Rhaegar was WAY better than Robert

[KarlDanski]

2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Exactly, Cersei might be a soulless harpy, but violence has no place in a partnership.

And he would have beaten Lyanna as well, because Lyanna would have voiced her frustration with his philandering than Cersei. Granted, Lyanna would have likely hit back, but that doesn't make it better.

Violence may not have place in a "relationship" if you can call Robert and Cersei's marriage, but neither does incest, cuckolding, killing your husband, not stopping your husbands best friend from being killed etc. And for what started this bad marriage? Robert drunkenly calling Cersei "Lyanna". We also have no evidence to support if Robert would of hit Lyanna had they be married. Sure he had a bastard previously, and probably many more before the end of the war, but we don't know if he would of become true to Lyanna as he imagines himself. Hell, had they been married, they might of hit off great as you can imagine they would like the same things like horses, hunting etc, but this is all speculation. BTW, I'm not saying that Robert was a good king, or a moral person, he was completely devoid of sympathy to the deaths of "Aegon", Rhaenys, and Elia, calling them dragonspawn. He was a drunk, whore, and led his kingdom into debt, but he's still not as bad as some Targaryen kings, but he wasn't as good as some either.

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, KarlDanski said:

Violence may not have place in a "relationship" if you can call Robert and Cersei's marriage, but neither does incest, cuckolding, killing your husband, not stopping your husbands best friend from being killed etc. And for what started this bad marriage? Robert drunkenly calling Cersei "Lyanna". We also have no evidence to support if Robert would of hit Lyanna had they be married. Sure he had a bastard previously, and probably many more before the end of the war, but we don't know if he would of become true to Lyanna as he imagines himself. Hell, had they been married, they might of hit off great as you can imagine they would like the same things like horses, hunting etc, but this is all speculation. BTW, I'm not saying that Robert was a good king, or a moral person, he was completely devoid of sympathy to the deaths of "Aegon", Rhaenys, and Elia, calling them dragonspawn. He was a drunk, whore, and led his kingdom into debt, but he's still not as bad as some Targaryen kings, but he wasn't as good as some either.

If Robert backhanded Cersei to shut her up, you can bet he'd have beaten an outspoken hot-head like Lyanna. To say otherwise is to imply that Cersei brought the abuse on herself, and deserved it. Or is that what you were going for when you listed all of Cersei's faults in the marriage?

[KarlDanski]

Could you find me the conversation of when he slapped her? If it's the same as the TV show, then I know what you talking about. I'm not saying that she deserved it, but I'm not saying she is the innocent one. The previous events before the slap were she made Robert order Lady's death, and lied about the circumstances of Ned Starks men being killed by Jaime. She doesn't care for Tyrion, but still. Like I said before, didn't deserve it, but wasn't innocent. I doubt he would of slapped Lyanna, even if she did voice her opinion, the lack of evidence to support him hitting Lyanna is nothing, and the marriage between Cersei and Robert started off bad, they were both unhappy while Robert would be happy with Lyanna, while Lyanna being happy has is difficult to predict.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

4 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

MMMMMMmm....no.

Look at the real world, wars never have one single cause. There's just powder kegs that wait for a spark to blow them up.

Like do you really think WW I wouldn't have happened if that Archduke guy wouldn't have been assassinated?

And it's the same with RR. Between Mad King Aerys, Rhaegar's schemes to get rid of him, Arryn's and Stark's "Southron Ambitions", Tywin's power brokering and Varys' schemes to do...something.... the poop was going to hit the fan no matter where Lyanna Stark would have been. 

The same with the War of the 5 Kings, war was on the horizon long before Lysa slipped her hubby the poison or Joffrey chopped off Ned's head.

They grew up like brothers, so we are talking a relationship that's on a family level in all but blood, people tend to overlook the failings of those that are very close to them.

In addition people change over time and feelings, as well as relationships can be very, very complex. Ned's not a woman, so the way Robert relates to women wouldn't have had any effect on Ned when they grew up together. it would have effected him if the Robert/Lyanna marriage would have gone trough, and it would not have been pretty, but that's a what if scenario.

Looking at Ned's POV chapter I find it pretty clear that Ned loved Robert, but was at the same time very, very shocked and repulsed at what Robert had become, I'd even go so far as to say that Ned as we see him in GoT resented Robert a fair bit.

Now how much of this was Robert degeneration from his supposed former self and how much was it just Ned now being able to see Robert's character from the perspective of a rational, responsible adult?

I don't think Robert was a "bully", truth be told I have a hard time picturing Robert getting enjoyment from cruelty or by mistreating someone who's weaker than him. He is inconsiderate of and oblivious to the feelings of others, but there is no malice or pettiness  in his behavior.

As to scumbag...well... we know from Lyanna's reaction to the news of her engagement that he didn't treat women well. Again I don't think there was malice or active mistreatment from Robert's part, but the obliviousness and inconsideration.

Robert wouldn't have been a good or loyal husband to Lyanna and it would not have been much better than Robert and Cersei, not in the long run. And that would have gotten very, very ugly with Ned and Brandon.

 

You must not have read everything I said.

"One could make the case that if Rhaegar didn't do what he did the way he did it the war would have never started when it did"

Meaning Rhaegar running of with or kidnapping Lyanna when he did is what sparked the war whether it was going to happen later or not has little to do with the point I made. If Rhaegar didn't do what he did when he did it no one could have blamed any part of Robert's Rebellion on him.

Your making a whole lot of assumptions when it comes to Robert/Lyanna and Rhaegar/Lyanna. Robert never claimed to have loved Cersei like he loved Lyanna. Robert is not known for being a liar, if he said he would have been good to Lyanna maybe he would have. We will never know will we?

Rhaegar remains an enigma, we only have opinions of the man he was from people who knew him, opinions that could be bias. For all we know he charmed Lyanna with sweet words impregnated her then locked her in a tower while she was pregnant with no Maester. We don't know what happen with them yet do we?
 

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, KarlDanski said:

Rhaegar: Aegon. What better name for a king? Elia: Will you make a song for him? Rhaegar: He has a song. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire. There must be one more. The dragon has three heads.

Rhaegar was obsessed at least somewhat about the Azor Ahai prophecy. His asphyxiation on 3 heads of a dragon proves so, if we're to understand that Lyanna was suppose to birth a third dragon, then that means that he was willing to take anothers wife, impregnate her, and lead to a war.

I'm assuming this is in reply to my post?

The quote you gave is seems to be the basis in all these characterisations of Rhaegar as prophecy-mad. But everyone forgets this bit:

"He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say"

And if we cut out the parts that Rhaegar says while looking straight at Dany, the scene goes like this: 

Elia: will you make a song for him?

Rhaegar: *goes to play a song by the window*

If that's not a hint that the parts that reference the prophecy were only part of the vision and not something that actually played out, I don't know what is. Also, if we accept that the whole scene as true, then we have to assume Elia was in on this prophecy "three heads" business, because she didn't immediately say "wtf you on about?"

1 hour ago, KarlDanski said:

You can't say Rhaegar was a all-around cool guy, but say Robert wasn't, they were both good guys to their friends. Ned Stark, and Jon Connington are too examples of life long friends the two were able to have. You don't gain the loyalty of others like Robert did by being what you think he is. By saying Robert doesn't get things done, you forget to mention getting the rebellion done, the Ironborn rebellion done, and killing Rhaegar.

You misread my post. I didn't say Rhaegar was a cool-guy, I said Robert was.

One of Robert's most notable qualities is that he's allergic to responsibility and work. That doesn't mean he can't even put his shoes on, but he'd let someone else do it do it for him if he could.

2 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

Rhaegar should of did his duty to his house, and not have taken Lyanna Stark, and started a war. He should of did his duty by staying with Elia Martell, but he didn't, because he was obsessed with a prophecy of him needing 3 heads of a dragon.

Yes, he should have. And Lyanna should have married Robert without a fuss. And Brandon should have not demanded the crown prince's head like an idiot. And Aerys should have...a lot of things. But GRRM is writing about people, not mindless automatons who are motivated only by the desire to not create drama. He also invites us to question a system in which children have no free-will when it comes to who they want to marry and reproduce with.

[Lion of the West]

19 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

One could make the case that if Rhaegar didn't do what he did the way he did it the war would have never started when it did.

However Robert's War Hammer did finish it. After Rhaegar fell the loyalists cause was lost and Tywin made his move to support Robert.

I agree that Rhaegar set the boll in motion but it was Aerys who decided to murder those people and then Jon called his banners, both men acting without influence from Rhaegar. If Aerys had been wise and sensible then the issues would simply not have gone to war. Likewise if Jon Arryn had not thought the issue, unlikely as it might sound, worth fighting over.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

16 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I agree that Rhaegar set the boll in motion but it was Aerys who decided to murder those people and then Jon called his banners, both men acting without influence from Rhaegar. If Aerys had been wise and sensible then the issues would simply not have gone to war. Likewise if Jon Arryn had not thought the issue, unlikely as it might sound, worth fighting over.

I can agree with that. Rhaegar and possibly Lyanna made an unwise decision that lead to Brandon Stark making an even worse decision that lead to the Mad King making a Mad King like decision that lead to Jon Arryn making, in my opinion, an honorable decision even it if meant war.

It would have been interesting to see how things would have played out if Rhaegar didn't run with or kidnap Lyanna. I think a lot would have depended on what the Reach and the Westerlands thought of everything. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, KarlDanski said:

Could you find me the conversation of when he slapped her? If it's the same as the TV show, then I know what you talking about. I'm not saying that she deserved it, but I'm not saying she is the innocent one. The previous events before the slap were she made Robert order Lady's death, and lied about the circumstances of Ned Starks men being killed by Jaime. She doesn't care for Tyrion, but still. Like I said before, didn't deserve it, but wasn't innocent. I doubt he would of slapped Lyanna, even if she did voice her opinion, the lack of evidence to support him hitting Lyanna is nothing, and the marriage between Cersei and Robert started off bad, they were both unhappy while Robert would be happy with Lyanna, while Lyanna being happy has is difficult to predict.

Cersei's face was a study in contempt. "What a jape the gods have made of us two," she said. "By all rights, you ought to be in skirts and me in mail."

Purple with rage, the king lashed out, a vicious backhand blow to the side of the head. She stumbled against the table and fell hard, yet Cersei Lannister did not cry out. Her slender fingers brushed her cheek, where the pale smooth skin was already reddening. On the morrow the bruise would cover half her face. "I shall wear this as a badge of honor," she announced.

"Wear it in silence, or I'll honor you again," Robert vowed. He shouted for a guard. Ser Meryn Trant stepped into the room, tall and somber in his white armor. "The queen is tired. See her to her bedchamber." The knight helped Cersei to her feet and led her out without a word.

 

He hit her because she emasculated him, and he followed that up with further threats to shut her up. Then he infantilises her by ordering her to bed. It had nothing to do with Cersei's treatment of him or of others, and everything to do with his need to show his dominance in their relationship. It's clear Robert would have had no qualms about beating Lyanna when she disagrees with him too much (except where his relationship with Ned was concerned).

 

ETA: You say you're not trying to imply Cersei deserved it, but then you emphasize her innocence (or lack thereof). What does her lying about Ned or her apathy towards Tyrion have anything to do with being the victim of abuse? Is she somehow less of a victim because she wasn't "pure"?

[KarlDanski]

This is a "medieval" world, by what she is doing, she is embarrassing the King infront of his hand, and going against his orders. In the modern world, its unacceptable, and she didnt deserve it for the comment, but back then, that was questioning a kings authority. In hindsight, some people support Robert hitting her as she did far worse crimes against him, but the book text also says that Robert rarely hit her. Also, considering Robert worshipped the very ground Lyanna stood on unlike Cersei which was a loveless political marriage, I doubt he would hit her, because it would make Ned hate him. BTW, killing the husband is probably worse than a few slaps for a character most agree is bad or evil.

[Orphalesion]

7 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

Violence may not have place in a "relationship" if you can call Robert and Cersei's marriage, but neither does incest, cuckolding, killing your husband, not stopping your husbands best friend from being killed etc. And for what started this bad marriage? Robert drunkenly calling Cersei "Lyanna". We also have no evidence to support if Robert would of hit Lyanna had they be married. Sure he had a bastard previously, and probably many more before the end of the war, but we don't know if he would of become true to Lyanna as he imagines himself. Hell, had they been married, they might of hit off great as you can imagine they would like the same things like horses, hunting etc, but this is all speculation. BTW, I'm not saying that Robert was a good king, or a moral person, he was completely devoid of sympathy to the deaths of "Aegon", Rhaenys, and Elia, calling them dragonspawn. He was a drunk, whore, and led his kingdom into debt, but he's still not as bad as some Targaryen kings, but he wasn't as good as some either.

Please show me where I defended Cersei or said she was not to blame? They were forced to marry so I am willing to overlook things like the drunken call of Lyanna. But physical violence is on a level which you simply don't go in my book.

And no it's not because Cersei is a woman and Robert's a man or some BS like that. I'd be as critical if Cersei was smacking Robert around drunk or sober. 

And people don't magically lose their character flaws and vices only because they get to marry their "One True Love"^tm That's what way too many people think and believe when they marry and then end up miserable and/or divorced.

In addition to that, Lyanna's reaction pretty much tells us that Robert didn't love Lyanna the person, not really, he loved Lyanna the ideal. And that ideal would have been shattered.

Robert was drunk, Robert was a whore, Robert was a self-pitying, self-involved creature and that doesn't magically change only because you paste Lyanna into Cersei's place.

He would have been a drunken mess, he would have publicly coveted with women, made a fool out of himself and made a fool out of Lyanna. Now do you imagine Lyanna, with what we know of her character, to simply play Margaery and sit there smiling while all that happened? 

Because I don't. I picture her being very loud and very outspoken about her discontent. VERY loud, very direct, very outspoken, more than Cersei ever was.

And that's where I'm certain that Robert would have hit Lyanna. Because those were the situations when Robert hit Cersei. Since, as I said, Robert doesn't go around being actively malicious to people, and from the examples in the text we know Robert hit Cersei pretty much to "shut her up" when he was at the end of his very limited social capacities to deal with her.

And he would have reached that end with Lyanna, probably even sooner.

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

You must not have read everything I said.

"One could make the case that if Rhaegar didn't do what he did the way he did it the war would have never started when it did"

Meaning Rhaegar running of with or kidnapping Lyanna when he did is what sparked the war whether it was going to happen later or not has little to do with the point I made. If Rhaegar didn't do what he did when he did it no one could have blamed any part of Robert's Rebellion on him.

I have read everything you wrote, it's just not a very good argument: "when it did" So it wouldn't have started on that particular, exact day, in that particular, exact way. Would that have made anything that happened less horrible? Rhaegar was already guilty anyway for his scheming to depose of Aerys, which Aerys knew about and which agitated and destabilized him further. 

War would have happened during that point and with something as horrible as war it's pretty unimportant whether it happens at one particular point or six months later. Maybe Elia and her children wouldn't have been slaughtered (in the chaos of war who knows?) but innocents would have died in horrible ways.

As to Robert and Lyanna; see above, there was no way it would ever have worked. Robert would have needed someone of Margaery's level of compliance.

[theblackdragonI]

10 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

 As for Robert, we saw what he was like. He was charming and an all-round cool guy to hang out with, but "get the job done" is the exact opposite of Robert's MO. Unless you're referring to draining a goblet, that is - he got that job done quite thoroughly.

That's the thing, we don't know what they were doing all that time. I mean, they were making Jon, obviously, but they couldn't have been at it 24/7. I assume at least some of the time must have been spent on gathering bannermen, since he didn't show up to battle alone. Joining the war was him trying to end the bloodshed and facing his actions, by the way. He was back to doing his duties to his House.

He was also pretty good at crushing dudes with his warhammer.

Yeah I guess he could have been rallying support. I don't understand why he didn't make a detour to Storm's End though and collect some of the Reachmen. Him leaving the Tower after the Battle of the Bells and the rebels uniting is a little bit too late. Better late than never though so props to him for trying, just would have been better if he brought Lyanna to Dragonstone or somewhere closer that he could be in control.

[KarlDanski]

How old was Robert around the rebellion? 15? 16? I bet 75% of the male population in the world would drink and have sex if given the opportunity. We as human beings are dynamic and can change, even moreso in our teens. Would Robert hit Lyanna? Maybe, maybe not. Would he of stopped drinking and whoring if Lyanna asked? Maybe, maybe not. We dont know any more about Roberts possible changes as Rhaegars beliefs and treatment of Lyanna. We do know that Robert and Cerseis marriage was an unhappy one, and both did wrong, Robert hit Cersei, Cersei fucked her brother, Robert whored, Cersei whored, Robert hit her more, Cersei killed him. Neither are innocent, and both have faults.

[theblackdragonI]

1 minute ago, KarlDanski said:

How old was Robert around the rebellion? 15? 16? I bet 75% of the male population in the world would drink and have sex if given the opportunity. We as human beings are dynamic and can change, even moreso in our teens. Would Robert hit Lyanna? Maybe, maybe not. Would he of stopped drinking and whoring if Lyanna asked? Maybe, maybe not. We dont know any more about Roberts possible changes as Rhaegars beliefs and treatment of Lyanna. We do know that Robert and Cerseis marriage was an unhappy one, and both did wrong, Robert hit Cersei, Cersei fucked her brother, Robert whored, Cersei whored, Robert hit her more, Cersei killed him. Neither are innocent, and both have faults.

Think he was in his early twenties, maybe twenty-one. Rest is bang on though. We don't know much about Lyanna but from what we do know she was a proud woman like Cersei. A long-term marriage to Robert could have easily ended up with the two of them hating each other. Although Robert having legitimate children might have made him stop whoring and drinking as much. Hell, if Lyanna lived he might have had a better control over his urges.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

22 hours ago, The Wolves said:

To the bolded, then Robert should have never taken the crown if he didn't want it. The rebels didn't start the war out for the crown(as far as we know)it was to save their necks, so why take something you never wanted? 

And Robert fought that war to save his own life not for Lyanna, or the innocent men that Aerys murdered unjustly it was to save his own neck. 

 

He was the most eligible. That much is certain. And his lords and bannermen agreed that being the eldest of a line related to the Targaryens made him the rightful king.

Imagine Robert says, 'nah, I don't want that pointy chair'. What do you think happens then.....? 

 

22 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Oh, please! He used Lyanna's death as an excuse for his behaviour, but he's always enjoyed living in excess and shirking responsibility. He was a jolly drunk, not someone who drank to keep the demons away.

We can't assume Lyanna was being kept from her family. There's no info on what she or Rhaegar were doing that entire time.

Nope. He loved Lyanna. It was superficial but he lusted for her above all others. If their wedding went ahead as planned, and 3/5 of Ned's family hadn't been essentially wiped out with their entire family condemned as traitors and sentenced to death then Robert could of spent his entire life doing all those things he liked without ever being King. 

We can't assume anything. Agreed. What was Ned and Robert and John Arryn and basically everybody else suppose to think? Remember it's Westeros.

 

22 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

And to answer your question, Rhaegar was a strong and honourable prince, fighting to keep his wife and two young children safe OR Rhaegar was a brave and handsome prince, fighting to save his beloved from a loveless marriage to womanising boor. This is pretty much how just about every character has viewed Rhaegar. Granted, we've only heard from a few characters, but everything so far suggests Rhaegar was well loved by the realm.

 To quote you again, 'Oh please'....

You've just said not to assume and this is one massive assumption. People believe what they want to believe. It's usually more to do with how the beholder projects their views as opposed to what in-fact took place. The Westerossi do not view eloping or kidnapping as honorable so I don't know how or on what basis you can assert that.

'Fighting to save his beloved form a loveless marriage'.... Again. We have no evidence at all to support that was what Rhaegar was trying to do. And if he was, why wouldn't he of spoken to Ned or Brandon or Rickard? He was their prince.

It was more likely that Rhaegar turned his attention to Lyanna when it became apparent the wife he already had (Elia) couldn't bare another child. The dragon must have three heads. 

I cannot and will not say that Robert was a better King than Rhaegar could of been. As for being a better man: I think both wanted Lyanna for very selfish reasons and were happy to go to war over it. Rhaegar died a hero for many. Robert lived long enough to make a fool of himself. What Rhaegar would of gone on to do, what he did with Lyanna, he reasoning for keeping everything a secret is all a mystery. 

[Steel Stag]

I think Robert and Ned were both 18 years old during the time when the war started. When the war was over, they were 20. This is also a reason why Robert was such a differen't man during this time. He was still very young and changed a lot over the years, due to his bad marriage with Cersei and his sadness because of Lyannas death. I believe that he would have been a much happier man and better ruler, if Lyanna would still be alive. He might have cheated on her, but he would not hate her as much as he hated Cersei.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

22 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Please show me where I defended Cersei or said she was not to blame? They were forced to marry so I am willing to overlook things like the drunken call of Lyanna. But physical violence is on a level which you simply don't go in my book.

And no it's not because Cersei is a woman and Robert's a man or some BS like that. I'd be as critical if Cersei was smacking Robert around drunk or sober. 

And people don't magically lose their character flaws and vices only because they get to marry their "One True Love"^tm That's what way too many people think and believe when they marry and then end up miserable and/or divorced.

In addition to that, Lyanna's reaction pretty much tells us that Robert didn't love Lyanna the person, not really, he loved Lyanna the ideal. And that ideal would have been shattered.

Robert was drunk, Robert was a whore, Robert was a self-pitying, self-involved creature and that doesn't magically change only because you paste Lyanna into Cersei's place.

He would have been a drunken mess, he would have publicly coveted with women, made a fool out of himself and made a fool out of Lyanna. Now do you imagine Lyanna, with what we know of her character, to simply play Margaery and sit there smiling while all that happened? 

Because I don't. I picture her being very loud and very outspoken about her discontent. VERY loud, very direct, very outspoken, more than Cersei ever was.

And that's where I'm certain that Robert would have hit Lyanna. Because those were the situations when Robert hit Cersei. Since, as I said, Robert doesn't go around being actively malicious to people, and from the examples in the text we know Robert hit Cersei pretty much to "shut her up" when he was at the end of his very limited social capacities to deal with her.

And he would have reached that end with Lyanna, probably even sooner.

I have read everything you wrote, it's just not a very good argument: "when it did" So it wouldn't have started on that particular, exact day, in that particular, exact way. Would that have made anything that happened less horrible? Rhaegar was already guilty anyway for his scheming to depose of Aerys, which Aerys knew about and which agitated and destabilized him further. 

War would have happened during that point and with something as horrible as war it's pretty unimportant whether it happens at one particular point or six months later. Maybe Elia and her children wouldn't have been slaughtered (in the chaos of war who knows?) but innocents would have died in horrible ways.

As to Robert and Lyanna; see above, there was no way it would ever have worked. Robert would have needed someone of Margaery's level of compliance.

Again your assuming things that you have no way of knowing would happen. Your argument is based on theories and what ifs.

My point and "argument" was simple from the very beginning. Rhaegar kidnapping or running off with Lyanna sparked a chain of events that lead to a war that put Robert Baratheon on the Iron Throne overthrowing the Targaryen dynasty. How is any of this wrong or even an argument? What could or would have happened is not relevant to the point I was making.

 As to Robert and Lyanna see above as well, again your making assumptions based on your opinions. Could they have worked out as Lord and Lady of Storm's End or King and Queen? Neither me nor you will ever know, speculate all you want you'll never be proven right or wrong. 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

15 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

This is a "medieval" world, by what she is doing, she is embarrassing the King infront of his hand, and going against his orders. In the modern world, its unacceptable, and she didnt deserve it for the comment, but back then, that was questioning a kings authority. In hindsight, some people support Robert hitting her as she did far worse crimes against him, but the book text also says that Robert rarely hit her. Also, considering Robert worshipped the very ground Lyanna stood on unlike Cersei which was a loveless political marriage, I doubt he would hit her, because it would make Ned hate him. BTW, killing the husband is probably worse than a few slaps for a character most agree is bad or evil.

I'm no historian, but I can assure you, a medieval King hitting his Queen would not be the norm. Remember, noble marriages were done to gain political support from the spouse's family. The Queen being slapped around would not go down well with her family, and the King would risk upsetting his biggest allies. Even Robert acknowledges what he did was wrong: "I should not have hit her. That was not … that was not kingly." (AGOT, Eddard X).

What does it matter if he hit her a couple times or a thousand? The latter is certainly worse than the former, but abuse is still abuse, no matter how many times it happens. And don't take his acknowledgment of wrongdoing, above, as any sort of indication that he wouldn't hit her again. He frames the whole thing as something Cersei brought on herself.

Robert didn't worship Lyanna. He was off populating Westeros with his bastards while she was supposedly being raped. He fantasised about an idealised version of Lyanna, his perfect dream girl who would let him do whatever the fuck he wanted. Ned notes that Robert didn't know the real Lyanna, who was brash and outspoken. They would have fought a lot more than he and Cersei. And he would have hit her, just as he did Cersei, because he wouldn't be thinking of Ned in a fit of rage.

[Hodor the Articulate]

 

14 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Nope. He loved Lyanna. It was superficial but he lusted for her above all others. If their wedding went ahead as planned, and 3/5 of Ned's family hadn't been essentially wiped out with their entire family condemned as traitors and sentenced to death then Robert could of spent his entire life doing all those things he liked without ever being King.

He created an idealised version of Lyanna and fantasised about her. He "loved" her as much as Sansa loved Joffrey or Garlan.

Yes, he would have spent the rest of his indulging himself, as he did when he was King. I'm not sure what point you're making.

14 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

 We can't assume anything. Agreed. What was Ned and Robert and John Arryn and basically everybody else suppose to think? Remember it's Westeros.

To quote you again, 'Oh please'....

You've just said not to assume and this is one massive assumption. People believe what they want to believe. It's usually more to do with how the beholder projects their views as opposed to what in-fact took place. The Westerossi do not view eloping or kidnapping as honorable so I don't know how or on what basis you can assert that.

'Fighting to save his beloved form a loveless marriage'.... Again. We have no evidence at all to support that was what Rhaegar was trying to do. And if he was, why wouldn't he of spoken to Ned or Brandon or Rickard? He was their prince.

It was more likely that Rhaegar turned his attention to Lyanna when it became apparent the wife he already had (Elia) couldn't bare another child. The dragon must have three heads. 

I cannot and will not say that Robert was a better King than Rhaegar could of been. As for being a better man: I think both wanted Lyanna for very selfish reasons and were happy to go to war over it. Rhaegar died a hero for many. Robert lived long enough to make a fool of himself. What Rhaegar would of gone on to do, what he did with Lyanna, he reasoning for keeping everything a secret is all a mystery. 

I didn't make an assumption. It's right there in the text that Rhaegar was well loved. Several characters view him as a tragic romantic hero. Only Robert and Bran consider him a rapist. Even Ned, who you'd think would curse his name, had a positive view of him. So while Lyanna being kidnapped and raped is the official story, it's clear that that version is not the universally accepted one.

I wrote what I wrote in parody to your post, which was in the POV of the people of Westeros, no? I don't actually believe Rhaegar was fighting for Lyanna, but that's one of the narratives some Westerosi believe. The reason Rhaegar joined the war is obvious: he was doing his duty and defending his House.

As for his motives with Lyanna...we don't know, but WoIaF implies they were both heading out to wherever and just bumped into each other in the Riverlands. Then something happened and they disappeared. That suggests their affair was unplanned. Of course, I take anything in WoIaF with a grain of salt. Still, I think there's little evidence to support this idea that Rhaegar was trying for three heads. I've said this countless times before, but it is strongly hinted that it is vision!Rhaegar who mentions three heads, not the real Rhaegar.

True, we can't know for sure how Rhaegar would have been on the throne, but we do know that Rhaegar was dutiful and bookish, while Robert is irresponsible and hot-blooded. Rhaegar's nature suggests he would have fitted the role better than Robert. And he would have at least tried to govern, unlike Robert. He wins by that alone.

As for who is the better man, I'm giving it to Rhaegar, based on what we've been told about their personalities.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

He created an idealised version of Lyanna and fantasised about her. He "loved" her as much as Sansa loved Joffrey or Garlan.

Yes, he would have spent the rest of his indulging himself, as he did when he was King. I'm not sure what point you're making.

I didn't make an assumption. It's right there in the text that Rhaegar was well loved. Several characters view him as a tragic romantic hero. Only Robert and Bran consider him a rapist. Even Ned, who you'd think would curse his name, had a positive view of him. So while Lyanna being kidnapped and raped is the official story, it's clear that that version is not the universally accepted one.

I wrote what I wrote in parody to your post, which was in the POV of the people of Westeros, no? I don't actually believe Rhaegar was fighting for Lyanna, but that's one of the narratives some Westerosi believe. The reason Rhaegar joined the war is obvious: he was doing his duty and defending his House.

As for his motives with Lyanna...we don't know, but WoIaF implies they were both heading out to wherever and just bumped into each other in the Riverlands. Then something happened and they disappeared. That suggests their affair was unplanned. Of course, I take anything in WoIaF with a grain of salt. Still, I think there's little evidence to support this idea that Rhaegar was trying for three heads. I've said this countless times before, but it is strongly hinted that it is vision!Rhaegar who mentions three heads, not the real Rhaegar.

True, we can't know for sure how Rhaegar would have been on the throne, but we do know that Rhaegar was dutiful and bookish, while Robert is irresponsible and hot-blooded. Rhaegar's nature suggests he would have fitted the role better than Robert. And he would have at least tried to govern, unlike Robert. He wins by that alone.

As for who is the better man, I'm giving it to Rhaegar, based on what we've been told about their personalities.

You give it to whomever you like. That isn't my issue. If I was forced to pick, I may pick the same. Throughout the books, Rhaegar is the stuff of legends. A great EVERYTHING. We actually get to meet Robert. Imagine we didn't. Imagine they both died on the Trident. 

The issue I have is with readers asserting that the man we met in aGoT is the same man Ned knew as a youth; The man he went to war for; The man he put on the IT. He clearly isn't. What Robert almost definitely was, is a man who was thought to be the example of his time. He was the man that other men wanted to be. Strong, brave, highly sexed. He could of fought a thousand battles and sired a million bastards. A wrecking ball of a man. The bloke we meet in aGoT is a fat lazy drunk. But his legend was known throughout the 7K as the most ferocious of warriors and a forgiving King. This in itself can secure peace for the realm. The Iron Born put it to the test, and Balon found out the hard way that the 7K really did follow their King.

As for dutiful and bookish, there are other characters with those qualities who wouldn't necessarily make a good king. Sam is bookish. Ned was dutiful. Stannis is both. All Dany has is three dragons. Is she dutiful or bookish? What about (f)Aegon? Is he truly a manufactured king with all the necessary qualities? Tyrion's meeting with him shows him to be as aggressive as Robert, flipping the Cyvasse table when soundly beaten.

There's a lot to consider before condemning a man. Food for thought....

Robert's parents died at sea returning from a mission where they were charged with finding a suitable wife for Rhaegar. Rhaegar goes on to abduct Lyanna. Which means as far as Robert is concerned, Rhaegar is responsible for the deaths of not only Lyanna but his parents too. And in a round-about way, his best friends brother and father or you could say his brother and father in-law to be, were also victims of Rhaegar.
So think, Robert's folks die finding a suitable bride for the prince. Robert remains loyal. Then, the prince goes and lays the crown of love and beauty in the lap of his betrothed. Robert 'hardens' with regards to Rhaegar, but does not speak out against him. Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna. Robert still does nothing. Lords Rickard and Brandon Stark are the ones to respond. The Starks are killed, cruely. Jon Arryn is ordered to deliver Ned and Robert to the mad king. Then, and only then does Robert turn and that's under the orders of his mentor Jon Arryn. 


Robert has a multitude or grievances against Rhaegar. I think if Rhaegar is the man the OP thinks he is, why didn't he point his sword at the mad king instead of innocent men, defending their innocent lords and bannermen? I suppose we'd end up going down the route of kinslaying being too abhorrent. But it seems he could cope with being a scoundrel who abducts women perfectly fine.

Becoming King: If anything, his ascension to the IT demonstrates the failing of Monarchy. It's a stupid idea that any country should be run by a warlord. Robert didn't say to himself one day, 'you know what, I fancy being King.' Instead, a series of events sent him down that path. If he could of chosen, he may of chosen Lyanna over all of it. I don't believe he wanted the throne or any of the responsibilities but peace rested on his shoulders. The war had to end. The kingdom needed it's King.

Alcoholism: It changes people. Warps their minds and makes monsters of them. I've had first-hand experience with this. It's not pretty. You are looking at the face of some one you love and they don't recognize you.. Cersei's POV in aFfC put's testament to that. She essentially becomes Robert. I'd actually suggest she's worse.

Does any of the above clear Roberts name as a drunk, abusive husband who was also a terrible father? No. Nothing can excuse it. But it does provide perspective on a central character. It does demonstrate something human. Something that's in all of us. It must be factored in, especially in a series of books where every character is a different shade of grey.

We must be careful dismissing GRRM's characters this way. Our perception of others, is a reflection of ourselves. 

[Aegon VII]

4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Snip

Is it just me or was Robert pretty justified in slapping cersei when he did, given the westerosi universe? He's the king and his wife is mocking him to his face showing absolutely no respect. That's a risk to all of westeros. If a man spoke to another man like that he would be hit in both our world and in westeros. As a feminist I have to believe we should hold cersei to this same standard.

Now whether Robert would have beat lyanna, we can't know for sure but I'd be willing to bet that it would not happen more than once. I don't think she would bring it out of him to begin with but of course she may have. If she did and he hit her I have a feeling lyanna would make it known in one way or another that it wasn't going to happen again. A man can have a knife and wife but he can't have both. Just like if Ramsay had the real arya I bet she wouldn't get beaten more than once, she'd kill him afterwards. To be grossly insensitive, people let their abusers do these things. Another example would be joff and marg, joff loved beating Sansa but he would never dream of hurting Margery. 

I just think we have better evidence of Roberts true character than a somewhat justified slap. He sends assassins out after dany, drinks and whores excessively and has neglected his duties as King. He's not evil, he's just a normal guy who was given everything once he became king. He's probably a good case study in the flaws of a monarchy, or at least ones recently established/usurped. Good soldiers don't always make good kings.

I think Robert is a normal guy, whereas we are led to believe that rhaegar is truly great. I think there is no question that rhaegar was better, and I would think those people who disagree with me have come to different conclusions about whom rhaegar is as a person. Robert is the known quantity, and he's really not that much for a prince like rhaegar to have to stack up to. He was a great man don't get me wrong, but we're comparing heroes here. People don't remember Robert like they do rhaegar.

Rhaegar's the man.