Preston Jacobs and the Purple Wedding

[John Suburbs]

12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

He considers the chalice and thinks that there is a half inch of deep purple wine it, nothing more, no flakes, no pastry, nothing but a half inch of deep purple wine.

 

We do, and so does Tyrion, he let it "pour" on the floor. Only liquid pours, not a half inch of liquid that has barfings of pie, that wouldnt pour out, that would kind of slide out and fall to the floor, clearly thicker than a half inch of pure liquid that Tyrion pours out. The description would be different no question if there was anything other than a half inch of pure liquid in the chalice. The only idea that there is anything other than a half inch of deep purple poisoned wine in the chalice is made up in your head, like everything else in this theory.

lol, well the person who says that dozens of pie men and hundreds of pies are spread all over the throne room and servants are scurrying this way and that and impaling themselves on the Iron Throne all with absolutely no text to support it from the POV who is watching the whole thing aught to be the first one to concede that just because the text doesn't say there was also pie in the dregs doesn't mean it isn't there.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

53 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The wine appears purple on Joff's chin because it is a thin rivulet of red wine running down his pale white skin.

Really?

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

The text: 

Quote

The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin.

 

[John Suburbs]

11 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

I've already conceded that it probably is Westerosi custom to eat the pie. Yes, I've been to 30 to 40 weddings and have never eaten the cake. I don't eat sweets. I've never felt obligated to eat the cake. This is probably why I questioned it as custom in Westeros. Maybe I should also question myself for being an asshole all these years . 

To me, there are far too many assumptions here. First, does the Strangler work in pie? Maybe, maybe not. Second, will Tyrion eat the pie? Maybe, maybe not. Third, can Olena pull this off? Fourth, if Tyrion eats a bite, will it be the pointy end? Fifth, will he notice purple in his pie? 

Too many unknowns. Tyrion will certainly be drinking wine. We know the poison works in wine. Just use wine.

If you are talking about Joffrey here they probably waited for the pie to come out for two reasons. It provides a distraction to be able to poison the chalice and waiting Joff would be less likely to notice anything amiss if he was drunk. If he was too drunk to drink anymore I guess they would pick another day to off him. I'd say George wanted it to work out on this attempt though.

 

 

I'm wondering what your explanation is for Joff's wine being purple here:

The wine is clearly purple before Joff eats Tyrion's pie. How is this possible in your theory of events?

And how many assumptions do we need support the wine? I'm not even sure I can count that high.

You assume that Cressen's wine is more potent, despite the text that refutes it. You assume there are different classes of poison with different reaction times, which is also refuted in the text. You assume Garlan could reach the chalice without being seen, which is so improbable as to be functionally impossible. You assume Littlefinger knows that Joffrey will place the chalice right where Garlan needs it to be, which again, is impossible. You assume Lady O and Margy are terrified of Joffrey, also despite the text that refutes it. You assume Joffrey is in fact a threat to Margy, despite the text that refutes it. You assume Littlefinger is telling the truth aboard the ship, despite the overwhelming text that paints him as a liar.

The things Lady O needs to know in order to get the poison to Tyrion are clear: she can easily arrange it so she knows exactly which pie is his, and even which bite he will take. She knows he and he alone will be the one to eat it, unless something completely random and unpredictable happens.

This is the crux of the difference between the two theories. The wine requires a whole string of completely random and totally unpredictable events to take place in order to successfully poison the king without poisoning Margy and pinning the whole thing on Tyrion. The pie theory allows her to plan out to the finest detail all the steps needed for a successful conclusion and can only be foiled by a completely random and unpredictable event.

Purple wine on Joff's chin, explained above many times.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

There is no possible way you can read this

Quote

The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin.

and believe that the wine was any color other than purple. The only way you can think it is still red is that you are blindly defending your theory to such extremes that you refuse to see anything in the text that directly contradicts your theory. The wine is purple. It is not red.

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, black_hart said:

Guess most of us don't have big experience as a poisoner, me neither. Just this: There is no reason to assume that different persons of different age and health and stomach content should react in exactly the same way down to the number of seconds til death when poisoned. You can fairly safely conduct a test about the different results of poisoning by heavy drinking on empty stomach vs. heavy drinking after a large meal - results do vary.

Stomach content is irrelevant. The poison does not enter the stomach and attack the throat through the blood stream, or else it would take minutes to work, not seconds. We're not talking about aligning the poisonings to the exact second, but when two poisons are deployed in the exact same manner except the person who is drinking larger quantities of wine that is so poisoned it has turned purple actually takes five or six times longer than the one who has a tiny sip of normal-looking wine, then that is a major clue that there is something wrong with the theory.

[John Suburbs]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Make your mind up. You seem absolutely certain one minute, then change it the next. Of course there are not tables of pie slices behind the royal dais where the monstrous iron throne is. That's just ridiculous. But it was something you were so certain of until I debunked it with facts. See how easy I did that. If you stop being so stubborn and read what im writing ill put the rest of this nonsense to bed also.

The kitchens are in the direction of the opposite side of the hall, across the courtyard outside the throne room entrance. Yes the pie slices are coming direct from the kitchens and theres nothing to say the edible pies weren't wheeled in and sliced behind the ceremonial pie more toward the throne room entrance while Joffrey is coming down to ready himself for the cutting of the ceremonial pie. As soon as the cutting is done the servants would have already been moving toward the dais with hot slices. The throne room is huge, theres enough space to totally side step Joff twirling Marg. Boom, servants place the slices in front of the seated guests on the dais.

Having one servant per seated guest on the dais all holding pie slices, up beside the iron throne, while they get cold, is very hard to imagine actually happening.

Face it and just admit you have no idea how the edible pie slices come into play, and any scenario you conjure up is made up in your own mind.

My example shows exactly how easy that is to do. But at least mines has some sense to it.

I was never wed to the tables. It's one possibility, not the only one. The Iron Throne does not extend across the entire back wall of the throne room. It's up where Joffrey, Margy and Tywin is sitting, not Tyrion and Sansa. Get over yourself.

They are not getting cold. They only need to be there once the pie as arrived and the king and queen are cutting.

Face it, your "facts" are made up out of whole cloth and have nothing whatsoever to back them up.

[John Suburbs]

7 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Under which king would the realm be most stable, and thus the chance highest of Margaery's son inheriting the Iron Throne. Joffrey or Tommen?

Because that's the king that is the scenario that would be most preferable. 

 

He was kind to Sansa too, wasn't he? Until he wasn't. So that he is being kind and gallant with Margaery now does absolutely not mean that he will continue to do so. And as I said

He plays the gracious king today. Joffrey could be gallant when it suited him, Sansa knew, but it seemed to suit him less and less. 

Joffrey's behavior is more and more turning towards the non-gallant side of the spectrum.

 

With Joffrey, yes. But not after he has died, and that was what I was talking about.

And that Cersei assumed regency when Joffrey died does not automatically mean that Margaery would be able to assume the regency for her own son. With Cersei as regent, the regency remained in Lannister hands. I strongly doubt that Tywin would be willing to let the Tyrells take even more power than absolutely necessary.

 

Does he?

“My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice onehanded, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. “See, it’s good.” Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. “Dry, though. Needs washing down.” Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. “I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want. ..” His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

It doesn't sound like it would take much longer to say this than to say 

He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. “He does have power here, my lord,” the woman said. “And fire cleanses.”

after Cressen drops the cup.

Joffrey begins to cough about the same amount of time after first drinking the wine as Cressen did. And after the second swallow of wine, it grows worse.

And what leads you to believe that Littlefinger, Mr. Chaos himself, wants stability in the realm?

He was kind to Sansa until she saw him shame himself on the Trident, and then her brother turned traitor and her entire household was murdered leaving her alone and defenseless in the capital. Margaery's situation is completely different. She has never corrected nor belittled Joffrey, never given him any reason to hate her at all, is a hot 17yo rather than a droopy child, and she has a full army and brother in the kingsguard at her back. Maybe, someday, Joffrey will turn on her, but it certainly won't be that night. The next morning, she wakes up as Queen of the realm, and within a year delivers a child to Joffrey -- hopefully a boy, but there is no controlling these things. Once she produces a son, of course, there are all sorts of ways to get rid of Joffrey and make it look like an accident, and then the Tyrell hold on the IT is secure. With Tommen, they have to wait five years, during which anything can happen in a realm at war and when plagues and disease afflict populations, especially children. Plenty of queens have had to endure dangerous marriages in order to bring power and glory to their house, and Margy knows she is no different.

Margy would act as Queen Regent just as Cersei has, which means she would speak and act for the king. If Tywin is still hand at this point (that is, if Joffrey hasn't dismissed him by now), then he will hold enormous power, but he is still subject to the king's power, which is wielded by Margy. A tough challenge for Margy, to be sure, but a great deal more authority than she would have with Tommon as king, Cersei as regent and Tywin as hand. In that scenario, Margy is practically nothing.

lol, you're starting about 10 to 15 seconds after the poison is supposed to first touch Joffrey's throat. Start when he takes his first chug, drinks all through Margy's comment about Lord Buckler (which itself is about a third longer than Mel's "fire cleanses" bit) and then he picks up the pie and starts on Tyrion.

When you compare the time Joffrey drinks after he has eaten the pie to the time between Cressen's drink and "the words caught in his throat", then yes it is almost exactly the same, but all this should be proof-positive for anyone that the poison was in the pie, not the wine.

 

[John Suburbs]

7 hours ago, sgtpimenta said:

And yet your point seems to be that all of her planning and super anal micromanaging of the servings of pies during the the ceremony were all in vain, since she was not able to murder her designated target (Tyrion, in your theory).

In fact, let me share my own experience during my wedding: the lady who was in charge of organizing the event didn't have the time to seat and enjoy the party - which is what Lady O. seems to be doing:

 In fact, doesn't look like the QoT even takes part in planning the wedding, since Jaime credits the Ceremony to Cersei:

I would like to quote you, if I may, @John Suburbs, if I may:

Let's make a list of all the alternative facts that you seem to be creating to support Preston Jacobs' Theory:

• LF have experimented with it on animals or even humans to see if the poison worked
•  Queen of Thorns kept a watchful eye during all the ceremony
• QoT stick those little fingers of her into Tyrion's pie (with the poison) in the exact spot she knew Tyrion wold put his mouth on 
• Joffrey barfed this same exact piece of pie into his own chalice
• Joffrey describes the pie as "dry" because the poison was drawing all the moisture out of the pie

Sure, all this made-up facts seems to make sense to you, but not one of them have actual proof in the text.

All this inductive reasonings and creative logic leaps are all fun and games, but they are not valid proofs. Let's keep this simple and keep the tinfoil out of this discussion.

Yes, because she cannot predict a completely random and unpredictable act like the king bounding over and eating the pie that was meant for Tyrion. How could she be so blind not to anticipate this?

Everything else is moving according to plan and are just normal courses and events. The pie ceremony is a formal event that she wants to go off without a hitch. Nothing unusual about that at all.

All theories have holes that needed to be filled. Show me the text that says Garlan dropped the crystal into the chalice, or that Joffrey cast an evil eye toward Margy, or that Littlefinger knew exactly where and how the chalice would be placed in the exact spot at the exact time that it had to be poisoned.

My fill-ins are common-sense, perfectly plausible explanations while the winers need to make the impossible possible to maintain their fiction.

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Since when do we know that this crystallized poison, appearing hard enough to be taken for a gemstone, would have the property of absorbing moisture? Sounds like an elucubration to me…

Because it dissolves in wine, which can only happen if it reacts with a liquid, which in this case is predominately water.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

ASOS Sansa II:

This is the sort of passage that slips by most readers the first time around, in terms of its character implications, but on a reread you can see that Sansa has precisely identified the core instability in the alliance.  She ends up dismissing her own insight in the face of Margaery's confidence (Sansa doesn't think much of her own abilities at this point), but in fact, the reason for Margaery's confidence is that she does see the same thing Sansa does, and has a plan to deal with it.  And Littlefinger, many chapters later, essentially reiterates this spiel (and Sansa, it should be noted, never thinks back to this moment, so it's not a case where she herself later concludes she'd known it all along).

Er, yeah.  As evidence, look at the common reaction to said revelation.

Lysa being weak and kind of mad is one thing, but her actions read completely differently when you know she's trying to cover up her own involvement.

Doesn't work at all, thematically.

What?  These crystals dissolve in water, they don't absorb it.

Assuming Garlan is even involved, because appearances are deceiving?  Seriously, that's like the whole point of House Tyrell, thematically.

Either way works.  They chose the latter (and, in truth, having an indication she specifically concealed the crystal on her person -- and, perhaps, that all the other crystals are poison too -- is more incriminating).

Because the Tyrells weren't making Tyrion the fall guy.  Littlefinger was.  They had different ideas of what was going to happen.

Thanks, I had forgotten about that. But how does Littlefinger know that Sansa has had these thoughts?

I don't know anyone who reacted to the Arryn murder with the thought, "Gee, and I thought Littlefinger was a great guy."

They require moisture in order to dissolve. Once the crystal enters the pie, it will start reacting to the moisture in the filling, which means moisture is leaving the filling and coalescing around the crystal. That's the way it works. Kind of like the way salt draws moisture out of meat in the curing process.

If not Garlan, then who? Slight, dainty Leonette? She has even less of a chance of even reaching the lip. Garlan is the knight who waded into the thick of battle on the Blackwater, slaying dozens of foes. He is no secret coward.

Either way works, except that one requires Lady O to simply carry the poison on her person while the other requires a special hairnet with a trick clasp that has to be smuggled to Sansa through a catspaw who represents yet another pair of lips who can bring this whole plot to Tywin if he gets cold feet....

Yes, the Tyrells were going to wait until, by some miracle, someone would notice a tiny purple crystal missing from a hairnet and connect that to a dead king on the ground.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

Show me a single piece of evidence it happened.  And no, "I'll have my cheese when I f***ing want my cheese" is NOWHERE near the same level of detail.  That's in Texas.  Her orchestrating specific pies getting served to specific guests is on Jupiter.

 

Show me a single piece of evidence that Garlan or anyone else dropped poison into the chalice, and how they could have possible known that Joffrey would place it right there in front of him and then walk away.

Lady O wants to poison Tyrion and she can easily cover her actions by insisting that this very formal event at the feast goes exactly the way she wants it. Nothing unusual at all.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Again, you can't say the appearance of Cressen's wine is normal looking. There is no description given. He is about to attempt murder. He doesn't give a description of the wine. You cannot claim it is normal looking.

I was talking about their respective wines, not throat muscles.

Again, I wasn't referring to their throat muscles.

You are making assumptions here which aren't based on the text. There us no possible way for you to say for sure that a small difference in the creation process would not result in a small difference in poisoning to death timeline.

You can't claim that it is more potent than Joffrey's either. So we're both stuck.

Sorry, my bad then. Misunderstood.

The text paints a clear picture as to the way the strangler is created and how valuable it is because it is such an affective stealthy means to kill someone. So no, a normal amount of strangler in someone's wine is not likely to turn it purple because then it wouldn't be very stealth, would it. Anybody who happened to glance into the glass before drinking would stop and say, "why is my wine suddenly so purple." So the very fact that Joffrey's wine is purple on his chin, and your contention that this is proof-positive that it is poisoned, indicates that it is very thoroughly poisoned, far beyond what would be necessary to kill him, and this runs completely contrary to the facts of the two poisonings.

But you also seem to be hung up on this one piece of the whole picture -- that this and this alone is what I base my ideas on. But this is only one tiny step in a long series of disconnects that starts all the way back at Bitterbridge and goes on through the poisoning and beyond. At virtually every step of the way, we are expected to believe that nothing is what it seems, random unpredictable events are planned out, text and facts do not apply, while imaginary facts can be brought in despite any and all evidence to the contrary, and the most unlikely of circumstances arise over and over again to make everything come out all right in the end. At some point, we have to say enough. There is a simpler explanation: one that conforms to the text, to the real motivations of the characters, not the imaginary ones, to real-world facts and historical precedence, and has everybody saying and doing exactly what they should be doing given what they know and what they are trying to accomplish.

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Really?

 

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

There is no possible way you can read this

Quote

The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin.

and believe that the wine was any color other than purple. The only way you can think it is still red is that you are blindly defending your theory to such extremes that you refuse to see anything in the text that directly contradicts your theory. The wine is purple. It is not red.

Yes, really.

Do you imagine that it's a one-inch sheet of wine spilling all over his chest. It's a thin layer, opaque, translucent and purplish when cast against his pale white skin.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

This topic seems to have run its course.

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