If Tommon dies before Myrcella would Trystane have the best claim to SE?

[Stormking902]

I was thinking to my self how could Danny get the Stormlands on board and it occured to me if Danny had the Martells on her side and Tommon died before his sister wouldnt Trystane with Mrycella as his wife be the new lawful heir of SE? Also was kinda woundering what rights Edric Storm has by being known as Roberts bastard.

[devilish]

Mrycella will be queen but their children would probably be Baratheon not Martells. Edric Storm has no rights cause he's a bastard

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Myrcella would be the heir to Storm's End following Tommen's death, according to the Iron Throne, as well as the heir to Casterly Rock, as Cersei's heir, and so, her children would probably be granted the seats. However, according to Stannis, Tommen never had any right to Storm's End, and thus Myrcella doesn't either. Daenerys might not be willing to grant Storm's End to either of them, and chose someone loyal to her as the new Lord of Storm's End. And despite his bastardy, Edric might be able to make a claim for Storm's End, as Robert's descendent (like Lord Hornwood's bastard was considered as a possible heir following the deaths of Lord Hornwood and his only trueborn child).

[Stormking902]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Myrcella would be the heir to Storm's End following Tommen's death, according to the Iron Throne, as well as the heir to Casterly Rock, as Cersei's heir, and so, her children would probably be granted the seats. However, according to Stannis, Tommen never had any right to Storm's End, and thus Myrcella doesn't either. Daenerys might not be willing to grant Storm's End to either of them, and chose someone loyal to her as the new Lord of Storm's End. And despite his bastardy, Edric might be able to make a claim for Storm's End, as Robert's descendent (like Lord Hornwood's bastard was considered as a possible heir following the deaths of Lord Hornwood and his only trueborn child).

I was thinking more immediate to the story line like if Tommon kicked the bucket and Mrycella became queen we know as the reader that Mrycella will soon be joining her brothers in the grave but Trystane was still legally married to her before her death by laws of mariage is SE his since there is no heir for SE in the Iron Thrones opinion anyways. Could the Iron Throne deny the Martells the seat? Especially in such crucial times of needing them as an ally. Lady Dustin managed to keep Barrow town even though she was only married to lord Dustin for a short time.

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

But Myrcella isn't married to Trystane (yet), they're only betrothed at the moment. So yes, the IT can most definitely deny the Martells the crown, since they have no claim whatsoever at this point in time.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

I was thinking more immediate to the story line like if Tommon kicked the bucket and Mrycella became queen we know as the reader that Mrycella will soon be joining her brothers in the grave but Trystane was still legally married to her before her death by laws of mariage is SE his since there is no heir for SE in the Iron Thrones opinion anyways. Could the Iron Throne deny the Martells the seat? Especially in such crucial times of needing them as an ally. Lady Dustin managed to keep Barrow town even though she was only married to lord Dustin for a short time.

Myrcella and Trystane are not married. A betrothal does not give Trystane any rights to Storm's End.

A widow (or, in this case, a widower) might make a claim for the seat of the deceased (e.g., Barbrey Dustin and Dornella Hornwood), but it seems likely that it would be up to the liege lord (in this case, the Iron Throne) to decide the matter.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

The precedent set by Robert seems to be that if the king has claim to another seat he can bestow it on someone else, and that person will not necessarily be the next in line. Storms End didn't automatically go to Stannis, Robert gave it to Renly. That's the only precedent I can think of as no Targaryen was ever in that position, as far as I recall.

The IT may decide to grant it to Mycella and Tristane but I doubt it, as they would hardly want Dorne to control the Stomlands (it gives Dorne two out of Seven Kingdoms, and the Stormlords have a history of war with Dorne). Also, Mycella, as has already been said, is heir to Casterly Rock anyway. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Thinking about it, the last clearly legal lord of Storms End was Renly, and I don't see that that necessarily makes it Tommen's. Stannis and, therefore Shireen, arguably have equal or better claims (though of course they're attained). 

Frankly, I'd argue that with Stannis a "traitor" and the IT line of "Baratheons" either on the throne or in line for the Rock, it's pretty much open season on Storms End, i.e. it will be down to who comes out on top, or is on top at any particular time, as to who gets it. A sensible king would appoint a Stormlander with some claim family inks with the Baratheons. 

[Lion of the West]

Trystane can't claim anything, obviously, but Myrcella does have a very good claim. And her children would also have a claim.

[Raisin' Bran]

3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The IT may decide to grant it to Mycella and Tristane but I doubt it, as they would hardly want Dorne to control the Stomlands (it gives Dorne two out of Seven Kingdoms, and the Stormlords have a history of war with Dorne). Also, Mycella, as has already been said, is heir to Casterly Rock anyway. 

Glad someone was able to make this point before I got here. A Dornishman would never be accepted as LP of the Stormlands. At the very least, the marcher lords would take exception to this hypothetical event, perhaps to the point of open revolt.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

After Tommen, Myrcella is next but as she's not married to Trystane he has no claim to anything. If she ascends the IT Trystane would become prince-consort upon their marriage, but since she had the higher rank he likely would not get her claim to SE. In theory SE would pass to a younger son carrying the name Baratheon (eventually, that is), to Shireen, or to a legitimized bastard of Robert's. Given that Edric Storm is the only bastard of his that Myrcella actually knows of, she just might legitimize him to cut Shireen out since her daddy is causing problems. Cersei would have a fit, but I don't think Myrcella is going to be close to her mother in the future anyway.

That would actually be an interesting way to get Edric on the throne, and potentially end up with Gendry legitimized and made Stormlord. Either Dany kills Edric for having the nerve to be on her throne, or Cersei does after Myrcella's death), or Edric keeps/regains the throne in the end.

[Protagoras]

Yeah, Myrcella has the best claim by far. Not only is she closest according to Andal law - her competitors are seen as traitors and she has the backing from one of the great houses who is, so far, unscathed when it comes to their military. Nor is the current ruler, Tommen, likely to say or do anything that would make it harder for his sister to inherit.

But there is no way in hell that Daenerys, or Aegon for that matter, would let Myrcella, Shireen or for that matter Edric Storm hold or keep Storm´s End. She might not kill them for the sins of their fathers and family, but inheriting? Not going to happen. Their line is a line of traitors and usurpers and has forfeited their right to Storm´s End many times over. Stormlands should/will be merged with Crownlands and Dragonstone under the Targaryen ruler, directly controlled by him or her.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 2/9/2017 at 3:22 PM, Protagoras said:

<snip

But there is no way in hell that Daenerys, or Aegon for that matter, would let Myrcella, Shireen or for that matter Edric Storm hold or keep Storm´s End. She might not kill them for the sins of their fathers and family, but inheriting? Not going to happen. Their line is a line of traitors and usurpers and has forfeited their right to Storm´s End many times over. Stormlands should/will be merged with Crownlands and Dragonstone under the Targaryen ruler, directly controlled by him or her.

Thing is...Storm's End has been in Baratheon hands for as longer than the Targaryens ruled Westeros. Orys Baratheon himself was rumored to be Aerion Targaryen's son, and the current batch of Baratheons are descended from Dany's great aunt Rhaelle. They are family, and there's no reason to think she'd punish the children for their fathers' sins. After what her father did, she's got no room to criticize. 

Then of course there's the fact that Orys married a Durrandon and their claim goes back way further. Unless she's going to set someone to studying back several hundred years to find another Durrandon descendant, she's not going to just give Storm's End (a magical castle, mind you) to some strangers with no claim on it.

Even if the Stormlands are merged with the Crownlands, as you suggest, the castle itself must be ruled by someone, and Dany who has longed for family her entire life is unlikely to ignore the few family ties she has in this case. If there are any Baratheons left, she'll at least give them a chance.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Iv thought lots about the Stormlands over the years. At this point it is a free for all by rights it belongs to the Throne and from their point of view Tommen on the Throne, Cersei lord of Caster Rock with an unborn heir and Kevan Lannister as regent or in case of no heir he is the heir, Myrcella keeps Storms End bringing Dorne back into the kingdom that atleast that was Tyrion strategy. 

 

Now for Daenerys she would love to wipe out the Baratheon line but there's one problem she needs the stormlander army. You have to think about the people in the kingdom if the believe the twincest rumour then they no longer hold any allegiance to any leader and therefore would never be totally United.

However if Daenerys legitimized Edric then the Stormlanders would rally to his side and follow him let's not forget they have sworn oaths to Robert and any of his line. This is Daenerys best play and Tyrion would not overlook nor would her lord commander.

 

Aegon it is my belief that Aegon and Jon Connington will use Aegon and Estermonts son to get into Storms End tricking them into believing Edric will be legitimized only to kill him later. I see this happening with the end game being Gendry and Arya taking Storms End only because I believe Bran is a time traveler and storms end is to be protected to protect his sister.

 

For shits and giggles the last heir to the storm lands besides Stannis line is the Kettleblacks, I believe these guys are both Strongs and Baratheons who have disappeared for some reason.

[Protagoras]

On 2017-02-11 at 4:30 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thing is...Storm's End has been in Baratheon hands for as longer than the Targaryens ruled Westeros. Orys Baratheon himself was rumored to be Aerion Targaryen's son, and the current batch of Baratheons are descended from Dany's great aunt Rhaelle. They are family, and there's no reason to think she'd punish the children for their fathers' sins. After what her father did, she's got no room to criticize. 

Then of course there's the fact that Orys married a Durrandon and their claim goes back way further. Unless she's going to set someone to studying back several hundred years to find another Durrandon descendant, she's not going to just give Storm's End (a magical castle, mind you) to some strangers with no claim on it.

Even if the Stormlands are merged with the Crownlands, as you suggest, the castle itself must be ruled by someone, and Dany who has longed for family her entire life is unlikely to ignore the few family ties she has in this case. If there are any Baratheons left, she'll at least give them a chance.

First, while there are family ties (Weak from Roberts grandmother) those were brutaly severed by Roberts Rebellion. So family didn´t count for much then when the Targs were cast out. And "no room to criticize" is class A bullshit - the Baratheons had no problem with punishing the children for their fathers' sins so if someone has "no room to criticize" it is certainly them, if Daenerys do upon said descendants what they did to her and hers. Need I point out that not only did RR kill off Aerys and Rhaegar but her family was exiled, their belongings confiscated and Robert, by refusing to punish Tywin for the murder of Elia´s children took the crime on himself, making it a royal policy to kill off as many Targaryens he could find. So Daenerys herself WAS punished for her father´s sin, she certainly have a moral right to return the favor. But even if she doesn´t want to, since she doesn´t want to punish the children for their fathers crime, I wouldn´t call the Baratheons "family" and those ties that exist are a bit far in the past. 

Second, not giving them back Storm´s End is not a punishment since it assumes that its going to be taken away from, say Shireen or someone innocent. That is however not the case - it was already taken from the attained traitor Robert Baratheon, but the decree to do so was not successful in practice. What you are therefore talking about are NOT punishing the new generation, but rather refusing give them back things they have a claim on but does not control in practice (assuming Shireen or any other Baratheon candidate isn´t holding Storm´s End for them when Daenerys shows up, since Stannis is a lost cause at this point in comparison to say, the Starks who might be holding Winterfell physically at that point). A refusal to assist is in short not a punishment. Shireen is not "punished" by not getting Storm´s End back, since her family already lost said ownership nor hold it in practice. You are suggesting an deal can be worked out, but that is a tough sell for both sides. I mean, will the Baratheons acknowledge the Targaryens as the rulers of Westeros? Admit that Robert was a usurper and child murderer? I can´t see they do (and both of these statements are crucial for Targaryen acceptance because while, again, Daenerys doesn´t want to punish the children for their fathers crime that doesn´t change that their fathers DID commit a crime and that should be acknowledged). And why work out a deal at all? Baratheons didn´t want one when they were strong and powerful yet now when weak, their interests should be taken into consideration? I think not - it sounds hypocritical like Alicent to suddenly take the question of succession to a council when she lost King´s Landing. Gee, that doesn´t sound like an act of desperation at all from a side who refused to cut a deal before that...

Third, Daenerys is not going to find a descendant from the Durrendon (why should she? They lost their rights to it - like the Baratheons in fact) nor will she give it away. She is going to keep it for herself and her family as Robert did with Dragonstone and as Aegon I did with Harrenhal. What I am suggesting is that the Targaryens make sure to put the Baratheons in the same situation they themselves was put. That is, destroyed and/or exiled. What comes around goes around (something house Baratheon need to be learned the hard way). Who rules the castle physically is not a really big problem, but if Daenerys get more than one child, she can give it to her second child. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think that Trystane has a claim to SE at all. He can be the Lady's husband but not a Lord of his own right.

[Protagoras]

On 2017-02-11 at 2:09 PM, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

Iv thought lots about the Stormlands over the years. At this point it is a free for all by rights it belongs to the Throne and from their point of view Tommen on the Throne, Cersei lord of Caster Rock with an unborn heir and Kevan Lannister as regent or in case of no heir he is the heir, Myrcella keeps Storms End bringing Dorne back into the kingdom that atleast that was Tyrion strategy. 

 

Now for Daenerys she would love to wipe out the Baratheon line but there's one problem she needs the stormlander army. You have to think about the people in the kingdom if the believe the twincest rumour then they no longer hold any allegiance to any leader and therefore would never be totally United.

However if Daenerys legitimized Edric then the Stormlanders would rally to his side and follow him let's not forget they have sworn oaths to Robert and any of his line. This is Daenerys best play and Tyrion would not overlook nor would her lord commander.

 

Aegon it is my belief that Aegon and Jon Connington will use Aegon and Estermonts son to get into Storms End tricking them into believing Edric will be legitimized only to kill him later. I see this happening with the end game being Gendry and Arya taking Storms End only because I believe Bran is a time traveler and storms end is to be protected to protect his sister.

 

For shits and giggles the last heir to the storm lands besides Stannis line is the Kettleblacks, I believe these guys are both Strongs and Baratheons who have disappeared for some reason.

If they have sworn oaths to Robert then they wouldn´t accept Daenerys queenship, wouldn´t they? They would see Robert as a true king and that outlook destroys any and all possibilities toward an alliance. 

Why would they deny Robert the King as an usurper yet follow their sworn oaths to him and Edric. In fact, giving this power to Edric is bound to give problems later when said individual starts to see himself as king. 

[PCK]

Wouldn't the Estermonts inherit SE and the throne if all trueborn Baratheons vanished? That's the house most directly related to Robert after Stannis and Shireen. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 hours ago, PCK said:

Wouldn't the Estermonts inherit SE and the throne if all trueborn Baratheons vanished? That's the house most directly related to Robert after Stannis and Shireen. 

No because they are in laws. Edmure will not take Winterfell if Ned's family dies because he doesn't have Starks' blood but Cat's children can take Riverrun because they are biologically related with the Tullys. Same thing with Storms End Cassana's descendant's can take Greenstone but Cassana's Estermont relatives cannot take Storm’s End because they don’t have the Baratheon blood.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 hours ago, Protagoras said:

First, while there are family ties (Weak from Roberts grandmother) those were brutaly severed by Roberts Rebellion. So family didn´t count for much then when the Targs were cast out. And "no room to criticize" is class A bullshit - the Baratheons had no problem with punishing the children for their fathers' sins so if someone has "no room to criticize" it is certainly them, if Daenerys do upon said descendants what they did to her and hers. Need I point out that not only did RR kill off Aerys and Rhaegar but her family was exiled, their belongings confiscated and Robert, by refusing to punish Tywin for the murder of Elia´s children took the crime on himself, making it a royal policy to kill off as many Targaryens he could find. So Daenerys herself WAS punished for her father´s sin, she certainly have a moral right to return the favor. But even if she doesn´t want to, since she doesn´t want to punish the children for their fathers crime, I wouldn´t call the Baratheons "family" and those ties that exist are a bit far in the past. 

Second, not giving them back Storm´s End is not a punishment since it assumes that its going to be taken away from, say Shireen or someone innocent. That is however not the case - it was already taken from the attained traitor Robert Baratheon, but the decree to do so was not successful in practice. What you are therefore talking about are NOT punishing the new generation, but rather refusing give them back things they have a claim on but does not control in practice (assuming Shireen or any other Baratheon candidate isn´t holding Storm´s End for them when Daenerys shows up, since Stannis is a lost cause at this point in comparison to say, the Starks who might be holding Winterfell physically at that point). A refusal to assist is in short not a punishment. Shireen is not "punished" by not getting Storm´s End back, since her family already lost said ownership nor hold it in practice. You are suggesting an deal can be worked out, but that is a tough sell for both sides. I mean, will the Baratheons acknowledge the Targaryens as the rulers of Westeros? Admit that Robert was a usurper and child murderer? I can´t see they do (and both of these statements are crucial for Targaryen acceptance because while, again, Daenerys doesn´t want to punish the children for their fathers crime that doesn´t change that their fathers DID commit a crime and that should be acknowledged). And why work out a deal at all? Baratheons didn´t want one when they were strong and powerful yet now when weak, their interests should be taken into consideration? I think not - it sounds hypocritical like Alicent to suddenly take the question of succession to a council when she lost King´s Landing. Gee, that doesn´t sound like an act of desperation at all from a side who refused to cut a deal before that...

Third, Daenerys is not going to find a descendant from the Durrendon (why should she? They lost their rights to it - like the Baratheons in fact) nor will she give it away. She is going to keep it for herself and her family as Robert did with Dragonstone and as Aegon I did with Harrenhal. What I am suggesting is that the Targaryens make sure to put the Baratheons in the same situation they themselves was put. That is, destroyed and/or exiled. What comes around goes around (something house Baratheon need to be learned the hard way). Who rules the castle physically is not a really big problem, but if Daenerys get more than one child, she can give it to her second child. 

 

House Baratheon itself did not punish children. Tywin ordered the deaths of Rhaegar's children. Robert ordered the assassination attempt on Dany. Stannis and Renly haven't done a thing to harm children. If Dany wants to hold the entire house responsible for Robert's work, especially children, then by that standard she is responsible for the crimes of her own father. 

There is no moral right to do wrong.

Dany was not directly punished. Her life sucked as a result of what happened, but that wasn't personal, it was just how it was, and all of it started and most of it was over before she was even born. The closest she gets to "punishment" over her father's or brother's actions is the hit Robert ordered--an order he rescinded, and from which she was saved by Jorah. Again that's on Robert, not the entire house. If Dany was Robert, then of course she'd be ridiculous about it and blame everybody. She starts out thinking that way, but changes her mind as she learns more of what actually happened. That's the difference between her and Robert: she's able to learn, grow, and adjust her opinions based on new information. I happen to think Dany is a better person than to do what you suggest. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on aspects of the argument that pertain to her character and humanity.

It doesn't matter what you would call "family." It matters what Daenerys would call family, especially in light of her thinking she won't be able to leave any heirs to inherit.

Here's the thing about attainting traitors, in theory it works but in practice, when the king who issues the order is both insane and deposed, the attainting becomes null and void. Dany has to deal with reality, not how it should have gone.

Stannis being a lost cause is a matter of opinion. I don't think he'll survive the series, but I don't think he's done yet.

And yet you say Dany was punished by having to live in exile after her family lost the throne. You can't have it both ways.

If Dany shows up with dragons, yes they will. They don't have to get into Robert's status because Dany can claim right of conquest. I suggest they might want to deal with the magical ice zombies heading down from the North before they get into who was or was not a usurper. Heck, Storm's End can wait too. Maybe after the Others are defeated there won't even be any Baratheon claimants left to worry about.

What deal? No one proposed one. The Targaryens certainly didn't propose any such thing, Rhaella nixed that when she crowned Viserys on Dragonstone. But let's say there was a request for a deal. Robert would have been against it, but that doesn't mean his brothers would have; their hands would have been tied but it would not be the fault of the entire house that Robert was a jerk. I'm not saying that House Baratheon will even want a deal (you seem to have pulled that idea out of thin air), I'm saying Dany will be fair and rational. You seem to think everything should be done on the basis of revenge, that he who has the most power should act according to his own whims. There's are words for that kind of ruler, and none of them are nice. Dany is actively trying not to be like that. 

I would like to borrow your crystal ball, so I can find out what else is going to happen in the series.

What you are suggesting is that Dany turn into Maegor II, or Aerys III.

Now that I agree with. I actually don't think Dany is barren. But she thinks she is, and that's going to be an important consideration for her in all her dealings with Westeros. If she chooses an heir with no blood-claim, she has to act in such a way during her own reign that will encourage the people of Westeros to accept and support her heir after she's gone. Otherwise everything she does will be a complete waste of time when the kingdom dissolves into war again after her death.