Jaime's secret

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

So Jaime kills the king for a good reason, but he never tells anybody. Not even Cersei, or Tyrion, or Tywin?

And these three, who are all in their different ways very concerned about the reputations of Jaime and House Lannister: they never try to wheedle it out of him, or try to spin the story at all?

[Universal Sword Donor]

1) Tywin - Expects that he'd do that because he's a Lannister

2) Tyrion - Expects he did it because he wanted to save his own life

3) Cersei - Expects he did it because he couldn't live without her

I'm sure there are better nuances but that's the 30,000 ft view

[Danelle]

The problem with Jaime is that no one really knows him but everyone, including his own family, think that they do and consider him shallow and gulible.

They project on Jaime the worst and the best characteristics, depending on their p.o.v..

So Ned, who is wary of the Lannisters, fears that Jaime wanted to become King

Quote

"I was still mounted. I rode the length of the hall in silence, between the long rows of dragon skulls. It felt as though they were watching me, somehow. I stopped in front of the throne, looking up at him. His golden sword was across his legs, its edge red with a king's blood. My men were filling the room behind me. Lannister's men drew back. I never said a word. I looked at him seated there on the throne, and I waited. At last Jaime laughed and got up. He took off his helm, and he said to me, 'Have no fear, Stark. I was only keeping it warm for our friend Robert. It's not a very comfortable seat, I'm afraid.'"

The king threw back his head and roared. His laughter startled a flight of crows from the tall brown grass. They took to the air in a wild beating of wings. "You think I should mistrust Lannister because he sat on my throne for a few moments?" He shook with laughter again. "Jaime was all of seventeen, Ned. Scarce more than a boy."

 Ironically Robert is more pragmatic when it came to Jaime's intentions and is correct when he points out that Jaime did not intend to start a Lannister dynasty, but someone had to kill Aerys.

Had Ned been less judgemental, Jaime might have explained to him what had happenned , how and why. 

 

Quote

"It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. 'Bring me your father's head, if you are no traitor.' Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant.

"When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate. I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys, before he could find someone else to carry his message to the pyromancers. Days later, I hunted down the others and slew them as well. Belis offered me gold, and Garigus wept for mercy. Well, a sword's more merciful than fire, but I don't think Garigus much appreciated the kindness I showed him."

 

Quote

You had no right to judge me either, Stark.

In regards to Aerys's assasination, Tywin Lannister admits that both Aerys and Jaime were unpredictable.

Quote

Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do." He closed a fist. 

 We can deduce that Tywin believed that Jaime killed Aerys as an act of revenge for the mistreatment that he and his family had received all those years from the King, as for Cersei and Tyrion they probably thought that Jaime was acting in a brash manner as usual.

Since Jaime's act resulted in the official end of the Targaryen reign, Viserys was king only in name, the Lannisters had no reason to press him for more details.

Besides Jaime's act was very beneficial to Robert, since he was not forced to kill Aerys-his uncle- himself or even order his execution.

On the other hand, Jaime's experiences as Aerys' KG are rather unique, especially during the war, he doesn't seem willing to go back to them or share them with anyone, not even his sister. Of course that changes when Brienne comes along, but this is another story. 

 

[theblackdragonI]

Maybe he didn't want his fears confirmed in their responses, that they'd view him differently:

a) Cersei might think him weak/sentimental.

b ) Tyrion would probably pity him.

c) Don't know how Tywin would react really; maybe anger for being hung up on this? Nothing could change people's opinion of him anyway so he shouldn't let them get to him.

[The hairy bear]

I think that the real reason why Jaime didn't reveal why he killed Aerys was that, deep down, he felt guilty.

He was just a young boy that "wanted to become Ser Arthur Dayne", and dreamt about becoming a great knight. Even hating Aerys as he did, at some level ha hated what he had done, and felt that he deserved punishment for it. And when Eddard came in and found outrageous that Jaime had killed the king he had sworn to protect, Jaime agreed with him.

I won't be able to say it in the appropriate psychology terms, but Jaime's POV and actions show a high degree of self-loathing. The way he dealt with Eddard when Robert was still alive could have costed him his life, and in the conversation with Cat in the cells he's practically asking her to kill him ("I wanted Bran to die"). I think his "death wish" is related to this feeling of guilt, and only begins to go away when he "confesses" his secret to Brienne.

[Castellan]

I agree he felt very guilty. Even though it would have been crazy to keep his oath, there is still a deep superstitious thing about breaking it. 

Also, his pride would prevent him from telling the truth as it would appear as making an excuse, especially if he thought it would not be believed. Then it would be perceived as weak person's lie.

Finally, if you accidentally end up on the winning side of a revolution, and accidentally on the same side as your family, you don't try to point out that you are not a rebel, you only did what you did for a higher moral reason, to save the people of KL.

I think he wouldn't tell Cersei because he'd be afraid she'd blab it to others to defend his honour. Which, coming from her and not him, would make it sound even more like a lie.

 

[Lady bonehead]

I wish had more time to answer this but i agree with hairy bear except I think Jaime feels guilty not primarily about Aerys, but instead about not protecting Elia and the kids.  This is key to understanding his relationship with Tywin

[Amris]

The guilt theory sounds plausible to me.

However in addition to guilt I see pride and arrogance as also contributing to Jaime's not explaining himself.

By nature Jaime seems to have a very high opinion of his own abilities. In scene after scene (before he loses his hand that is) he comes across as arrogant. Only it's not really arrogance because he really is (nearly) as gifted as he thinks he is. He has it all.

My impression is that to Jaime if people are judgemental its their own fault. If they want to indulge in their pet preconceptions it's their loss, not his and he does not feel obliged to help them out of these mental limitations.

(I think GRRM is showing something about real life here btw. People often are judgemental and - contrary to their own perception - that is a weakness, not a strength and Jaime sees that clealy - however a little explanation here and there can of course make it easier for some to get off their moral high horse but explaining is not something Jaime does because pride and arrogance stand in his way. And thus in a certain way Jaime is as mentally limited as the people he scorns for their prejudices. But that of course he does not see. Just like we usually don't either, whatever our own little psychic problem may be).

[The Twinslayer]

7 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

So Jaime kills the king for a good reason, but he never tells anybody. Not even Cersei, or Tyrion, or Tywin?

And these three, who are all in their different ways very concerned about the reputations of Jaime and House Lannister: they never try to wheedle it out of him, or try to spin the story at all?

I am open to the idea that everything Jaime told Brienne about the wildfire plot and why he killed Aerys is a lie (or a retcon). 

First, he is presented as completely immoral, not just in Ned's head but by any objective standard.  He tries to murder a small child.  He is involved in incest with his sister.  Which is treason, since she is married to the king.  The king Jaime is sworn to protect and defend with his own life.  And one of the first things we learn about him (from Robb) is that he is the kingslayer and should not really be counted as a real kingsguard.  Finally, after he killed Aerys, Lannister banners were flying over King's Landing and Jaime was sitting on the throne thinking about ways to thwart the Barratheons and the Starks. 

Then we are told that all of that is true except what Robb says about Jaime being wrong for killing Aerys.  That just does not add up.

Second, his whole discussion of the wildfire plot is fishy.  Jaime claims that he killed everyone (except himself) who knew about it. Very convenient -- no one can corroborate or refute his story.  And, he didn't get rid of the wildfire.  So according to Jaime, he has been living for the past 15 years with his sister and their children in a city that has enough wildfire stashed in just the right places to destroy the entire city and he does absolutely nothing to move it or get rid of it.  That is unbelievable -- and completely inconsistent with his claim to Brienne that his motive was to save the city.  If he really wanted to save the city, he would have done something about the wildfire stashed all over town. 

Third, Aerys didn't have enough wildfire to destroy the city.  Tyrion got all of Aerys' wildfire but still had to make a massive amount of new wildfire to light up the Blackwater. 

Fourth, how did Tyrion get hold of Aerys' wildfire?  Because Jaime told him it was there.  Why would he do that?  If Jaime really believed that there was enough wildfire to destroy the city, then there can be only one reason he did not have it destroyed (or tell Robert or Jon Arryn about it).  He wanted House Lannister to have a private  and secret WMD it could use whenever it wanted to destroy the city.   

1 hour ago, Amris said:

The guilt theory sounds plausible to me.

However in addition to guilt I see pride and arrogance as also contributing to Jaime's not explaining himself.

By nature Jaime seems to have a very high opinion of his own abilities. In scene after scene (before he loses his hand that is) he comes across as arrogant. Only it's not really arrogance because he really is (nearly) as gifted as he thinks he is. He has it all.

My impression is that to Jaime if people are judgemental its their own fault. If they want to indulge in their pet preconceptions it's their loss, not his and he does not feel obliged to help them out of these mental limitations.

(I think GRRM is showing something about real life here btw. People often are judgemental and - contrary to their own perception - that is a weakness, not a strength and Jaime sees that clealy - however a little explanation here and there can of course make it easier for some to get off their moral high horse but explaining is not something Jaime does because pride and arrogance stand in his way. And thus in a certain way Jaime is as mentally limited as the people he scorns for their prejudices. But that of course he does not see. Just like we usually don't either, whatever our own little psychic problem may be).

Are you sure Jaime is as gifted as he wants to believe?  The first time we see him in action, Loras Tyrell unhorses him in a joust.  When he goes to accost Ned, he takes a large number of men with him so that Ned will have no chance.  He wins a battle against the hapless Edmure Tully but then is defeated by Robb Stark and held prisoner for months. 

But the best indication that his opinion of himself is inflated is the scene where he reads his own entry in the White Book.  Hightower and Selmy have written nothing particularly complimentary.  His response is to complain to himself that "Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least."  In other words, the people that knew him best don't think nearly as highly of Jaime as Jaime does.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

27 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

But the best indication that his opinion of himself is inflated is the scene where he reads his own entry in the White Book.  Hightower and Selmy have written nothing particularly complimentary.  His response is to complain to himself that "Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least."  In other words, the people that knew him best don't think nearly as highly of Jaime as Jaime does.

And then Jaime writes an extremely long and self-serving addition, IIRC

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

45 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

I am open to the idea that everything Jaime told Brienne about the wildfire plot and why he killed Aerys is a lie (or a retcon). 

First, he is presented as completely immoral, not just in Ned's head but by any objective standard.  He tries to murder a small child.  He is involved in incest with his sister.  Which is treason, since she is married to the king.  The king Jaime is sworn to protect and defend with his own life.  And one of the first things we learn about him (from Robb) is that he is the kingslayer and should not really be counted as a real kingsguard.  Finally, after he killed Aerys, Lannister banners were flying over King's Landing and Jaime was sitting on the throne thinking about ways to thwart the Barratheons and the Starks. 

Then we are told that all of that is true except what Robb says about Jaime being wrong for killing Aerys.  That just does not add up.

Second, his whole discussion of the wildfire plot is fishy.  Jaime claims that he killed everyone (except himself) who knew about it. Very convenient -- no one can corroborate or refute his story.  And, he didn't get rid of the wildfire.  So according to Jaime, he has been living for the past 15 years with his sister and their children in a city that has enough wildfire stashed in just the right places to destroy the entire city and he does absolutely nothing to move it or get rid of it.  That is unbelievable -- and completely inconsistent with his claim to Brienne that his motive was to save the city.  If he really wanted to save the city, he would have done something about the wildfire stashed all over town. 

Third, Aerys didn't have enough wildfire to destroy the city.  Tyrion got all of Aerys' wildfire but still had to make a massive amount of new wildfire to light up the Blackwater. 

Fourth, how did Tyrion get hold of Aerys' wildfire?  Because Jaime told him it was there.  Why would he do that?  If Jaime really believed that there was enough wildfire to destroy the city, then there can be only one reason he did not have it destroyed (or tell Robert or Jon Arryn about it).  He wanted House Lannister to have a private  and secret WMD it could use whenever it wanted to destroy the city.  

This is an interesting notion, and gets at some of the problems with Jaime keeping his secret.

I thank everybody for providing the character motivations, but doesn't it still seem like a bit of a stretch? I think this might count as a plot weakness; perhaps GRRM changed his mind about Jaime between ACOK and ASOS. Ironically, I think the show understood him a little better in season 1: Jaime's arrogant, holds a grudge against Ned, values what's left of his honour, and therefore fights Ned one-on-one and refuses to kill him when he's injured.

AGOT Jaime is a bit of a textbook villain, which he may, at that point, have been intended to be.

I should point out, though, that Tyrion didn't get all of the wildfire: the pyromancers say that they're still discovering new caches from time to time, so if Jaime killed all the pyromancers who knew about it, or perhaps all the ones in King's Landing (and they never wrote anything down) then that's plausible at least. But it's not plausible that he never mentioned it. Maybe he just didnae give a shit.

[WSmith84]

Tyrion probably never asked because he was probably aware of how Jaime felt. He understood that Jaime didn't want to discuss it, and so left it alone. Tyrion probably thought Jaime did it out of self-preservation or because Aerys was a monster.

Personally, I think Jaime refusing to explain himself has more to do with his pride than with the clash of his idealism and actions. 'By what right does the wolf judge the lion?' says it all, for me really.

[The hairy bear]

4 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

I am open to the idea that everything Jaime told Brienne about the wildfire plot and why he killed Aerys is a lie (or a retcon).

I disagree. And Dany's vision in the House of the Undying support that Jaime was telling the truth (or that at least when writing ACOK the twist was being planned).

4 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

First, he is presented as completely immoral, not just in Ned's head but by any objective standard.  He tries to murder a small child.  He is involved in incest with his sister.  Which is treason, since she is married to the king.  The king Jaime is sworn to protect and defend with his own life.  And one of the first things we learn about him (from Robb) is that he is the kingslayer and should not really be counted as a real kingsguard.  Finally, after he killed Aerys, Lannister banners were flying over King's Landing and Jaime was sitting on the throne thinking about ways to thwart the Barratheons and the Starks.

• He tried to murder a small child that had discovered a terrible secret. If Bran had talked, that would mean the deaths of Jaime, Cersei, and their three children (and probably more). Sad as it is, I think there are many people in the word that would kill an boy to save the lives of their entire family.
• Incest being moral or immoral is largely depending on cultural environment. Was Aegon the Conqueror immoral for marrying his sisters? Some would say yes, some would say no.
• It's not like Jaime choose to serve Robert. In fact, his only other option would have been to severe all ties with family and friends and go to the Wall. Again, he took the choice that most would make.

In short, I don't think Jaime's actions are not "completely immoral", or at least are what many people would do in his situation. But when we see it through Eddard's eyes, we get the picture of a complete monster. The Jaime from later books still does despicable things (menaces to kill babies, takes children from their parents as hostages,...), but the change of POV makes most readers judge him less harshly.

 

4 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Second, his whole discussion of the wildfire plot is fishy.  Jaime claims that he killed everyone (except himself) who knew about it. Very convenient -- no one can corroborate or refute his story.

In ACOK, 300 jars of wildfire are found buried under the Dragonpit. "Another cache of Lord Rossart’s was found, more than three hundred jars. Under the Dragonpit! Some whores have been using the ruins to entertain their patrons, and one of them fell through a patch of rotted floor into a cellar. When he felt the jars, he mistook them for wine."

This is yet another external confirmation of Jaime's story.

4 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Third, Aerys didn't have enough wildfire to destroy the city.  Tyrion got all of Aerys' wildfire but still had to make a massive amount of new wildfire to light up the Blackwater.

Tyrion did not got all of Aery's wildfire. Only the part that was buried under the Dragonpit. There may be many other buried caches of wildfire around the city.

4 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Fourth, how did Tyrion get hold of Aerys' wildfire?  Because Jaime told him it was there. 

Not true. As explained in the ACOK quote above, the wildfire from the Dragonpit was found by chance by a group of whores.

[WSmith84]

Wasn't some also found beneath the Sept of Baelor during Tyrion's tenure as Hand?

[Winter prince]

5 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

And then Jaime writes an extremely long and self-serving addition, IIRC

I felt as though is input was more about Robb than himself.  I think it even said that he was captured by the Young Wolf

[WSmith84]

5 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

I felt as though is input was more about Robb than himself.  I think it even said that he was captured by the Young Wolf

Yep. It was something like 'Captured by the Young Wolf, ransomed by Catelyn Stark for a promise not kept' or some such.

[Cridefea]

13 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

So Jaime kills the king for a good reason, but he never tells anybody. Not even Cersei, or Tyrion, or Tywin?

And these three, who are all in their different ways very concerned about the reputations of Jaime and House Lannister: they never try to wheedle it out of him, or try to spin the story at all?

Does we know for sure nobody knew it? I can't recall it. Anyway I think that even if Tywin or Cersei  have known the real story, they would not want to spread the news. I don't see so many reason to save Jaime's reputation. Maybe Tyrion?

And I agree that jaime sees himself as the kingslayer, and acts like the kingslayer. 

What I also find interesting it's that killing the king is probably his first decision in all his life. Not an easy one.

[Maester Vargo]

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I think that the real reason why Jaime didn't reveal why he killed Aerys was that, deep down, he felt guilty.

He was just a young boy that "wanted to become Ser Arthur Dayne", and dreamt about becoming a great knight. Even hating Aerys as he did, at some level ha hated what he had done, and felt that he deserved punishment for it. And when Eddard came in and found outrageous that Jaime had killed the king he had sworn to protect, Jaime agreed with him.

I won't be able to say it in the appropriate psychology terms, but Jaime's POV and actions show a high degree of self-loathing. The way he dealt with Eddard when Robert was still alive could have costed him his life, and in the conversation with Cat in the cells he's practically asking her to kill him ("I wanted Bran to die"). I think his "death wish" is related to this feeling of guilt, and only begins to go away when he "confesses" his secret to Brienne.

He may have plenty of self-loathing, but I also think he revels in it.  He's the only one who knows what a great hero he really is, and he's so misunderstood by everyone who thinks he's just this dishonorable kingslayer.  I think he enjoys reveling in that sense of victimhood and he's afraid that if he were to reveal why he killed Aerys, maybe people still would think him dishonorable and not a hero, which would devastate his ego.  

Plus, how does he even prove it?  He knew about the existence of the wildfire, but he doesn't necessarily know where it's at.  

Nope, better to keep it inside and feel like the misunderstood hero.

[Maester Vargo]

21 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

Does we know for sure nobody knew it? I can't recall it. Anyway I think that even if Tywin or Cersei  have known the real story, they would not want to spread the news. I don't see so many reason to save Jaime's reputation. Maybe Tyrion?

And I agree that jaime sees himself as the kingslayer, and acts like the kingslayer. 

What I also find interesting it's that killing the king is probably his first decision in all his life. Not an easy one.

I think he also probably enjoys being the 'dreaded' kingslayer.  However strong or poor a fighter he really is, his reputation as being a knight of exceedingly superior prowess goes before him, and part of that stems from his villainous image.  Most anyone who crosses him fears him, at least until he loses his sword hand.  

[Amris]

7 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

I am open to the idea that everything Jaime told Brienne about the wildfire plot and why he killed Aerys is a lie (or a retcon). 

First, he is presented as completely immoral, not just in Ned's head but by any objective standard.  He tries to murder a small child.  He is involved in incest with his sister.  Which is treason, since she is married to the king.  The king Jaime is sworn to protect and defend with his own life.  And one of the first things we learn about him (from Robb) is that he is the kingslayer and should not really be counted as a real kingsguard.  Finally, after he killed Aerys, Lannister banners were flying over King's Landing and Jaime was sitting on the throne thinking about ways to thwart the Barratheons and the Starks. 

Then we are told that all of that is true except what Robb says about Jaime being wrong for killing Aerys.  That just does not add up.

Second, his whole discussion of the wildfire plot is fishy.  Jaime claims that he killed everyone (except himself) who knew about it. Very convenient -- no one can corroborate or refute his story.  And, he didn't get rid of the wildfire.  So according to Jaime, he has been living for the past 15 years with his sister and their children in a city that has enough wildfire stashed in just the right places to destroy the entire city and he does absolutely nothing to move it or get rid of it.  That is unbelievable -- and completely inconsistent with his claim to Brienne that his motive was to save the city.  If he really wanted to save the city, he would have done something about the wildfire stashed all over town. 

Third, Aerys didn't have enough wildfire to destroy the city.  Tyrion got all of Aerys' wildfire but still had to make a massive amount of new wildfire to light up the Blackwater. 

Fourth, how did Tyrion get hold of Aerys' wildfire?  Because Jaime told him it was there.  Why would he do that?  If Jaime really believed that there was enough wildfire to destroy the city, then there can be only one reason he did not have it destroyed (or tell Robert or Jon Arryn about it).  He wanted House Lannister to have a private  and secret WMD it could use whenever it wanted to destroy the city.   

Are you sure Jaime is as gifted as he wants to believe?  The first time we see him in action, Loras Tyrell unhorses him in a joust.  When he goes to accost Ned, he takes a large number of men with him so that Ned will have no chance.  He wins a battle against the hapless Edmure Tully but then is defeated by Robb Stark and held prisoner for months. 

But the best indication that his opinion of himself is inflated is the scene where he reads his own entry in the White Book.  Hightower and Selmy have written nothing particularly complimentary.  His response is to complain to himself that "Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least."  In other words, the people that knew him best don't think nearly as highly of Jaime as Jaime does.

My impression was he is very gifted - though not quite as gifted as he thinks he is. But it makes no matter: The important point is that he thinks he is very gifted and thus does not have these issues other people have about feeling to have to prove their worth to others (or explaining themselves).