theblackdragonI

Tywin not remarrying makes no sense

133 posts in this topic

Is it just a plot device to show he has a softer side to him and that he used to not be so cold?

I mean he is willing to go to such lengths to ensure his family's legacy will outlast him but he can't do this? I know some people say that he planned on Tommen inheriting but that doesn't make sense really. Joanna was dead 8 or so years when the Rebellion happened. Prior to that he wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar, which  - with Jaime still in KG and him refusing to name Tyrion his heir - leaves a Targ in Casterly Rock. 

I guess he planned to have Jaime leave the KG after killing Aerys but was thwarted by Robert and Jon in that. Leaves him in the same predicament; being succeeded by a Baratheon and the end of House Lannister of Casterly Rock.

He literally could have married any woman in the 7k at any time he wanted. 

I like Tywin's character immensely and I understand he's a widow and all that. But he's very, very hypocritical for forcing Tyrion and Cersei into marriages that they didn't want when he could have secured a strong alliance at any time in the last twenty or so years with House Tyrell, Hightower, Arryn, Tully, Redwyne, etc. 

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12 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

snip

Pet theory of mine is that Tywin knows he is impotent. So a childless marriage would call into question the legitimacy of his children.

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23 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Pet theory of mine is that Tywin knows he is impotent. So a childless marriage would call into question the legitimacy of his children.

That's a great theory, never thought of that. Would go some way to explain his hatred of Tyrion - might see him as living proof of the weakness of his seed as he got older or something like that? Maybe the immediate years after Tyrion/Joanna's death were his last years where making a child was possible. Is it possible to become impotent? Is that what happened to Jon Arryn?

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32 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Pet theory of mine is that Tywin knows he is impotent. So a childless marriage would call into question the legitimacy of his children.

Too sort of co-sign this theory, I had the idea that Tywin was cuckolded with Jamie/Cersei and his true seed was Tyrion.

And because of that he was afraid of bringing another imp into the fold... basically shaming him further.

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25 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

Too sort of co-sign this theory, I had the idea that Tywin was cuckolded with Jamie/Cersei and his true seed was Tyrion.

And because of that he was afraid of bringing another imp into the fold... basically shaming him further.

cuckolded by...Aerys?

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23 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

 Is that what happened to Jon Arryn?

I think it may have, either through nature or some kind of Lysa related tampering.

Great question OP, He certainly would have had his pick of many a lady young and old, I wonder what proposals were sent his way. 

21 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

Too sort of co-sign this theory, I had the idea that Tywin was cuckolded with Jamie/Cersei and his true seed was Tyrion.

And because of that he was afraid of bringing another imp into the fold... basically shaming him further.

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Thats a cool theory man, Joanna seems to be portrayed as a good woman and loving wife so this would be outrageously ironic. 

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Who is going to force him?

Its clear that he loved Joanna and that he is also a hypocrite especially when it comes to sex and relations (Shae in his bed while propagating against prostitutes etc). Hence, it makes perfect sense to force his relatives to do something he himself, due to his power within the house, is absolved from.

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Why are you describing characterization as plot device. 

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7 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Who is going to force him?

Its clear that he loved Joanna and that he is also a hypocrite especially when it comes to sex and relations (Shae in his bed while propagating against prostitutes etc). Hence, it makes perfect sense to force his relatives to do something he himself, due to his power within the house, is absolved from.

Great post. Tywin wouldn't be Tywin if he wasn't such a hypocrite.

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Meh. I'm not saying Tywin isn't a hypocrite but I'm not sure why he is being accused of hypocrisy in this case. Tyrion hasn't married (as far as Tywin is concerned) so a favour is being done for him. Cersei is still a valuable marriage piece, and needs to be taken away from Tommen, so that's why she gets badgered. As for Tywin, aside from not wanting to marry again, any new sons could leapfrog Cersei and Tyrion, and Jaime was still in the KG, so he was doing his existing children a favour, unintentionally maybe, by not remarrying.  

Edited by Chaircat Meow

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A lot of people who have lost a great love in the form of a spouse never remarry. If he truly and deeply loved Joanna, it could be that he couldn't face a loveless marriage and knew he wasn't likely to love again. He wouldn't consider forcing his children into political alliances as hypocritical because it's not like either Cersei or Jaime were in love with anyone as far as he knew, and he could always tell himself they might grow to love their respective spouses.

It's hard to buy into the idea that he was infertile and knew it, because then he'd have to know the twins aren't his. He never gives any such indication.

Similarly there's no reason to think Tywin feared fathering another Tyrion-like child. Tyrion's deformity combined with the info that Joanna was in KL around the time of his conception is likely why Tywin thinks (or wants to believe) he's a bastard. The Targaryen line has had deformed babies in history, but so far as we know House Lannister has not. No particular reason why Tywin would think he's the reason Tyrion isn't supermodel material.

 

36 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Meh. I'm not saying Tywin isn't a hypocrite but I'm not sure why he is being accused of hypocrisy in this case. Tyrion hasn't married (as far as Tywin is concerned) so a favour is being done for him. Cersei is still a valuable marriage piece, and needs to be taken away from Tommen, so that's why she gets badgered. As for Tywin, aside from not wanting to marry again, any new sons could leapfrog Cersei and Tyrion, and Jaime was still in the KG, so he was doing his existing children a favour, unintentionally maybe, by not remarrying.  

Exactly. Tywin would have considered that and may have decided against another marriage for precisely that reason.

 

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It is pretty odd. But then, why the hell did King Maekar I apparently never remarry? He may have loved Dyanna, too, but it is one thing for a prince to remain a widower and quite another for a king to withhold a queen from his subjects. I hope it will turn out that he took Aelinor Penrose to wife after Aerys I died so that she could properly continue her role as Queen Consort - and if she was well beyond child-bearing age at this time there is no need to ever mentioning this as of yet.

However, Tywin's case is very odd due to the fact the had only an unworthy heir. Another marriage and another golden boy from such second wife could have resolved both the Jaime and the Tyrion problem for him.

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I think Tywin always wanted Jaime to succeed him and inherit the Rock. Tywin seemed confident of his ability to browbeat Jaime into leaving the King's Guard and manipulate whatever king bestrode the iron throne at the time into giving him leave to do so, whenever Tywin felt it would be necessary. A new wife for Tywin might produce a son, but the older sons would still have precedence, leaving Tyrion up next (yucko). Plus, a new wife and/or her family would have serious motivation to kill off all of Tywin's older offspring, to ensure their own succession. Remember, this was how it was done.

Tywin was genuinely enraged and dismayed when Jaime flatly refused his offer, in spite of having lost his sword hand and become valueless as a knight, much less a Kings Guard. Returning to the Casterly's Rock to assume the position of its Lord must have seemed a no-brainer to Tywin. Too bad Jaime (in Tywin's opinion) was the "no-brainer."

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40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty odd. But then, why the hell did King Maekar I apparently never remarry? He may have loved Dyanna, too, but it is one thing for a prince to remain a widower and quite another for a king to withhold a queen from his subjects. I hope it will turn out that he took Aelinor Penrose to wife after Aerys I died so that she could properly continue her role as Queen Consort - and if she was well beyond child-bearing age at this time there is no need to ever mentioning this as of yet.

However, Tywin's case is very odd due to the fact the had only an unworthy heir. Another marriage and another golden boy from such second wife could have resolved both the Jaime and the Tyrion problem for him.

Maekar remaining unmarried isn't weird at all regardless of his love for Dyanna or whether he was king or a prince. A king needs to marry not bc he needs a queen but bc he needs an heir. Maekar had 3 (not counting Aemon or the girls) so there was no pressing need to get married. He had an heir & 2 spares when he took the throne. 

Tywin on the other hand technically didn't even have an heir bc Jaime was on the KG and he refused to name Tyrion. I think it was for two reasons: 1) he had this delusion Jaime was still his heir and would somehow get off of the KG and 2) as others have said he was hypocrite. He would force his children into marriages for the sake of the family but he wouldn't do it himself. Whether that was bc of his love of Joanna idk.

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Per Maxxine "he was hypocrite. He would force his children into marriages for the sake of the family but he wouldn't do it himself"

I don't see where any "hypocrisy" comes in. Tywin had produced heirs, and all three were alive. One could succeed him. He "forced" his children into marriages the same way every lord in Westeros did - to make alliances, ensure legitimate offspring who could inherit (often, inherit another lord's castle and lands), and keep them off the streets (i.e., joining sellsword companies or becoming hedge knights or - gods forbid! - joining the church). Letting them find "romantic love" was never part of the equation - and to judge by "the songs" and George RR's object lessons, this was wise: it never, ever ended well.

Also, see my earlier notes: second wives have ways of trying to eliminate the competition from their own children's "right to inherit."

Even Catelyn Tully Stark wanted to "eliminate" poor illegitimate Jon Snow, lest he ever challenge her own children's right to Winterfell. The Wall wasn't far enough, in her estimation.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Per Maxxine "he was hypocrite. He would force his children into marriages for the sake of the family but he wouldn't do it himself"

I don't see where any "hypocrisy" comes in. Tywin had produced heirs, and all three were alive. One could succeed him. He "forced" his children into marriages the same way every lord in Westeros did - to make alliances, ensure legitimate offspring who could inherit (often, inherit another lord's castle and lands), and keep them off the streets (i.e., joining sellsword companies or becoming hedge knights or - gods forbid! - joining the church). Letting them find "romantic love" was never part of the equation - and to judge by "the songs" and George RR's object lessons, this was wise: it never, ever ended well.

Also, see my earlier notes: second wives have ways of trying to eliminate the competition from their own children's "right to inherit."

Even Catelyn Tully Stark wanted to "eliminate" poor illegitimate Jon Snow, lest he ever challenge her own children's right to Winterfell. The Wall wasn't far enough, in her estimation.

The thing is though he didn't have heirs. Jaime was on the KG and he would not accept Tyrion as heir. At the beginning of Game CR could've passed to Tommen through Cersei, but he is technically a Baratheon. As much as he cares about the Lannister name and Lannister legacy does letting CR go to the Baratheon line seem like something that helps the Lannister legacy that he deems so important. It is hypocritical that he wants Cersei to remarry to help the Lannisters but won't do it himself by securing an heir for CR. I guess it's possible that CR could pass to Kevan's line but that doesn't seem to be on Tywin's radar. The only thing on his radar was somehow getting Jaime off the KG to be his heir which was illogical and putting his feelings above what's best for Lannisters which is what he chastises his children for doing. Also, just bc every lord in Westeros does it doesn't make it any less hypocritical. 

The second wife eliminating competition for her children wouldn't be an issue considering the above. There were no other heirs. Her children would be first in line assuming Tywin never changed his mind about Tyrion.

This has the potential to get us very off topic but I can't bring myself to ignore it. Lol. Let's be clear, Catelyn's issue with Jon had very little to do with his threat to her children. It has to do with her jealously over whoever Ned had sex with to get Jon. She hated Jon not bc he was a threat but bc he was a daily reminder that Ned had cheated on her.But in her defense I don't recall her ever actually wanting Jon dead or her saying the Wall wasn't enough. She just didn't want to look at him everyday. Other than her terrible moment of telling Jon it should've been him when Bran fell she never wishes him dead. And as bad as that was it had more to do with her grief than an actual desire to kill him IMO.

Edited by Maxxine

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6 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Is it just a plot device to show he has a softer side to him and that he used to not be so cold?

I mean he is willing to go to such lengths to ensure his family's legacy will outlast him but he can't do this? I know some people say that he planned on Tommen inheriting but that doesn't make sense really. Joanna was dead 8 or so years when the Rebellion happened. Prior to that he wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar, which  - with Jaime still in KG and him refusing to name Tyrion his heir - leaves a Targ in Casterly Rock. 

I guess he planned to have Jaime leave the KG after killing Aerys but was thwarted by Robert and Jon in that. Leaves him in the same predicament; being succeeded by a Baratheon and the end of House Lannister of Casterly Rock.

He literally could have married any woman in the 7k at any time he wanted. 

I like Tywin's character immensely and I understand he's a widow and all that. But he's very, very hypocritical for forcing Tyrion and Cersei into marriages that they didn't want when he could have secured a strong alliance at any time in the last twenty or so years with House Tyrell, Hightower, Arryn, Tully, Redwyne, etc. 

Tywin accepted the marriage made for him, that he found love had to my knowledge little to do with it, and so he expected his family to also accept their marriages, and if they found love in it then great. Secondly you should be aware that also outside of House Lannister people, like Eddard Stark, expected Jamie to be Tywin's heir. Jamie was all for House Lannister and rather happily disregarded his Kingsguard oath when he fought the Tullys for Tywin, so I see no reason as to why Jamie wouldn't be able to disregard his Kingsguard oath when Tywin died regardless of the technicalities of it. Wrong, yes, but perfectly in two-handed Jamie's character.

Also note that Tywin is not restricted to his children when chosing and heir. He can pick Daven or Damion or any Lannister beyond Tyrion to be his heir. A second wife with more children would potentially open a Dance of the Lions for the Lannisters, and Tywin is to shrewd to fall into that trap when he's already got plenty of relatives of both Lannisters and Baratheons.

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It could be as simple as "Tywin is a man and enjoys bachelorhood".

It's heavily implied that the tunnel to Chataya's was created specifically for Tywin.  We know he was banging Shae (gross), and encouraged Sybelle Westerling to help set up Robb and Jeyne.  Tywin and Joanna were married for a very long time, and his thoughts about marriage are likely similar to mine:  I love my wife, love my son, but if she gets struck by a bolt of lightening or chokes to death on a pretzel, there ain't no way in Seven Hells I'm ever getting married again.

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there are a bunch of lannisters anyway, so it is not that big of a deal if Tywin has no more children. Plus who could he marry without pissing someone off ?

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