yet, is hard to talk about something we don't know.

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

Ugh... when I remember she had just given birth, and almost died, the ick factors shoots through the roof. Just gruesome and a clear "well, since you're of no use to me anymore" move. 

Was he thinking this? i don't remember reading about it.

If he really was after a third child as many seems to assume(i don't think it was this), he didn't force another pregnancy on Elia, what a bad guy.

If he didn't care about her health, he would do something very different.

 

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

Anywhoooo, I wholeheartedly believe they can be the same level of terrible. It is really hard to determine what is objectively worse

Talking about a character we don't know is very easy, we can say anything really, because at the end of the day, it's what George writes that matters, until he writtes more, there's not that much we can discuss.

 

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

Full disclosure, I despise Robert and find Rhaegar to be quite repulsive.

I don't despise Robert, but he did "certain things", that made us have a very low opinion of him

I couldn't possibly have a formed opinion on Rhaegar, crowning Lyanna as the QOLAB was a moment, but that supposed abduction was something else, i would have to know exactly what happened, and what the parts involved thought about it, but, for the rest, there's not much i can say, he seems to have been a dutiful guy before Harrenhal, far from being repulsive, but he is no saint, no one in this series is.

 

12 hours ago, NorthGirl said:

Sorry this is long and not saying anything new, but I have so many thoughts about the thoughts on this subject and I always come away with a new perspective.

Your opinion is welcome, i enjoyed reading about it, but that's alot for a character we never met, too many assumptions, most you blame Rhaegar for not causing more "problems" and being way "too dutiful", but it's not like that. Rhaegar had to walk a fine line between doing his best to check Aerys and not becoming another of Aerys' victims himself, especially since Aerys had a "spare" son to succeed him if Aerys ended up having to kill or displace Rhaegar and his kids, this isn't an easy situation by no means. Rhaegar even had to move to Dragonstone when he married, so his wife could be spared from seeing things she did not need to see.

 

[The Hoare]

14 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

 Saying that someone deserves death for "stealing a woman from another man" is embracing some very barbaric ideas - even if such an idea may hold in Westeros (which it doesn't, at least not for nobility and royalty), to trumpet it "out of universe" is just wrong. It's like saying that pillaging is OK, because it's just paying the Iron Price.

"Barbaric" is a buzzword that has lost it's original meaning. Just because something is considered wrong by one culture self-declared civilised, doesn't mean it is inherently bad.

Pillaging is pretty much half the reason for wars. What's the point of fighting if you can't take the spoils?

9 hours ago, devilish said:

Cat is married to a Stark and she was obeying her husband orders following an alleged crime done by Tyrion on a Stark. Tywin from all the people know how difficult it is to control a daughter whose married to a powerful husband

Tywin's pre-emptive attack was sound military strategy. He hoped to smash the Riverlands forces and make Hoster/Edmure hostages before the Vale and the North could react. With Hoster and Edmure hostages and forced to bend the knee, Robb's incursion to the South would be interpreted as an invasion rather then a rescue mission. The Riverlands Lords or even the Vale might interpret Robb's intention as hostile (ie it puts Hoster/Edmure's life in danger) which might have turned the Vale against the North.

I applaud Tywin's tactics however lets not kid ourselves that Tywin invaded the Riverlands because Cat did boo boo to the imp. If Tywin took that at heart then he should considered taking his armies to the mountains of the Vale to confront Lysa about her arrogance in judging his son. 

 

Ned claimed she was following his orders, but Catelyn's POV shows otherwise. She decided to take Tyrion as hostage only after he recognized her in a inn. 

Either way, neither a Stark, Tully or Arryn has any right to judge the son of a LP, only the King could do it.

 

Remember that Tywin attacked the Riverlands before Robert died, there was  no reason for a rescue mission before Cersei accused Lord Eddard of treason.

 

To attack the Vale you need to smash the power of the Riverlands first.

[purple-eyes]

2 hours ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

Rather, he wasn't allowed to "participate", the choice isn't his, nor would Aerys care for what he thinks.

Many others passed for the same thing, Lyanna and Elia for example.

His duty isn't to babysit his father, and for all we know, when things started getting worse, he did try something, but we don't have all the details yet, so to have a better discussion.

Look, Robert impregnated a 14 year old girl, when he was 35 years old, and had "three children already", and he proceeded to abandon that same girl and their daughter, he even mocked the fact that the girl named their daughter after house baratheon. Robert didn't left three of the best swordsman alive to protect and take care of her while he was out. Westeros isn't our times, things work differently here, using the age as a factor for something like this, simply does not work, look at Dany and Jorah, it's grotesque because he could be her grandfather(in westeros at least), but it is what it is.

And for the record, Rhaegar was fairly young, he was merely 23, only 2-3 years older than Robert Baratheon himself.

 

We don't know the whole story yet, is hard to talk about something we don't know.

Was he thinking this? i don't remember reading about it.

If he really was after a third child as many seems to assume(i don't think it was this), he didn't force another pregnancy on Elia, what a bad guy.

If he didn't care about her health, he would do something very different.

 

Talking about a character we don't know is very easy, we can say anything really, because at the end of the day, it's what George writes that matters, until he writtes more, there's not that much we can discuss.

 

I don't despise Robert, but he did "certain things", that made us have a very low opinion of him

I couldn't possibly have a formed opinion on Rhaegar, crowning Lyanna as the QOLAB was a moment, but that supposed abduction was something else, i would have to know exactly what happened, and what the parts involved thought about it, but, for the rest, there's not much i can say, he seems to have been a dutiful guy before Harrenhal, far from being repulsive, but he is no saint, no one in this series is.

 

Your opinion is welcome, i enjoyed reading about it, but that's alot for a character we never met, too many assumptions, most you blame Rhaegar for not causing more "problems" and being way "too dutiful", but it's not like that. Rhaegar had to walk a fine line between doing his best to check Aerys and not becoming another of Aerys' victims himself, especially since Aerys had a "spare" son to succeed him if Aerys ended up having to kill or displace Rhaegar and his kids, this isn't an easy situation by no means. Rhaegar even had to move to Dragonstone when he married, so his wife could be spared from seeing things she did not need to see.

 

Not sure about other things but we have no idea why Rhaegar moved to dragonstone after wedding. You can guess, but you can not say for sure he moved there to "protect" his wife. He might just want to use his marriage as an excuse for himself to move out of court and stay away frim Aerys. 

[theMADdestScientist_]

5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

He might just want to use his marriage as an excuse for himself to move out of court and stay away frim Aerys. 

Yes, it could have been this as well

 

[purple-eyes]

21 hours ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

Did nothing to protect them? then why did he brought an army of 40 thousand men with him to the trident? if that wasn't to protect his children, then what was that? he died trying to protect them.

 

Of course, giving a garland of roses to another woman in a tourney is an insult, but there are bigger insults, much bigger. Robert insulting and humiliating Cersei for 14 years, in front and behind her back, until this killed him, is an example.

I like Elia, a lot actually, but i can see this isn't a black and white story, to be pitying one and hating the other, this doesn't exist in this story. Look at Jaime, he tried to kill Bran and at some point was looking to kill Arya as well, but many people, including me, like him a lot, the difference here, is that we read about Jaime, we know him, but we know nothing about Rhaegar, so it makes it easy to go right into the simplest conclusion, because one does not know the character.

If anything, Rhaegar had noble reasons to give a "bunch of roses" to Lyanna, when other people would have scolded her for the things she "did". It seems he wasn't looking for the prettiest face he could find, unlike many out there.

He gave a bunch of roses to a girl who protected the weak, when these so called "knights" did nothing, and this tells alot about the person Rhaegar is, not perfect, but not bad by no means, he is pretty rare actually, especially when you realize how Brienne has been treated by most men.

No, Rhaegar did not ask Jaime to protect his children before leaving, he didn't need to do that, Jaime has a duty to defend the royal family, Rhaegar doesn't need to ask Jaime to do his duty, and Jaime's age does not matter, his duty does.

To be fair, Rhaegar brought a large army to protect his own royal crown and, much more importantly, protect his once-in-lifetime true love Lyanna Stark from being brutally taken away from him by her family members and fiancee. He did not specifically do this for his wife and children. 

And quite the opposite, his wife Elia is actually protecting Rhaegar because Dorne sent 10000 men for the sake of her safety. 

And yes, Rhaegar never asked Jaime to protect his family. He only focused on Lyanna because he give three best KG to Lyanna and only a young and hostage-like Jaime for his father mother brother unborn sister his wife and his two children. Well, if you think Rhaegar thinks Jaime can protect all of them, then he surely has a different opinion on how many KG are needed to protect one person (Lyanna Stark). 

Jaime was creating that in his dream because he saw the death of Elia and children and he was very guilty about it.

 

 

[theMADdestScientist_]

4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

To be fair, Rhaegar brought a large army to protect his own royal crown and, much more importantly, protect his once-in-lifetime true love Lyanna Stark from being brutally taken away from him by her family members and fiancee. He did not specifically do this for his wife and children. 

And quite the opposite, his wife Elia is actually protecting Rhaegar because Dorne sent 10000 men for the sake of her safety. 

And yes, Rhaegar never asked Jaime to protect his family. He only focused on Lyanna because he give three best KG to Lyanna and only a young and hostage-like Jaime for his father mother brother unborn sister his wife and his two children. Well, if you think Rhaegar thinks Jaime can protect all of them, then he surely has a different opinion on how many KG are needed to protect one person (Lyanna Stark). 

Jaime was creating that in his dream because he saw the death of Elia and children and he was very guilty about it.

 

 

Lyanna was in the middle of nowhere , Aerys had the Red Keep and KL.

[John Doe]

On 7.2.2017 at 3:46 AM, Emie said:

While I'm still displeased with what he did, I actually think he was a MUCH better man than Robert. Not only was Robert a drunken womanizing moron who put his country in debt, but let's face it, he never actually loved Lyanna.

She was very intelligent, kind, funny and had a great "fire" about her as Ned would say. Lyanna is in fact the type of woman that turns Robert off. He preferred a woman who would sit pretty and keep her mouth shut while he does whatever he wants. 

Rhaegar on the other had probably did see Lyanna's fire and was in fact truly in love with her and who she was. He saw her as a human being and not as an object, which makes him better than Robert. That among other things, he most likely would have been a very intelligent and competent ruler who obviously would have been SO much better than his mad father. 

1. Debt vs civil war... I'll take the debt. Womanizing vs womanizing (Rhaegar was a married man when he abducted teenage Lyanna after all), hard to say, I'd say Robert is better, since his escapaded at least didn't threaten his legitimate children's inheritance, which is preferable by medieval standards. 

 

2. I disagree, from reading Ned's chapters it is clear that Robert ultimately hated lickspittles and desperatedly wanted someone in the capital who dared talk to him normally. Where do you read he wanted to be married to a woman who would sit pretty and keep her mouth shut? Obviosly Cersei is not disliked because she opens her mouth, but because she is an asshole. Lyanna wouldn't be like Cersei, so there's no comparion there. I agree that it is debatable whether he truly loved her, but I do not agree with you when you say you know that he didn't. Rhaegar couldn't have known her any better when he abducted her- or when she went with him- so you're applying a double standard here I think. 

 

3. Where do you get that from? That robert only saw her as an object? Every single time we see him talking about her he seems very concerned and respectful, while Rhaegar abducted or seduced her to use her for a prophecy and afterwards pretty much left her in a tower while fighting against her family. Both may or may not have seen her as an object, but judging by what we know what Rhaegar did to her was far worse. 

 

So, out of the categories you listed, I'd argue that Robert wins in every one. Robert was better than Rhaegar, not only as a warrior. Until we get more information about the whole Rhaegar and Lyanna thing at least, though it could go the other way too and make Robert look even better in comparison. 

 

[HoodedCrow]

We all know that when your family agrees for you to marry a womanizing drunken money incompetent wastrel with a big axe, you should stay sold, no matter how unwilling you are. Your talents should be reduced to your pedigree and your wombs fertility. 

[purple-eyes]

10 hours ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

Lyanna was in the middle of nowhere , Aerys had the Red Keep and KL.

lyanna was well hidden in a very secret place which even took a lot of time for Ned and White Bull to find. not to mention that nobody else out of the whole country has ever knew or found her. including Doran and Oberyn. 

while the red keep and KL had to openly face tens of thousands of rebellion army. 

which one do you prefer to hide? 

 

[theMADdestScientist_]

13 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

lyanna was well hidden in a very secret place which even took a lot of time for Ned and White Bull to find. not to mention that nobody else out of the whole country has ever knew or found her. including Doran and Oberyn. 

while the red keep and KL had to openly face tens of thousands of rebellion army. 

which one do you prefer to hide? 

 

You make a good point, indeed, she was well hidden, but it wasn't she, it was "them" if i remember correctly, wasn't she pregnant? leaving a pregnant woman with no protection, i don't know if i would do that, especially with a rebellion going around, a time where everyone was fighting against someone.

[devilish]

17 hours ago, The Hoare said:

"Barbaric" is a buzzword that has lost it's original meaning. Just because something is considered wrong by one culture self-declared civilised, doesn't mean it is inherently bad.

Pillaging is pretty much half the reason for wars. What's the point of fighting if you can't take the spoils?

Ned claimed she was following his orders, but Catelyn's POV shows otherwise. She decided to take Tyrion as hostage only after he recognized her in a inn. 

Either way, neither a Stark, Tully or Arryn has any right to judge the son of a LP, only the King could do it.

 

Remember that Tywin attacked the Riverlands before Robert died, there was  no reason for a rescue mission before Cersei accused Lord Eddard of treason.

 

To attack the Vale you need to smash the power of the Riverlands first.

Its still Ned's responsibility. Its the medieval times dude ie wives are their husband's property. He could have ordered his wife to stay home and put guards around her to make sure she didn't leave. Considering how crazy the Tully girls are, then that would have been a good idea all along

The reason why Tywin invaded the Riverlands was not because of what Cat did but purely to take a weak region with strong allies off the grid before the two big brothers (Vale and the North) could react. Edmure would have made a magnificent hostage for Tywin, which could have been used to pit the Vale against the North or made them both to kneel. 

[purple-eyes]

7 hours ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

You make a good point, indeed, she was well hidden, but it wasn't she, it was "them" if i remember correctly, wasn't she pregnant? leaving a pregnant woman with no protection, i don't know if i would do that, especially with a rebllion going around, a time where everyone was fighting against someone.

So which group needs better protection? 

a well-hidden pregnant woman? 

or a very frail and sick woman with a newborn baby and three-year old toddler? 

[theMADdestScientist_]

Just now, purple-eyes said:

So which group needs better protection? 

a well-hidden pregnant woman? 

or a very frail and sick woman with a newborn baby and three-year old toddler? 

Depends, who has the biggest castle and the largest army? if i remember correctly, Rhaegar was marching with 40 thousand men, the fact that he lost the battle is another story.

[John Doe]

18 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

We all know that when your family agrees for you to marry a womanizing drunken money incompetent wastrel with a big axe, you should stay sold, no matter how unwilling you are. Your talents should be reduced to your pedigree and your wombs fertility. 

We all know that when an old creepy dude wishes to use your womb for his prophecy because his wife nearly died for his baby triplet craze you should comply, even if he keeps you locked in a tower and leaves you to wage war on your family. Your live should be reduced to creating a Stark/Targaryen breed because a book said so I guess. 

[purple-eyes]

 

1 hour ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

Depends, who has the biggest castle and the largest army? if i remember correctly, Rhaegar was marching with 40 thousand men, the fact that he lost the battle is another story.

he and his army were at trident. they were not guading the KL. in fact, it might be more accurate to say that Rhaegar is using 40000 men to guard Lyanna from Robert and Ned. 

 

 

[theMADdestScientist_]

Just now, purple-eyes said:

 

he and his army were at trident. they were not guading the KL. in fact, it might be more accurate to say that Rhaegar is using 40000 men to guard Lyanna from Robert and Ned. 

 

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

Rhaegar spoke only 3 times during five books, any discussion about this character is never easy.

One thing though, you focus too much on Lyanna, as if she wasn't pregnant, and her child meaning nothing to the rebels. But by the end of the rebellion we knew very well how children of fallen families are treated.

The truth is, Ned and Robert are only two persons, there were other people fighting in that war, because a war don't revolve around one or two individuals, one cannot afford to take any chances.

 

[purple-eyes]

48 minutes ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

Rhaegar spoke only 3 times during five books, any discussion about this character is never easy.

One thing though, you focus too much on Lyanna, as if she wasn't pregnant, and her child meaning nothing to the rebels. But by the end of the rebellion we knew very well how children of fallen families are treated.

The truth is, Ned and Robert are only two persons, there were other people fighting in that war, because a war don't revolve around one or two individuals, one cannot afford to take any chances.

 

Nobody in that world (except people in TOJ) during the war knows there is a child in Lyanna's belly. You know because you are a reader. 

so yes. her child means nothing to rebells because it does not exist as far as they know.

 

[theMADdestScientist_]

6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Nobody in that world (except people in TOJ) during the war knows there is a child in Lyanna's belly. You know because you are a reader. 

so yes. her child means nothing to rebells because it does not exist as far as they know.

 

But it exists, that is enough...

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 2/6/2017 at 6:46 PM, Emie said:

A while back I made a post about how terrible of a person Rhaegar was for abandoning Elia and their kids and basically starting a war that killed thousands. While I'm still displeased with what he did, I actually think he was a MUCH better man than Robert. Not only was Robert a drunken womanizing moron who put his country in debt, but let's face it, he never actually loved Lyanna. I've noticed that some people like to make Robert out to be this romantic tragic hero, but was he really? Ned himself even said that Robert never really knew Lyanna. She was very intelligent, kind, funny and had a great "fire" about her as Ned would say. Lyanna is in fact the type of woman that turns Robert off. He preferred a woman who would sit pretty and keep her mouth shut while he does whatever he wants. And we all know that was not Lyanna at all. She would definitely have a thing or two to say to him about his escapades. Her fire would have driven him mad. He only "loved" her because she was physically beautiful and he would become part of the Stark family and be a brother to Ned. 

Rhaegar on the other had probably did see Lyanna's fire and was in fact truly in love with her and who she was. He saw her as a human being and not as an object, which makes him better than Robert. That among other things, he most likely would have been a very intelligent and competent ruler who obviously would have been SO much better than his mad father. 

One fictional dead character that by their actions are responsible for  the deaths of thousands of people is somehow better than another dead fictional character that is also responsible for the deaths of thousands? Whatever you need to do to get through a story with no real good or bad characters dude. 

[Emie]

Alright, I suppose I made this post in more of a spur of the moment day because I had been thinking about the dynamics of Robert and Lyanna and just felt very angry, so I just spurted it all out. Anyway, I guess Rhaegar wasn't a "great" person in general, but when I said he was a "better" man, I meant more of a better romantic partner for Lyanna. Robert was crude and sleeping around even while Lyanna was "kidnapped" among other things. Rhaegar on the other hand, was kind, gentle, possibly didn't sleep around and Lyanna probably felt moved by how much of a gentleman he was. I'm not surprised one bit if Lyanna decided to run away with Rhaegar. In her eyes he was a way out, otherwise she would be trapped with a man she never loved and be unhappy. 

As to some people questioning why I think Robert saw her as more of an object. Well just look at the way he talks about her, especially with how he thinks she would never object to anything he'd do. Even Ned told him he was wrong, and again, he flat out told him that he really didn't know her. "He didn't know her fire". As Ned would say. I think from everything we do know about her from the five books that are out, Lyanna would be a lot like Cersei in the sense of not taking ANY of his crap and Robert would be annoyed with that. He truly didn't know her at all to not anticipate her reactions, therefore he didn't really love her. 

And yes, Lyanna was a lot like Arya and Sansa. (Although the Sansa that's romantic is more of "early Sansa" since Sansa gets MUCH better in later books and becomes an awesome character.)