Preston Jacobs and the Purple Wedding

[WalkinDude]

 

I thought this was a fantastic video that asked some really good questions and I'd like the community to weigh in.  

 

I know a lot of you will immediately dismiss the discussion because you hate Preston, but this isn't some far out theory about the Children of The Forrest being telepathic aliens or Dragon Glass being an advanced weapon.

 

I'll try to sum it up for those who don't want to watch though.  Olenna conspiring with Little Finger in the manner LF describes to Sansa is excessive.  If Olenna was going to poison Joffrey, why would she need to hide the poison in Sansa's hair net?  Why involve Dontos and the Kettleblacks? Why not just keep the poison on her person so she wouldn't need to mess with Sansa's hairnet.  Involving everyone else was an unnecessary step  that left open too many variables and loose ends.  Preston argues it wasn't the wine that poisoned Joffrey, but the pie that was laid before Tyrion, making Tyrion the intended target.  Joffrey just happened to take the pie at the worst moment.  And LF had plenty of reason to want to kill Tyrion, his knowledge of the lie told to Catelyn about the Valyrian Steel dagger and how Tyrion played LF with Myrcella, and the most obvious of ending Sansa's marriage.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

Very very interesting. He has given us (or rather, me) something to have in mind until later books.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

Can't see that he is wrong.

[sweetsunray]

Well, I have a problem with the premisse that the hairnet is "too convulated" a scheme.

Sansa was given the hairnet well in advance. Was ordered to wear it on Joffrey's wedding to Margaery. One of the gems is missing. And Olenna did fidget with her hairnet. And the lfetover wine that Tyrion poured out was purple. Then there's the GoHH prophecy about it.

Regardless on the discussion whether it was Gerion or Olenna, whether it was the lemon cream, the pie or the wine that actually poisoned him, you can't dismiss that Sansa was given a hairnet with poisonous gems, so that she would unwittingly smuggle usable poison in the hall of the wedding feast.

Luckily for whatever actually ended up killing Joffrey, no maester has enough surgeon skills to perform a tracheotomy. Because that would actually have saved Joffrey.

[Praetor Xyn]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I have a problem with the premisse that the hairnet is "too convulated" a scheme.

Sansa was given the hairnet well in advance. Was ordered to wear it on Joffrey's wedding to Margaery. One of the gems is missing. And Olenna did fidget with her hairnet. And the lfetover wine that Tyrion poured out was purple. Then there's the GoHH prophecy about it.

Regardless on the discussion whether it was Gerion or Olenna, whether it was the lemon cream, the pie or the wine that actually poisoned him, you can't dismiss that Sansa was given a hairnet with poisonous gems, so that she would unwittingly smuggle usable poison in the hall of the wedding feast.

Luckily for whatever actually ended up killing Joffrey, no maester has enough surgeon skills to perform a tracheotomy. Because that would actually have saved Joffrey.

In the video he references Maester Cressen's death by the same poison, and after taking a single drink of his wine he can't speak. Joffrey speaks after drinking his wine, which is why Preston argues that he wasn't poisoned by the wine, the pie being the only other thing he consumed. He goes on to argue that a servant took a gem from Santa's hair net to poison Tyrion pie.

The argument isn't that the hair net was too convoluted. It's that Olena taking poison out of Santa's hair net then going back to her seat then going back to where Sansa is and putting the poison in something is too convoluted, especially considering the amount of people Littlefinger claims are involved would be unnecessary and leave too many loose ends.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Praetor Xyn said:

The argument isn't that the hair net was too convoluted. It's that Olena taking poison out of Santa's hair net then going back to her seat then going back to where Sansa is and putting the poison in something is too convoluted, especially considering the amount of people Littlefinger claims are involved would be unnecessary and leave too many loose ends.

I have one question: do you think Sansa's hairnet is just a hairnet or is a hairnet that contains poison?

[WalkinDude]

18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I have a problem with the premisse that the hairnet is "too convulated" a scheme.

Sansa was given the hairnet well in advance. Was ordered to wear it on Joffrey's wedding to Margaery. One of the gems is missing. And Olenna did fidget with her hairnet. And the lfetover wine that Tyrion poured out was purple. Then there's the GoHH prophecy about it.

Regardless on the discussion whether it was Gerion or Olenna, whether it was the lemon cream, the pie or the wine that actually poisoned him, you can't dismiss that Sansa was given a hairnet with poisonous gems, so that she would unwittingly smuggle usable poison in the hall of the wedding feast.

Luckily for whatever actually ended up killing Joffrey, no maester has enough surgeon skills to perform a tracheotomy. Because that would actually have saved Joffrey.

I think that is a good rebuttal, but what color was the wine before Joff drank it?  And is it not likely that Joff taking a drink with a mouth full of poisoned pie, wouldn't also backwash into the wine cup?  

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, WalkinDude said:

I think that is a good rebuttal, but what color was the wine before Joff drank it?  And is it not likely that Joff taking a drink with a mouth full of poisoned pie, wouldn't also backwash into the wine cup?

It's initially a deep red. And if he backwashed into the cup enough to turn it purple, there'd be pie crumbles floating around in the wine.

[Praetor Xyn]

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I have one question: do you think Sansa's hairnet is just a hairnet or is a hairnet that contains poison?

It's a hairnet that contains poison, and the video comes to that conclusion in the end.

It wasn't the hairnet itself that was convoluted, it was the number of people involved to give Sansa the hairnet and utilize it. Olenna shouldn't have needed Littlefinger or Dantos to do the plan Littlefinger described.

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

It's a hairnet that contains poison, and the video comes to that conclusion in the end.

It wasn't the hairnet itself that was convoluted, it was the number of people involved to give Sansa the hairnet and utilize it. Olenna shouldn't have needed Littlefinger or Dantos to do the plan Littlefinger described.

In other words, regardless of how convulated the poison plot is (number of people involved), LF still had the hairnet made, gave it to Dontos, who gave it to Sansa, who carried it on the wedding feast on her head, and Olenna did fidget with the hairnet, and one of the gems is missing. It's as if the whole poison plot was carried out anyway by all the mentioned people involved, knowingly or unwittingly. So, the "it's convulated" is either a criticicism on Georgre's writing or a criticism of the plotters making it too hard on themselves, but it's not a valid argument against such a plot having been planned and executed.

[Praetor Xyn]

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

In other words, regardless of how convulated the poison plot is (number of people involved), LF still had the hairnet made, gave it to Dontos, who gave it to Sansa, who carried it on the wedding feast on her head, and Olenna did fidget with the hairnet, and one of the gems is missing. It's as if the whole poison plot was carried out anyway by all the mentioned people involved, knowingly or unwittingly. So, the "it's convulated" is either a criticicism on Georgre's writing or a criticism of the plotters making it too hard on themselves, but it's not a valid argument against such a plot having been planned and executed.

No. I do buy that Joffrey wasn't killed by poison wine based on Cressen not being able to speak, which leads me to believe Tyrion's pie was what killed Joffrey, which leads me to at least be amenable to the suggestion that Tyrion might have been the target.

The convoluted plan wasn't an argument against anything, it was the reason he looked over it and changed his mind about what happened.

The prevailing narrative is completely hearsay from Littlefinger, who's probably the biggest liar in the whole series, so I don't think skepticism of anything he said is unhealthy.

[WalkinDude]

Does Preston come to the conclusion the hairnet had to have poison?  I didn't take that message from the video, but it's possible I over looked it.  A crystal quickly dissolving in a liquid makes sense.  A crystal being put into a pie and not being noticed by the person eating it seems very unlikely.  If you were eating a pie and felt a crystal like object in your mouth, would you just chomp down?  Granted, if the poison acts immediately, Tyrion would have been unable to respond and alert others he was poisoned.

I think the hairnet was more of a plot device, to get Sansa to trust Dontos by telling her it was an heirloom rather than just a cheap piece of junk.  

[sweetsunray]

10 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

No. I do buy that Joffrey wasn't killed by poison wine based on Cressen not being able to speak, which leads me to believe Tywin's pie was what killed Joffrey, which leads me to at least be amenable to the suggestion that Tyrion might have been the target.

The convoluted plan wasn't an argument against anything, it was the reason he looked over it and changed his mind about what happened.

The prevailing narrative is completely hearsay from Littlefinger, who's probably the biggest liar in the whole series, so I don't think skepticism of anything he said is unhealthy.

I didn't say that Joffrey was killed by poisonous wine. I said that we still have everything happen with a poisonous hairnet, as if the hairnet-plot was executed up until taking a gem out of Sansa's hairnet, regardless of what actually ended up killing Joffrey. And the wine looking purple is indication the wine was indeed poisoned.

LF's suggestion is not hearsay. Sansa says Joffrey choked on pie, and LF corrects her he was poisoned and that she helped doing it. He then asks her whether there wasn't a moment where Olenna fidgeted with her hairnet. By then Dontos is already long shot dead, who was at the feast all the time with Sansa, while LF was waiting out in the bay on his boat. And LF tells her this on the ship.

We readers witnessed her being given the hairnet, being ordered to wear it, saw her wearing it, saw Olenna fidget with it, and like Sansa noticed a gem was missing. And through Tyrion's observations we know the wine was deep red first, then purple.

[Colonel Green]

3 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

If Olenna was going to poison Joffrey, why would she need to hide the poison in Sansa's hair net?  

Because, as GRRM discussed in his interview post-"The Lion and the Rose", the Tyrell plan was that Joffrey's death would be passed off as choking, and that if people didn't buy that, then Sansa would take the fall because she had the poison on her.  The hairnet was essential to Olenna's plan because Sansa was the fall guy, if need be.

Quote

Preston argues it wasn't the wine that poisoned Joffrey, but the pie that was laid before Tyrion, making Tyrion the intended target. 

This theory has all kinds of problems, but the simplest way to debunk it is that Littlefinger knew that Joffrey was dead once Sansa stepped onto his ship, and there's no way for him to know that unless Joffrey was the intended target, because nobody could have told him.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

36 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

It wasn't the hairnet itself that was convoluted, it was the number of people involved to give Sansa the hairnet and utilize it. Olenna shouldn't have needed Littlefinger or Dantos to do the plan Littlefinger described.

Olenna did need Littlefinger and Dontos to do LF's plan if the following were factors:

1) Olenna didn't want to take the chance of getting caught holding the murder weapon

2) Littlefinger wanted something incriminating to hold over Sansa

 

[Chris Mormont]

Wow!  A very interesting theory.  I too have wondered why the hairnet. 

I agree, the pie makes sense, but I will offer one item as the devil's advocate, while you are correct, Joff took a long drink of the wine and it did not take effect until after he ate the pie, perhaps the poison took a little longer to work since the chalice was so big and thus the poison diluted? 

[Isobel Harper]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Because, as GRRM discussed in his interview post-"The Lion and the Rose", the Tyrell plan was that Joffrey's death would be passed off as choking, and that if people didn't buy that, then Sansa would take the fall because she had the poison on her.  The hairnet was essential to Olenna's plan because Sansa was the fall guy, if need be.

This theory has all kinds of problems, but the simplest way to debunk it is that Littlefinger knew that Joffrey was dead once Sansa stepped onto his ship, and there's no way for him to know that unless Joffrey was the intended target, because nobody could have told him.

PJ explains this in the beginning of the video.  He (LF) heard the bells ringing after Joffrey's death, and concluded that Joff had died. 

[dariopatke]

There are many problems with this, but biggest ones for sure are LF- Olenna relations:

1) They plotted to kill Joffrey and Varys had no clue about it (I know that Olenna is cautious, but still) and Varys would use this to create a war between Lannisters and Tyrells whuch would lead Tyrells to Aegon.

2) How did negotiations start? Do you imagine Olenna telling LF "Lets kill king" amd vice versa? What if other was completly loyal to crown? They would do it if they are 100% sure other will wish to do it, but how can they be 100% sure? Is that risk even worth it? Its not like they NEED each pther for that plot.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

How much wine was in the cup from which Cressen and Melisandre drank?

How much was in the cup from which Joffrey drank?

Are we certain of exactly how much of the strangler Cressen used?

Unless we have the answers to all three, it's kind of pointless to say Joffrey should be choking sooner from poisoned wine. 

GRRM has commented on the issue of who killed Joffrey, saying that we already have the answer. Since there's been nothing in the books about the pie having been poisoned, it has to have been the wine. If there was more coming out about the issue in the last two books, George would have said "keep reading" like he usually does with unresolved questions. 

Fun thoughts though.

[Isobel Harper]

3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

How much wine was in the cup from which Cressen and Melisandre drank?

How much was in the cup from which Joffrey drank?

Are we certain of exactly how much of the strangler Cressen used?

Unless we have the answers to all three, it's kind of pointless to say Joffrey should be choking sooner from poisoned wine. 

GRRM has commented on the issue of who killed Joffrey, saying that we already have the answer. Since there's been nothing in the books about the pie having been poisoned, it has to have been the wine. If there was more coming out about the issue in the last two books, George would have said "keep reading" like he usually does with unresolved questions. 

Fun thoughts though.

Melisandre drank first, leaving just a sip for Cressen.  Joffrey drank a lot of wine.  Tyrion mentions seeing the muscles in his throat working as he drank.