Preston Jacobs and the Purple Wedding

[John Suburbs]

25 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Forgive me if it's been discussed through the 9 pages I haven't read, but why would the Tyrells give a flying f*** about Tyrion?  I can see Littlefinger wanting to kill Tyrion to free up Sansa, but I can't see a logical reason the Tryells care about him.

GRRM also has a few proven inconsistencies, including some he's acknowledged (Jeyne's hips being an example) or things that are illogical but seem cool (like Robert's warhammer or Ice or a 14 year old picking up an adult by their throat). Personally, even drinking out of a 3 foot chalice one handed seems impossible in that scene. Practically being able to poison a chalice that size at a location designed to be the center of attention seems silly.  So does Olenna arranging for a specific piece of pie to be served to a specific guest ahead of time, or dissolving a crystalline substance in pie without disturbing it after being cooked (or trying to get it to pass unnoticed by the person eating it).  As is often the case with fiction, small details don't really work when hyper analyzed.

So what's more likely? The Tyrells were involved in a plot to kill Tyrion, a man fallen from real power with no real relevance to the Tyrells (with no eligible daughters, a claim on Casterly Rock in the family is not really possible), or that the Tyrells were eliminating Joffrey due to doubts about his ability to not go sadist on Margery (which could jeopardize putting Tyrell heirs on the throne). Tommen also allows faster potential political control for the Tyrell dynasty than the intractable Joffrey.

Tyrion is married to Sansa. After the Red Wedding, Sansa is the last surviving child of Ned Stark, the last Lord of Winterfell. So any child that Tyrion fathers on Sansa would become, by rights, the new lord. That would link House Lannister to the North by blood where it could raise levies, tap the region's abundant natural resources, and take advantage of its port on the Narrow Sea (White Harbor). Add this to its other recent gains in the Neck, the Riverlands, the Crownlands and the Stormlands, and this represents a direct threat to the hegemony that Highgarden has held in the realm for thousands of years. A hegemony, by the way, that both the Tyrells and Gardners maintained through marriages to other powerful families like the Redwynes and Hightowers.

So within Lady O's lifetime, Casterly Rock has gone from a relatively weak, largely quiet realm governed by kindly old Lord Tytos, to a military machine led by Mad Dog Tywin who doesn't just fight his foes and then pardon them but burns their lands to the ground, razes their castles and puts every last member of their houses to the sword, right down to the livery boys. To make matters worse, the Westerlands and the Reach share a common but largely ill-defined border more than 300 leagues long, which means Tywin now has the ability to, slowly but steadily, bleed lands and resources from the Reach through the Iron Throne, or through force if Highgarden resists.

This is what keeps Lady O up at night: the threat of an army derived from three-quarters of the realm burning the Reach and everything in it before they raze Highgarden and put an end to the Tyrell line. Not whether Margaery gets a black eye someday.

Scroll up just a bit for my take as to why dead Joffrey is a huge setback for Tyrell fortunes.

The pie is eminently easier than a three-foot chalice sitting in plain view of literally hundreds of people. Lady O could very easily arrange it so she knows exactly which pie is for Tyrion, and even has a high probability of knowing where he will take his one and only bite. She could tuck the poison into the filling in the blink of an eye without disturbing it in the slightest, and by the time Tyrion realizes something is wrong, it's too late.

[John Suburbs]

23 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

FYI, Garlan fits Renly's armor, who is described as the second coming of Robert who was an exceptionally tall man (Renly is supposed to be a few inches shorter, but he's still likely taller than 6 feet, a height I'd have no issue reaching while standing (6'3").  

Depending on how close I was to the chalice and how it blocked the view of my arm (if I'm there, quite reliably, especially with the bridge and groom cutting a cake in a different direction), that's easily doable. I'm also a fat ass who has to account for the depth of a gut that Garlan surely doesn't have, so he could get higher than I could.

Forgive me, it's been about a year since I've read the scene, but do the books ever give us an indication Margery wasn't involved?  She of course has the best opportunity to surreptitiously slip something into the chalice and then avoid consumption.

Six feet. Tall, but not exceptionally tall. And the challenge is not just to reach the lip, but to do so without being seen.

Try this. Stand a yardstick straight up on your kitchen table about an arm's length in and slightly off to either your left or right. Now see if you can figure out how you can reach the top without being seen by the two people standing right next to you, one of whom is exceptionally small and is looking upward at pigeons flying about the room.

Making the drop during the cutting is an intriguing idea, I'll admit, but while Tyrion says they are about a dozen places from the king, he doesn't say they are at the end of the table, which I think would be a relevant observation to make considering he also says he would be glad if there were a hundred spaces between him and Joffrey. So there are likely others farther down the line, and Garlan now has to think about hiding this move from them. Remember, the chalice is a good arm's reach into the table and off to one side.

As you said, it is very odd that Joffrey would be able to hoist the chalice, which is half full of wine, with one hand if the thing was thick gold and had little or no stem. So the text indicates that the chalice is actually rather slight, with a base and a skinny stem topped with a cup that holds maybe four or five times a normal glass. So in this case I don't see how a grown man would be able to hide his arm behind it while reaching around to get his hand all the way to the top.

Second of all, we have to understand the enormous risk that Lady O is taking when she approves of this plan. There are literally hundreds of people in the room, with pigeons drawing their eyes in every direction, so the chances of being seen are astronomically high, and the consequences of being caught are dire: practically her entire family is in the throne room surrounded by Lannister guards.

Thirdly, we should remember that Garlan is an anointed knight, and his actions on the Blackwater disprove that he is a secretly craven knight like Boros Blount. So in this case it is completely out of character for Garlan the Gallant to stoop to a coward/woman/eunuch's weapon to kill a foe. He simply wouldn't do it.

Margaery was never near the chalice after the cutting ceremony. She could not have done it.

[JonSnow4President]

The idea that the wedding organizer can arrange a specific plate is ludicrous.  I've been to large catered events.  Even with multiple dessert or plate options, a specific plate isn't tied to a specific guest unless it requires specific cooking instructions. They're brought out on carts/treys and distributed by grabbing whatever balances best and giving it to the next guest [that ordered that food].

Further, isn't Olenna's involvement in the planning of the Wedding a show construct?  From what I recall of the books, Cersei is responsible for the organizing. 

The pie is every bit as problematic as you claim the wine is, and you refusing to admit that comes across as particularly thickheaded..  If a crystaline poison disolves in liquid, we have no reason to suspect it would dissolve completely in cooked food.  The outer layer of it might since pie is typically moist, but since there isn't real diffusion in solids (at least that I am aware of), it would likely be able to be detected (depends on how small the original stone was and on how thoroughly someone would chew). Add in the ridiculousness of the distribution you favor for some reason and I can't understand why you prefer the pie for the poisoned object that actually happened as opposed to the consumable that changes color to match the poison, even if you think it is contrived.

ETA after your response: I'm reaching on top of a 3 foot hutch on one side of the desk right now.  It's not hard. I'm a similar height and reach to the characters involved. 

Tell me.  When you're at a wedding, and the bride and groom are cutting the cake where it's not right in front of you, how many people at your table do you think would notice you stand up (perhaps for a better view)?  As long as you don't move suddenly, you can do amazing things when people aren't paying attention. Or even when they're trying to figure out how things are done. Humans are pretty damn oblivious, as much as we like to think otherwise. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But Cressen was looking into a normal-sized goblet in a well-lit room and he doesn't notice anything strange about the wine.

Again, just because Cressen doesn't comment on the wine being purple it doesn't mean you can say it was still red. We don't know. You can't use a lack of information to say it did or didn't change colors.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

First, the text makes it absolutely clear that the strangler is a contact poison, not a systemic one. By that, I mean it passes through the soft tissue of the throat and goes directly to work on the muscles. It does not pass the throat, enter the stomach, pass into the bloodstream, circulate throughout the body, and then back to the throat. If it did, then it wouldn't take affect on either victim for at least a minute.

The text does not make anything clear about the type of poison the Strangler is other than what Cressen gives us. 

Quote

Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim's face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.

You may be right that it is a contact poison. You probably are. However, it is still a fictional poison in a fantasy series. So all we know is what the text tells us about it. It tightens the throat, shutting off the windpipe. To me, it would make sense that IF Joff's was not as strong as Cressen's that Joff's throat began to tighten after his first drink. He then, with his throat tighter was able to take a bite of pie then remark on how dry it is. It probably would seem dry if you're throat was tighter than usual. He then takes another drink and dies. This makes sense.

You seem to be under the assumption that the two poisonings must occur exactly the same. Why? Two different Strangler poisons (they were most likely made separately) taken by two different people can have different results. 

How do you explain Joff's wine turning purple?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Which one are we talking about, before the cutting or after? Before was "drank deep, and set it on the table". After was "drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin."

So the first is indeterminate, but the second is clearly multiple chugs of what by now should be wine so poisoned it has turned purple.

You said this:

On 2/10/2017 at 0:31 PM, John Suburbs said:

Poisoning 2:

Joffrey: yanks chalice from Tyrion's hands, drinks long and deep multiple times; indeterminate amount of time, but while he is drinking:

The text does not say multiple times. It only says "Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin."

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

What my careful analysis does is remove two of your chief objections at once:

First, that the timeline between the pie entering Joffrey's mouth and his choking does not align with Cressen, and second, that the strangler can only be deployed with wine.

If you are right, and only wine can activate the strangler, then you have no choice but to begin the count at the moment Joffrey's washes the pie down with wine -- and then it dovetails perfectly with Cressen.

Why does it have to align with Cressen's poisoning? Two different people are consuming two different brands of Stranger, most likely created by two different people in two different (yet still similar) ways. The two different brands (and probably amounts) of Strangler are being placed into two different volumes of wine. Why do the two poisonings have to align the EXACT same way? 

[Colonel Green]

6 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

You'll notice that in none of those does the poison get smuggled in via Sansa's hairnet, nor do Littlefinger and the Tyrells cooperate with each other, because both of those ideas are pretty fucking ludicrous, pardon my French.

I admit I don't know why he'd have her wear the hairnet, but I can think of more plausible reasons for that than I can why the Tyrells would trust him for a second.

As GRRM outlined, the poison was in the hairnet to make Sansa the fall guy if need be.  That's what Sansa's whole plotline leading up to the wedding was setting up.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If and when he becomes a problem, there are all sort of ways to off him and make it look like an accident, and then Margy rules as Queen Regent until her son comes of age.

"If and when that becomes a problem", it will be blatantly obvious that the Tyrells killed him; nobody would be more cognizant of that than Cersei.  That's why they act pre-emptively.  Moreover, it's entirely possible, as Sansa realizes, that the situation will escalate past the point of no return before there's any time for more measured steps.

And Joffrey didn't just give Sansa a few black eyes and a cut lip.  He had had stripped and beaten in open court with steel swords by the Kingsguard, and had her beaten so regularly before that that she had developed a ranking of the Kingsguard knights in terms of how they handled it.  He is an uncontrollable sadist, who'll only get worse the older he gets.  Not for nothing is he compared to Aerys II.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Hogwash to that whole bit about Loras going bananas and killing Joffrey. This is nothing but Littlefinger spinning the whole tale again. 

No, not true.  That is Sansa's own intuition, one that Littlefinger later repeats.  The point of that is to show that Sansa is starting to operate on Littlefinger's analytical wavelength, and correctly perceived the inherent instability of the situation and the Tyrells' odd confidence in spite of this.

[Colonel Green]

5 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Well, who knows when the reveal will come, if it's coming at all. But this has happened before: the Jon Arryn case was done and dusted before ASOS, and then wham! we get new information that, if you want to be persnickety about it, doesn't change anything. After all, we already know that Littlefinger engineered conflict between the Starks and Lannisters, because we've seen him pull that shit with the knife, and we've got Tyrion's POV to tell us that he was lying.

That's not true.  The reveal of who really killed Jon Arryn significantly alters how one views the entire series, as well as, going forward, Littlefinger, the Lannisters (who, it turns out, didn't kill Arryn; while we knew Tyrion wasn't behind it, most readers thought Cersei was at that point), as well as our understanding of everything Lysa did over the course of the series.

The suggesting misconception around what happened at the Purple Wedding, on the other hand, is meaningless.  The only character who knows the current version of events is Sansa, and it really has nothing to do with any of her subsequent actions or motivations.

[SFDanny]

6 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Speaking for myself, whenever I talk about poison in the pocket, I mean that Olenna (or whoever) would have it in her own pockets. Isn't that easier than fishing it out of someone's hairnet, assuming that said person wears the hairnet at all?

But ease of access isn't the only question here, is it? Nor is it the most important. The hairnet gives two vital benefits that are denied if Lady Olenna brings it in in her pockets.

1. She could be searched and the poison could be found on her - thus incriminating her in the crime. With the poison in the hairnet she, and any co-conspirators who might also want access to the poison, only need carry the murder weapon in the amount they want and from the time they gather it from the hairnet to its use. No, search of their person entering the wedding, or leaving after the crime would incriminate them.
2. Sansa, as one of the chosen patsies, will have the murder weapon found on them in any search of the guests for the poison. Thereby guaranteeing any suspicion falling on Sansa and Tyrion will produce evidence showing their guilt, and not the guilt of the real murderers.

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

He wrote that episode though, so it's not as clear cut as that. Also, there's the SSM where he reserves the right to change it in future.

Don't you think though, if it is the case that Joffrey was the target, that the plot is full of holes?

Yeah but if you read that whole piece he's talking about the scene as a book scene quite a lot so could easily be talking on the scene as a whole and that it was his vision in both books and mummers adaption. The show writers take the piss with the plot, we know that, but If GRRM wrote  it then he may well have just been writing it out for the show just how he has it in the books, and the interview there certainly seems to imply this is exactly the case. 

I know the interview you mean where he reserves the right to change it in the future, but he reserves the right to change anything really that is open to interpretation, which is nearly every paragraph haha. 

The passage talks about how the QOT drops the poison in the wine, the changes he makes could simply mean that she passed it someone else to do it, or whatever, but it doesn't have to mean that she placed it in a slice of pie to kill Tyrion. I hope you guys prepare yourself that it just may never turn out that was the story. 

[SFDanny]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But you're talking about the plan to frame Sansa for the murder, right? Your comments here simply reinforce what I've been saying: the hairnet is only useful to give someone else an opportunity to take the poison without Sansa or anyone else seeing. If the plan from there is that she is going to get caught because, somehow or another, someone will connect the hairnet to the murder, then Lady Olenna's neck is on the line because of her "help" that day, which took place at the entrance to the throne room amid numerous other guests.

Why would any protest from Sansa about Lady Olenna "touching her hair" make anyone believe Sansa innocent of the crime? Sansa has the motive to kill Joffrey, and she has the actual weapon found upon her person. Her husband has threatened violence to the king, and has actually hit him on numerous occasions. The Tyrells and the old lady Olenna have no known motive for committing such a crime, and it would seem counterproductive to Highgarden's interests. It's absurd to think Sansa's story of "the old lady must have done it" and the "fool told me to wear the hairnet" would be believed by anyone. Nor is Tywin likely to jump to such an outrageous idea that would destroy the alliance that has brought him victory.

[Macgregor of the North]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Other posters on this board think Mance is Rhaegar or Strong Belwas is King Robert -- doesn't make them right.

What my careful analysis does is remove two of your chief objections at once:

First, that the timeline between the pie entering Joffrey's mouth and his choking does not align with Cressen, and second, that the strangler can only be deployed with wine.

If you are right, and only wine can activate the strangler, then you have no choice but to begin the count at the moment Joffrey's washes the pie down with wine -- and then it dovetails perfectly with Cressen.

Check.

I'm afraid it doesn't remove those objections at all.

You argue that Joff should fall in the exact same timeframe as Cressen which is nonsense for a start, but I forgot you are an expert on the Strangler. I prove that Joff actually takes longer than Cressen from the first time he eats pie, which is your poisoned item. Infact Joff is still strong enough to help himself to another piece, mention completely coherently that the pie is dry and thatit needs washing down, lift his hands to drink more wine, stay on his feet for a while pushing certain words out, then find the strength to lift his hands for another drink, while still on his feet. 

So after the first contact with the pie his reaction is 100% different from Cressens, fact. Take that one on the chin, it's useless as evidence. At this stage you must take into account different factors such as dilution, and how something you have absolutely no expertise on whatsoever can effect two different people in different timeframes, which no matter what you say, is quite possible. Check mate on that one.

Next.

I have never once typed that the Strangler can only be dissolved in wine, check the thread back. You keep saying this and I presume it's because you don't want to answer what I'm saying properly. 

I argue that anybody willing to acquire the Strangler for murder will go with what they have heard of the poison and everything known of the Strangler is that it is a crystallised poison that dissolves in drinks. 

To try something risky like dissolve it in foodstuffs is too risky for clever folks when it goes against the normal known use for such a poison.

No, if there is wine cups and wine aplenty at a feast, you can be sure that smart folks will be using said poisonous crystallised dissolving weapon the way they are surest of, the way it is know that the Strangler works, dissolving it in someone's drink. 

Cleared up finally for you I hope. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The first time we see Joffrey drink heavily is at his wedding; not at the feast in Winterfell, not at the riverside picnic during the tourney of the hand, not at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding. I'll go so far as to say the only time we ever see him take a sip of wine or anything else outside of his own wedding is that day on the Trident with Sansa. So during the time this whole plan is being concocted and right up to the moments before the poisoning, Joffrey has never been known to be a big drinker.

But as I said, I am certain you are wrong about the Strangler, but I'll again point out that your own theories cancel each other out. If the strangler can only be dissolved in wine, then the moment Joffrey drinks the wine after he has the pie in his mouth is the moment we start comparing the two poisons, and they match up nearly perfectly.

 

The only way someone could have poisoned the chalice is they had to be in exactly the right place at the right time. And in order to do that, they would have to know ahead of time that it would be placed exactly where it was -- not a foot to the left or the right -- and even then, it's a million-to-one shot to accomplishing this without being seen. We're talking about reaching over the lip of the three-foot chalice sitting plain as day on the table in front of literally hundreds of people, including two people who are looking up past the lip as the pigeons are flying around the room. Even if you accept that Garlan (and it is only Garlan, not "anybody" who is in position to even attempt this) could have done this virtually impossible thing (again, without being seen by not one of the hundreds of people in the room), it is downright ludicrous to think Lady O would give her go-ahead on this highly risky plan when practically her entire family is in the throne room surrounded by Lannister guards. And all to prevent possible mistreatment of Margaery that might not come for months or even years, long after she has born the new heir and cemented House Tyrell to the Iron Throne.

Lol, my explanation is easy. The remnants of whatever poison that was still in Joffrey's mouth had only entered the chalice seconds before, so the poison had not time to diffuse before the bulk of the wine spilled out. The dregs that were left contained either part or all of the crystal, or perhaps poisoned pie filling, that turned it purple.

So let me get this straight: the crystal is dropped into the wine and floats around on the top during the entire cutting, discoloring only the upper layers of wine. Then, after Joff has stirred the contents of the chalice nice and thoroughly, the poison sinks to the bottom like mud, leaving all the wine in the middle completely unaffected. This may hold up in the Red Queen's court in Wonderland, but anywhere else you'd be laughed out into the street.

Joff drinks heavily at the trident enough for Sansa to think that the wine has made him wild. They sit and drink quite a lot there so it's safe to assume that when Joffreys in the mood he likes to tank it back. That's just a readers observation though.

Were talking about the wedding here anyway where he is being watched all day by guests and a would be poisoner, and on this day, he basically has not stopped tanking back wine. On this day he is a wine monster, this is important for us to notice, and it shows a would be poisoner the most easy way to kill this fool is poison his wine on this day, as long as the timings right.

The chalice is perfect JS, you just can't see it. Even if Joff doesn't go over and argue with Tyrion, he still has to leave his place to cut the pie and leave the chalice alone. He can't cut a pie holding a massive chalice. Then after its placed in the wine all they need to do is wait, and manoeuvre things to suit timing. The chalice is on the dais while people are watching the pie being cut, because it's a bit further down the table still doesn't change much, the room is pure hectic so it's still more than possible to slip something in the chalice on the sly. Do you deny this is possible? Do you disagree with anything i just wrote there?.

JS, can you clarify something, do you think the wine was poisoned yes??. It certainly seems so with what you have just said. If this is so, do you think both wine and pie were poisoned?.

[Macgregor of the North]

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It doesn't stand to reason. If they wait to start cutting and plating pies until after the pigeons are loose, it would take several minutes for Tyrion to get his, and probably an hour or more before the entire room is served.

I see that you presume a lot, but this is Martin, so I am extremely careful with what I presume.

Tyrion provides a clear, unobstructed view of the entire scene, and at this point in the chapter, he is providing us with a moment-by-moment description of everything that happens, in real time. So the sequence is crystal clear. It goes: cut, pigeons, applause, music, twirl, pie. It doesn't say: cut, pigeons, applause, music, twirl, and then an army of pastry chefs marched into the room and started cutting pies for all the guests. Heck, they'd have to start pushing aside the high lords and ladies just to make enough room to cut all these pies and deliver them to the guests.

So with the pies being served so quickly after the cutting, and the person viewing the scene making no mention of any actual pies being cut and plated, the only logical conclusion is that they are already cut and plated and waiting to be served. And the only logical place for that to happen is somewhere behind the head table, right where Lady O happens to be standing the last time we see her.

There is no reason for Lady O to involve a servant, a family member or anyone else in this plot. The pie is either on a table waiting to be served, or at worst is already in the hands of a servant. All she has to do is make sure this one person is looking upward for a split second, and in goes the crystal. The wine, of course, requires Garlan to ensure that not one single person out of literally hundreds does not happen to spot him raising his arm to the chalice -- a virtually impossible task and way to risky for Lady O to jeopardize her entire family to prevent a possibility that hasn't even presented itself yet.

Who said they wait to start cutting after the pigeons are out and flying about?. There could be servants cutting the other pies as soon as they stop wheeling the other pie or pies out. I'm afraid you are the one who is presuming a lot, and not carefully either like you claim. You presume a massive amount of things in this theory of "yours", or Prestons, or whoever sit is lol. 

Ok, on to the next part. 

You have Olenna working alone, completely independent waiting with the poison crystal to place it in a piece of pie that's going to Tyrion, and she knows it's going to Tyrion how??. If you have it sitting on a table how on earth is she sure it's going to Tyrion if she's working alone in the room?. 

Try your other scenario. If the pie slice is in the hands of a servant, one she's not working with! she has to be sure that servant is actually going to take the pie to Tyrion, and how can she be sure of that?. She can't. But! She could wait until the servant walks up to Tyrion, but by this time the servant could still be about to place it in front of Sansa, so how could the QOT know at this stage it's for Tyrion??. She can't.

The only way she would know is if the servant places it in front of Tyrion, but as soon as this happens Tyrion is looking at the pie as per the text. His eyes are right on the pie talking us the reader through what he sees. Which would actually make it quite funny if the old lady on the cane was lurking around lifting the crust to place a purple crystal under it, or better yet placing a purple crystal on top of it before the cream goes on. If you think Tyrion wouldn't notice this presence and her actions then I can't help ya. 

Huge holes in your theory John, must do better. 

[Macgregor of the North]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lady O has been shown to be a micromanager, especially when it comes to food. "The cheese will be served when I want it served, and I want it served right now."

So as the head of the house that is providing all the food, and the grandmother of the bride, it would be well within her prerogative to ensure that this very formal event at the feast goes off without a hitch. That means she can easily instruct the wait staff to be at the ready waiting to serve pies to everyone at the head table, with all the pies lined up so she knows exactly which one is for Little Lord Tyrion -- and no one will think this is unusual in any way, shape or form.

The poison is introduced at the moment the pigeons take flight, with her making sure that the only person who has any business at all looking at this particular piece of pie, the server, is looking up. It's already in there by the time the plate is served.

Lady O's last known position is thus:
 

So from this we can conclude that Lady Olenna is on her feet and somewhere behind Tyrion, since he never notices her approach until after he had turned in his seat. And this is exactly where the pies will be coming from momentarily, since it is absurd to think that servers would be reaching all the way across the head table to serve the guests from the front -- indeed, if there is even room on the dais to stand on that side.

If you want to talk about only using things we have been described in the text then you haven't really got any evidence that Olenna was giving instructions to servants to have pie slices lined up a certain way and knew where exactly they were going. There's nothing to hint that she was in control of this type of thing. She's on the dais calling for the rains of castamere, not organising pie plates.

Her last position known is on her feet on the dais, just before Joff lays the chalice down. That's not to say she popped the crystal in, but that's not to say say she never either.

You have conjured up a massive story all of your own here JS and you still haven't convinced me how Olenna manages to get a piece of crystal in Tyrions pie. 

You have her working alone on the sly, but also have her coordinating who exactly on the dais gets which pie slice?, something that would require her to be down there in the thick of it among the plating up, which she is clearly not. So let's look at her planning it beforehand. She has planned for a certain servant to lay Tyrions pie slice on a certain part of a certain table so she knows that's the pie she needs to target?. Then she has to wait until ANOTHER servant picks up that pie slice (which she somehow knows he will take to Tyrion) and just stands and gapes at the roof in the middle of a busy feast with pie in his hand, which she's absolutely sure hes going to do for long enough for her to lift the crust and place a purple crystal in the pie. Which she's sure is going to work even though the Strangler is a poison known for placing in someone's drink. 

Thats your story? 

I'm tiring of reading your convoluted version of the feast JS. There is nothing solid whatsoever in what you are trying to make me believe.

Heres a couple of things to return to. Answering these should satisfy things I hope.

Do you think the poison will effect the colour of what it dissolves into so it shows as a purple colour?.

Do you think the fact that the wine shows as red and purple at different times shows that there was poison in the wine?.

If the poison stains what it is dissolved in, don't you think that the pie should have purple colouring on it, as in the crust and pieces Joff coughs out, the remains on Tyrions plate etc etc. 

When this became a murder scene all these things would have been checked, so if the poison stains things then how come it's never mentioned once that there was any purple staining on any of the remains of the pie, whether it was spit out from Joffrey or remained on Tyrions plate. 

And to quickly return to this. Could you clarify clearly if you think there was poison in the chalice, turning the wine purple?, as I'm quite sure that's what you seemed to be admitting earlier.

Quote

Lol, my explanation is easy. The remnants of whatever poison that was still in Joffrey's mouth had only entered the chalice seconds before, so the poison had not time to diffuse before the bulk of the wine spilled out. The dregs that were left contained either part or all of the crystal, or perhaps poisoned pie filling, that turned it purple.

Explain this above please.

And I'll remind you, the dregs Tyrion spills contained no pie filling.

[Nowy Tends]

11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

First, the text makes it absolutely clear that the strangler is a contact poison, not a systemic one. By that, I mean it passes through the soft tissue of the throat and goes directly to work on the muscles. It does not pass the throat, enter the stomach, pass into the bloodstream, circulate throughout the body, and then back to the throat. If it did, then it wouldn't take affect on either victim for at least a minute.

Then placing a tiny purple crystal inside a piece of pie is the most stupid, ineffective way to use it. The crystal can be swallowed at a stroke without touching the walls of the throat, going directly to the stomach…

[Macgregor of the North]

Right @John Suburbs got another question for ya. 

You say this:

Quote

So with the pies being served so quickly after the cutting, and the person viewing the scene making no mention of any actual pies being cut and plated, the only logical conclusion is that they are already cut and plated and waiting to be served. And the only logical place for that to happen is somewhere behind the head table, right where Lady O happens to be standing the last time we see her."

Ok so you have tables being set up right behind the head table where the King and Queen are sitting, where slices of hot pie are being served from yes? Could you tell me where all these tables and serving men and women are in relation to the absolutely monstrous, sharp enough to cut you, Iron throne that is behind the head table?. 

"The Kingsguard escorted them onto the dais, to the seats of honor beneath the shadow of the Iron Throne, draped for the occasion in long silk streamers of Baratheon gold, Lannister crimson, and Tyrell green."

I can't really see that being the case but I'll await a response on how there are tables set up behind the dais where the massive Iron throne is, and numerous servers are serving up pie which is hot. 

 
"A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream."

Also, why doesn't it make sense to you that other pie/s and pieces of pie will come from the same direction as the ceremonial pie from the opposite side of the hall, the direction of the kitchens I might add, which would explain why they are still hot.

"The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks. Two yards across it was, crusty and golden brown, and they could hear squeaks and thumpings coming from inside it."

How exactly do you envision the scene behind the dais where the huge sharp Iron throne is, bearing in mind that there are tables set out, with pre sliced pie slices on plates, with means to keep them hot, that Olenna is supposed to see, as she needs to keep an eye out for Tyrions slice remember, and also numerous servers picking up said plates and serving them. 

Can you tell me your vision of how all that chaos goes please and how exactly that fits in with Olenna standing on the dais managing to see exactly which piece of pie is destined for Tyrion, then waiting until the servant stops and gapes at the roof, completely and utterly oblivious to the old hag leaning on a cane lifting the pie crust up on the plate to drop a purple crystal inside. 

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

To try something risky like dissolve it in foodstuffs is too risky for clever folks when it goes against the normal known use for such a poison.

Especially when we are talking about Tyrion Lannister. 

Tyrion is at the end of a 77 course feast. He has a cup of wine in front of him and a slice of pie in front of him. Which will he reach for? 

If you are trying to kill Tyrion, poison his wine (common knowledge that the poison will work along with the common knowledge that Tyrion loves wine).

The argument that everyone has to or is expected to eat the pie is not supported by the text (as far as I can recall, please correct me with a quote if I am wrong). What is supported by the text is that the Strangler can be used in wine and Tyrion loves his wine. 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Especially when we are talking about Tyrion Lannister. 

Tyrion is at the end of a 77 course feast. He has a cup of wine in front of him and a slice of pie in front of him. Which will he reach for? 

If you are trying to kill Tyrion, poison his wine (common knowledge that the poison will work along with the common knowledge that Tyrion loves wine).

The argument that everyone has to or is expected to eat the pie is not supported by the text (as far as I can recall, please correct me with a quote if I am wrong). What is supported by the text is that the Strangler can be used in wine and Tyrion loves his wine. 

I agree with you bigtime on this thread so ill quickly correct you on this before John does, and takes pride in doing so. There is still around twenty courses to go I think after the pie, which seems like a midway point kinda thing.

Tyrion had drunk himself through the last twenty courses that were served before the pie though, that's in the text. So from that fact, and also Tyrions behaviour at the wedding, openly mocking the king, being loud and drunk and obnoxious etc, then its clear he couldn't give two shits about some stupid wedding pie custom, even more so as its Joffreys wedding, someone who he has no problem offending openly.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I agree with you bigtime on this thread so ill quickly correct you on this before John does, and takes pride in doing so. There is still around twenty courses to go I think after the pie, which seems like a midway point kinda thing.

Tyrion had drunk himself through the last twenty courses that were served before the pie though, that's in the text. So from that fact, and also Tyrions behaviour at the wedding, openly mocking the king, being loud and drunk and obnoxious etc, then its clear he couldn't give two shits about some stupid wedding pie custom, even more so as its Joffreys wedding, someone who he has no problem offending openly.

Yes, I should have said "towards the end". Although, Tyrion was trying to leave to change clothes, so it was possibly the end for him.