Was GRRM influenced by Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series?

[MorgulisMaximus]

7 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Now you are really grasping at straws.

I'm going to stay on topic from now on. Talking about straws is definitely not relevant to the topic.

[MorgulisMaximus]

Jordan's use of wolf dreams definitely predates Martin's. 

Wheel of Time: Perrin, Elyas

A Song of Ice and Fire: Arya, Bran, Jon

 

[baxus]

This thread should just die out before we get to the point of someone saying Jordan used the word "the" or the letter "a" before GRRM so GRRM was clearly influenced by Jordan's work.

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, MorgulisMaximus said:

Brienne of Tarth is a character first introduced in A Clash of Kings (1998). Birgette Silverbow was introduced in The Great Hunt (1990).

There are definitely differences between Brienne and Birgette. But there are also many strong similarities.

Both are described as very distinct female warriors. Brienne is among the top errr....sword-persons in the Seven Kingdoms. Birgette is the hands-down the best errr.... bow-person of all time. Both are described as somewhat "manly" and straightforward. 

Here are the differences: Birgette is about a foot shorter than Brienne. Birgette likes ugly men. Brienne likes "pretty men". 

 

These are all your differences? What about Brienne's shyness and strong belief in chivalry? Birgitte is not shy, and while she possess honor, she doesn't follow a knightly code. Their personalities and roles in the story are extremely different. Just because both names start with a B, and both are warrior-women doesn't mean GRRM was influenced by Jordan. Certainly not with this character.

31 minutes ago, MorgulisMaximus said:

It's a very distinctive phrase. The first time I read it in one of GRRM's books it struck me as very creative. But I wonder if he was subconsciously influenced by Jordan. Or maybe both authors read it somewhere in another authors book. Or perhaps both authors independently came up with the phrase.

I'm going to go with that. They are both influenced by Tolkien. And GRRM, as far as I know, is not shy about citing his influences. Jack Vance is another major influence for GRRM. I have not read any Vance, but I do believe courtly scheming was part of his novels, so I would say that is more likely where GRRM got some inspiration. Though his primary inspiration, as already stated, was the historical Wars of the Roses.

27 minutes ago, MorgulisMaximus said:

Another similarity between GRRM and RJ is the idea of "Game of Thrones". Jordan calls it the "Game of Houses" and also "Des Dae'mar" and "The Great Game". I believe Jordan first mentions this in The Great Hunt published Nov. 1990. Game of Thrones was published in Aug. 1996.

Yes, it is a similarity. But see above. I would say that at best, GRRM was aware of the term Jordan used, and chose not to name his idea "Game of Houses" But "Game of Thrones" is a far more catchier title, so my speculation could be moot anyways.

20 minutes ago, MorgulisMaximus said:

Yet another striking similarity is the width of Westeros (approx. 3000-4000 miles) and the width of the main area in Wheel of Time (approximately 3000 miles). 

Jordan did something very clever which freed him of many of the problems GRRM later encountered. Jordan created multiple forms of "fast travel" which made it possible for characters to move between far-off locations very fast. GRRM's huge world created narrative nightmares which seem to have partially contributed to the Meerenese Knot... among many other problems.

You mean length. Westeros looks nothing like Randland, again, no similarities. And in terms of travel means, what of it? What does one have anything to do with the other? GRRM often skips over logging people's travel, main exceptions being Arya in books 2 and 3, Brienne in book 4, and Tyrion in book 5. But he didn't describe in detail the long journey Tyrion would have taken from the Wall to the Inn at the Crossroads, which Jordan most assuredly would have done. So Jordan had to come up with fast means of travel because of his writing style, GRRM doesn't.

Just now, MorgulisMaximus said:

Jordan's use of wolf dreams definitely predates Martin's. 

Wheel of Time: Perrin, Elyas

A Song of Ice and Fire: Arya, Bran, Jon

 

I had a feeling you were going to bring this up. I'm not sure where GRRM drew his influences on this, but considering that the people who can do this are called wargs, I'm going to point to Tolkien again.

Also if you're really looking to compare GRRM with a contemporary author, I suggest looking at Robin Hobb.

[David Selig]

Hey, guys, look at this, I found the ultimate proof in A Feast for Crows:

Quote

Archmaester Rigney is mentioned as theorising that time is a wheel.

Blatant plagiarism.

[polishgenius]

9 hours ago, Jo498 said:

 So is Pippi Longstocking; despite a subversive female heroine it is clearly not a girlish book like Blyton's insufferable boarding school stories or all those girls and horses ones.

 

I wish people wouldn't talk about Pippi Longstocking. Not because she isn't awesome- she is awesome- but because I work in a German kindergarten and as such every time anyone mentions her name I get the ridiculously catchy theme tune stuck in my head all over again.

[Darth Richard II]

Why is this still even a question? The answer is: no. He wasn't.

[Jo498]

14 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I wish people wouldn't talk about Pippi Longstocking. Not because she isn't awesome- she is awesome- but because I work in a German kindergarten and as such every time anyone mentions her name I get the ridiculously catchy theme tune stuck in my head all over again.

I still love it, more than 35 years after I saw it for the first time.. Do you know this one:

 

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

I still love it, more than 35 years after I saw it for the first time.. Do you know this one:

 

Hahaha what the fuck.

[Darth Richard II]

Thread drift!

[Quijote Light]

31 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Hey, guys, look at this, i found the ultimate proof in A Feast for Crows:

Blatant plagiarism.

Not only that, but he uses Jordan's name right there! It's like he's rubbing his nose in it!

[Jo498]

50 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I'm going to go with that. They are both influenced by Tolkien. And GRRM, as far as I know, is not shy about citing his influences. Jack Vance is another major influence for GRRM. I have not read any Vance, but I do believe courtly scheming was part of his novels, so I would say that is more likely where GRRM got some inspiration. Though his primary inspiration, as already stated, was the historical Wars of the Roses.

As already mentioned, while the war and scheming for the iron throne is far more elaborate, there is a strong similarity to the war for overlordship in Vance's Lyonesse. There is also a strange external enemy (although they are human/humanoid and are beaten back by ordinary means) and an even stranger magical threat (unfortunately underdeveloped as Vance had to wrap up the last volume too quickly) the humans are completely ignorant of.

Spoiler

The threat is a sleeping giant under the sea who has to be magically controlled (and there are two factions of magicians battling for it), otherwise his stirring will cause the flooding of the whole archipel and this will eventually be the case, that's why the islands are not there anymore west of Brittany.

Specific parallels: Suldrun - Sansa, Madouc - Arya, Aillas - Jon/Dany/Pretender, Casmir - Tywin (and Stannis?), Casmir and Persilian's prophecy - Cersei's obsession with the prophecy

[MorgulisMaximus]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

What about Brienne's shyness and strong belief in chivalry? Birgitte is not shy, and while she possess honor, she doesn't follow a knightly code. Their personalities and roles in the story are extremely different. 

Finally, someone who has actually read the books! Good points! 

Just to point out, I've never taken position that Martin was influenced by Jordan. I have noticed many similarities between the works. And therefore asked the question whether Martin was influenced by Jordan.

[Darth Richard II]

He wasn't

[MorgulisMaximus]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

I'm going to go with that. They are both influenced by Tolkien. And GRRM, as far as I know, is not shy about citing his influences. Jack Vance is another major influence for GRRM. I have not read any Vance, but I do believe courtly scheming was part of his novels, so I would say that is more likely where GRRM got some inspiration. Though his primary inspiration, as already stated, was the historical Wars of the Roses.

Just wondering... was The War of the Roses commonly referred to as a "game" in English history? I am not that familiar with English History.

[Richard Writhen]

There's some influence. I mean, A Crown of Swords and A Storm of Swords? Come on. But yeah they were brobably both far more influenced by Tolkien than ever by one another.

[MorgulisMaximus]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

You mean length. Westeros looks nothing like Randland, again, no similarities. And in terms of travel means, what of it? What does one have anything to do with the other? GRRM often skips over logging people's travel, main exceptions being Arya in books 2 and 3, Brienne in book 4, and Tyrion in book 5. But he didn't describe in detail the long journey Tyrion would have taken from the Wall to the Inn at the Crossroads, which Jordan most assuredly would have done. So Jordan had to come up with fast means of travel because of his writing style, GRRM doesn't.

I'm more focused on traveling distances here. GRRM is very rigorous with details. When it takes someone 6 months to travel from point A to point B, he makes sure that this fact fits into the all the plot lines that it affects. When you have 3 to 4 different plot lines that need to connect at a certain time and place, that automatically limits the freedom of the author to do certain things. I think GRRM has said that it's like putting a puzzle together.

[Darth Richard II]

GRRM Never read WoT til after at least the first book of asoiaf was published. Why is this a discussion?

[MorgulisMaximus]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

I'm not sure where GRRM drew his influences on this, but considering that the people who can do this are called wargs, I'm going to point to Tolkien again.

Tolkien has a far different writing style than GRRM and RJ. Tolkien does not go into all the details and character interactions. I'm not recalling any warging in LOTR or The Hobbit. But please do correct me. I haven't read any of Tolkien's other works. I would imagine that Tolkien would not actually describe what a character sees while he/she is warging. 

[Darth Richard II]

Wargs is a far older term than either series.