MorgulisMaximus Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 36 minutes ago, David Selig said: Also your Ray example is a bit silly. The last movie where Luke was the main character came out more than 30 years ago. Of course modern kids don't care much for him and are likely to prefer the main character from the recent movie. Hmmm.. according to your logic, The Hobbit is also a silly comparison to Harry Potter because The Hobbit was published in 1937 and Harry Potter was published in 1997. Faulty logic aside, it's important not to miss the forest for the trees. The important point is that girls are often inspired by female characters. The most popular animated movie among young girls today is Frozen. What do boys think: http://www.chicagonow.com/old-single-mom/2014/03/my-son-hated-frozen/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 OMG A SINGLE BOY CHILD HATED FROZEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 1 minute ago, MorgulisMaximus said: What do boys think: I work in a kindergaten and I know plenty of boys who are just fine with Frozen. Will quite happily join the girls running around shouting "Ich bin Elsa! Zauber! Zauber!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgulisMaximus Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 57 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: OMG A SINGLE BOY CHILD HATED FROZEN Admittedly, I made a mistake in saying "boys" instead of "some boys". But your hyperbole is even more egregious. Perhaps you would like to shut down The Chicago Tribune for what they published as "fake news"? The boy in this newspaper article was very upset that a girl in the movie was hitting a boy. It just illustrates how sensitive some children are to fictional characters of their own gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Sounds like you need to Let it go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 For all I know girls and women read on average considerably more fiction than males. Of course one would have to look into stats for genres as there is obviously some stuff that is fairly gender-specific (Vampires vs. Jack Reacher). But because females read so much more I'd assume that they also read a fair bit of "gender-neutral" stuff or even books that seems to be addressed to males. At least anecdotally I know my sister read both lots of girl's stuff (girls' boarding schools, horses etc.) as well as "neutral" books but also adventure novels with casts dominated by boys or men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I'm not even sure what the argument is here anymore, something about reading The Hobbit to girls turning them into serial killers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Just now, Darth Richard II said: I'm not even sure what the argument is here anymore, something about reading The Hobbit to girls turning them into serial killers? No, probably into spinsters who prefer five meals a day and have a fetish for rings and maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Wait, the Hobbit has no female characters?? That's messed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, unJon said: Wait, the Hobbit has no female characters?? That's messed up. There's a reference to Bilbo's deceased mother. That's pretty much it, though the Mirkwood spiders are presumably female. Whether that is "messed up" is what we're discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 14 hours ago, MorgulisMaximus said: It shows that if given a choice, your hypothetical daughter prefers a female heroine. Yet, as a father you unconsciously do not give her a choice. You believe The Hobbit is the superior book for your young daughter. Period, end of story. Parents have a huge influence on their children and you are unconsciously exerting your influence through your choices. Later in life (teenage years), your daughter might well resent your choices for her. Not necessarily in the form of The Hobbit, but all the other decisions you make for her along the same lines of thinking. Not giving her the ability to choose what inspires her the most. First of all, not ALL girls would go for a female heroine, the same way not ALL boys would go for a male hero. Second of all, reading The Hobbit to your daughter is not limiting her choice, it's reading her a fun story. You can read some other book before and/or after that. As someone said, it's not the only book in the world but it is one of those worth reading. Third, try and flip this story and say that reading a story with all-female or female-dominated cast of characters to your son is wrong in any way, shape or form. Sounds messed up, doesn't it? Last but not least, if I ever have a daughter or daughters, I'm not going to cut out a classic adventure story out of their lives just because some social justice warriors are butthurt over lack of female heroes over the span of those 300 pages. Just like I'm never going to tell them that girls shouldn't do a certain sport or should always behave "like ladies", whatever that meant, or should be quiet when men are talking or any other stupid shit like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Frankly, the big moral lesson to take out of The Hobbit isn't anything gender-related, but rather the line about "if more of us valued food and cheer and song over hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said: Frankly, the big moral lesson to take out of The Hobbit isn't anything gender-related, but rather the line about "if more of us valued food and cheer and song over hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world". Be careful, or we'll get someone ranting about The Hobbit promoting women being stuck in the kitchen to provide the food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Yeah and Bombur is body-shamed several times, isn't he? I am again amazed that gender-awareness in overdrive seems to be about to destroy not only blissful ignorance but what in my recollection was a more relaxed and far less "gendered" attitude towards toys or books for young children in the 70s and 80s (I was born 1972). For me, unlike the Three Investigators or Mallory Towers, The Hobbit is basically a "gender-neutral" book. So is Pippi Longstocking; despite a subversive female heroine it is clearly not a girlish book like Blyton's insufferable boarding school stories or all those girls and horses ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 59 minutes ago, Jo498 said: So is Pippi Longstocking; despite a subversive female heroine it is clearly not a girlish book like Blyton's insufferable boarding school stories or all those girls and horses ones. Roald Dahl's Matilda is another one that strikes me as gender neutral. I mean, you've got a female protagonist, supporting character (the nice teacher), and arch-villain, but it doesn't really matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgulisMaximus Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 I'm going to attempt to get back to the original purpose of this thread: I noticed that GRRM uses some variation of the following phrase several times: "The ground rushed up to... " Not sure when he first used this phrase. But it definitely occurs at the end of the prologue for A Feast for Crows (2005). Robert Jordan uses approximately the same phrase in Winter's Heart (Book #9 of WoT, published Nov. 2000) It's a very distinctive phrase. The first time I read it in one of GRRM's books it struck me as very creative. But I wonder if he was subconsciously influenced by Jordan. Or maybe both authors read it somewhere in another authors book. Or perhaps both authors independently came up with the phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgulisMaximus Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 Another similarity between GRRM and RJ is the idea of "Game of Thrones". Jordan calls it the "Game of Houses" and also "Des Dae'mar" and "The Great Game". I believe Jordan first mentions this in The Great Hunt published Nov. 1990. Game of Thrones was published in Aug. 1996. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgulisMaximus Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 Yet another striking similarity is the width of Westeros (approx. 3000-4000 miles) and the width of the main area in Wheel of Time (approximately 3000 miles). Jordan did something very clever which freed him of many of the problems GRRM later encountered. Jordan created multiple forms of "fast travel" which made it possible for characters to move between far-off locations very fast. GRRM's huge world created narrative nightmares which seem to have partially contributed to the Meerenese Knot... among many other problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Now you are really grasping at straws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgulisMaximus Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 Brienne of Tarth is a character first introduced in A Clash of Kings (1998). Birgette Silverbow was introduced in The Great Hunt (1990). There are definitely differences between Brienne and Birgette. But there are also many strong similarities. Both are described as very distinct female warriors. Brienne is among the top errr....sword-persons in the Seven Kingdoms. Birgette is hands-down the best errr.... bow-person of all time. Both are described as having manly traits and being straightforward. Here are the differences: Birgette is about a foot shorter than Brienne. Birgette likes ugly men. Brienne likes "pretty men". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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