Jaime's secret

[Cridefea]

9 minutes ago, Maester Vargo said:

I think he also probably enjoys being the 'dreaded' kingslayer.  However strong or poor a fighter he really is, his reputation as being a knight of exceedingly superior prowess goes before him, and part of that stems from his villainous image.  Most anyone who crosses him fears him, at least until he loses his sword hand.  

yes, he uses his image, at great cost and I think he didn't see himself as a good person, too. He feels he deserves to be the Kingslayer. Psychologically, he is one of the most interesting character.

[black_hart]

8 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

And then Jaime writes an extremely long and self-serving addition, IIRC

Defeated in the Whispering Wood by the Young Wolf Robb Stark during the War of the Five Kings. Held captive at Riverrun and ransomed for a promise unfulfilled. Captured again by the Brave Companions, and maimed at the word of Vargo Hoat their captain, losing his sword hand to the blade of Zollo the Fat. Returned safely to King's Landing by Brienne, the Maid of Tarth.

Self-serving much.

[Castellan]

9 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

I am open to the idea that everything Jaime told Brienne about the wildfire plot and why he killed Aerys is a lie (or a retcon). 

First, he is presented as completely immoral, not just in Ned's head but by any objective standard.  any objective standard?? what's that? I can't be bothered arguing this He tries to murder a small child.  He is involved in incest with his sister.  Which is treason, since she is married to the king.  The king Jaime is sworn to protect and defend with his own life.  And one of the first things we learn about him (from Robb) is that he is the kingslayer and should not really be counted as a real kings guard.  I would say we the readers get the common opinion, as relayed by Robb (Ned's son). Finally, after he killed Aerys, Lannister banners were flying over King's Landing and Jaime was sitting on the throne thinking about ways to thwart the Barratheons and the Starks. I think he was wondering if he could remain loyal to the Targ family even after killing the king but gave it up as a bad job. and why shouldn't he try to thwart the Starks and Baratheons?

Then we are told that all of that is true except what Robb says about Jaime being wrong for killing Aerys.  That just does not add up.

Second, his whole discussion of the wildfire plot is fishy.  Jaime claims that he killed everyone (except himself) who knew about it. Very convenient -- no one can corroborate or refute his story.  And, he didn't get rid of the wildfire.  So according to Jaime, he has been living for the past 15 years with his sister and their children in a city that has enough wildfire stashed in just the right places to destroy the entire city and he does absolutely nothing to move it or get rid of it.  That is unbelievable -- and completely inconsistent with his claim to Brienne that his motive was to save the city.  If he really wanted to save the city, he would have done something about the wildfire stashed all over town. I agree it seems like plot flaw that he doesn't mention ordering the wildfire destroyed when he tells Brienne the rest. But he is talking about people he killed, primarily. We don't know he didn't order them to destroy it. We know that they didn't, and that he didn't follow it up, but not following up would be consistent with his character. 

Third, Aerys didn't have enough wildfire to destroy the city.  Tyrion got all of Aerys' wildfire but still had to make a massive amount of new wildfire to light up the Blackwater. I think you have missed the point here. When Tyrion puts a lot of pressure on the pyromancers (and when they realise there is a going to be a pyromaniac's delight of a bonfire) they suddenly discover a way to "speed up production" - i.e. they bring out the secret stocks of wildfire. I don't think that's my interpretation, its what the reader is supposed to infer. 

Either the entire pyromancer leadership knew about this stash or some of them did, and divulged it. I doubt they left it stashed under all the key buildings of KL either, they had probably moved it to a safer location like under the abandoned dragon pit. 

Fourth, how did Tyrion get hold of Aerys' wildfire?  Because Jaime told him it was there.  There's no ground for this. As above, the pyromancers had it and told him they'd found a way to make it faster. The only other possibility is that in seeking places to store it, they came upon the old caches. Why would he do that?  If Jaime really believed that there was enough wildfire to destroy the city, then there can be only one reason he did not have it destroyed (or tell Robert or Jon Arryn about it).  He wanted House Lannister to have a private  and secret WMD it could use whenever it wanted to destroy the city.   

Are you sure Jaime is as gifted as he wants to believe?  The first time we see him in action, Loras Tyrell unhorses him in a joust.  I think Jaime was seen as at the safer bet in that contest. Its the accumulated scores that count, not the odd loss. And Jaime himself learns to respect Loras skills and decides its not a fluke that he unhorsed him. He see that Loras is superior on horseback, so is better at jousting. Rather than having sour grapes, he wished he had an opportunity for a rematch with this decent opponent.  When he goes to accost Ned, he takes a large number of men with him so that Ned will have no chance. A rare sign of common sense on Jaime's part.   He wins a battle against the hapless Edmure Tully but then is defeated by Robb Stark and held prisoner for months. Jaime is a brilliant and courageous individual fighter but not so good as a commander. Put simple, to fight Brynden and Robb, he needs to be A+ and he is more of a B. But partly this is lack of experience - he didn't get it in Robert's rebellion and the Greyjoy rebellion sounds like small potatoes. He has lived through an era of peace. Also, when you read the advice that people give Tywin in his councils and the advice of the men in Jaime's war council at Riverun, most are not that good and its experience that seems to make most difference. And Eddard and Robb seem like they have a real talent for battle strategy but they lack a grasp of the wider politics that will defeat them. GRRM himself said that Jaime as the best sword fighter in a hundred years, when asked to compare Ned and Jaime. He said Ned's strength was in battle strategy.

But the best indication that his opinion of himself is inflated is the scene where he reads his own entry in the White Book.  Hightower and Selmy have written nothing particularly complimentary.  His response is to complain to himself that "Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least."  In other words, the people that knew him best don't think nearly as highly of Jaime as Jaime does. Jaime is a very isolated person and no one knows him. The closest to accurate is Cersei's "great golden fool". The point of the entry is that Barristan sees Jaime as a disgrace to the Kingsguard and sets down the facts of his killing of Aerys and leading the honour guard at his sister's marriage for history. Jaime is a great tourney champion and if he was another kingsguard Barristan would probably have recorded some victories, but in Jaime's case nothing good can be said after he kills his liege lord. And Jaime himself is not being egotistical, he sees for himself that he has accomplished little.

 

 

 

 

[ravenous reader]

18 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

So Jaime kills the king for a good reason...

I think he does everything for 'love'.

He killed Aerys -- for love of his father, Tywin (whom he didn't want to have to face and kill in the name of the king, Aerys; the last order Aerys gave was to bring him the head of his father)

He tried to kill Bran -- for love of his lover and sister, Cersei (whom he was too pussy-whipped into challenging on any moral basis whatsoever)

He freed Tyrion -- for love of his brother.  No other reason.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, black_hart said:

Defeated in the Whispering Wood by the Young Wolf Robb Stark during the War of the Five Kings. Held captive at Riverrun and ransomed for a promise unfulfilled. Captured again by the Brave Companions, and maimed at the word of Vargo Hoat their captain, losing his sword hand to the blade of Zollo the Fat. Returned safely to King's Landing by Brienne, the Maid of Tarth.

Self-serving much.

Seriously! He admits to being captured over and over, an unfulfilled promise, and then loses his sword hand- which is emasculating in this society, and then he declares, in ink, that a girl saved him.

Defeated in the Whispering Wood by the Young Wolf Robb Stark during the War of the Five Kings. Held captive at Riverrun and ransomed for a promise unfulfilled. Captured again by the Brave Companions, and maimed at the word of Vargo Hoat their captain, losing his sword hand to the blade of Zollo the Fat. Returned safely to King's Landing by Brienne, the Maid of Tarth.

[Curled Finger]

Now that I've got all that Jamie hatred well in the past I'm amazed at how remarkably human a written character can be.   There is a lot to  be learned about the human condition in Jamie.  Born a follower he's lived his life as a follower.  It's Cersei and Tywin who promote him and want him to lead.   That isn't saying that Jamie hasn't grown into a leader, but it wasn't something innate for him.  Tyrion just has big brother hero worship.   None of that has a lot to do with what Jamie thinks of himself.  I like to keep in mind that Jamie was only what? 16? when he slew Aerys, a bonafide mad man who commanded Jamie to bring him Tywin's head.  It had to be clear to Jamie that he'd been had in joining the Kings Guard.  Maybe not, he was just a kid.   He'd heard Rhaella raped repeatedly, saw the madness unwind from Aerys, stood mute witness to the murders of Rickon and Brandon Stark, heard the plot to burn the city--honestly, how much is a basically decent young knight supposed to take before he is compelled to act?   Killing Aerys was not noble, but it was imperative.  I think this happened just as Jamie said it did, he finally recognized the danger and acted.   

As to keeping his actions secret...I think it's more shame than guilt.  He served in the king's personal guard.   He can't explain what happened, who would believe?  As someone above stated, everyone had their own supposition regarding why Jamie did this.  His father is proud, his sister is proud and he's still a hero to his little brother.  He couldn't really care less what Ned Stark thought and knew Ned was too rigid to understand.  Tyrion told Jon to wear his bastardy like a badge (paraphrase).   I think this may have been something instilled by Tywin because Jaime certainly does the same thing in being Kingslayer.   It's really sad Jamie ended up with a wretched sister like Cersei.  He should have had one like Brienne.   

[Angus Thermopyle]

It seems to me that everyone knew that Aerys was crazy, including his own son, and Jaime thought he would be praised for killing him, ending the resistance of Kings Landing and saving it from burning. Then the first thing to happen is Ned Stark accuses him of trying to take the throne for himself. I think he just got tired. You have to remember he had already been used as a pawn by Aerys, so his whole outlook towards life as a knight had already become jaded. Jaime explained it pretty well to Catelyn:

So many vows [...] they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.

 A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

 

 

 

 

 

 

No one in his family cared why he did it, they probably never even asked.Tired and jaded, he became the person everyone said he was, then Brienne showed him he didn't have to live to everyone else's expectations of him and he could be free to become who he always wanted to be. He finally defied both his father and sister to try to do the right thing. I didn't like Jaime's story at first but I think he has become one of the best story lines in the books.

[Lady bonehead]

I don't buy the idea that no one would believe him.  The physical evidence was there, and the surviving pyromancers would have confessed, either voluntarily or under torture if necessary.  

I do believe that the reason Jaime didn't tell Ned originally was due to pride.  He didn't want to sound like he was making excuses for his behavior.  

But what happened after that?  Jaime considered declaring a regency on behalf of Aegon but rejected the idea because Aegon had Aerys's blood (sorry I don't have the exact quote).  In other words he felt Targaryen blood was tainted, not surprising considering his experience with Aerys.  

Then Tywin has Elia and the kids murdered in cold blood, and Robert accepts the fact.  Jaime  may not have had any strong feelings about Robert prior to this, but now he realizes that Robert is corrupt even before he starts abusing Cersei.  He still loves Tywin, but I think their relationship was always complicated and this makes things infinitely worse.  If the world knew about the wildfire plot this would serve to justify Tywin's and Robert's actions, so by keeping silent Jaime is punishing them as well as himself.

No reason to tell Tyrion, he was just a kid at the time.  And Cersei would just blab to Tywin.

[black_hart]

On 11.2.2017 at 4:36 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Seriously! He admits to being captured over and over, an unfulfilled promise, and then loses his sword hand- which is emasculating in this society, and then he declares, in ink, that a girl saved him.

We completely agree, if that wasn't obvious. There is a lot of defiance and soul searching in it. The way he addresses Robb Stark the Young Wolf, not the pretender/rebell or anything. He also reiterates the promise to Catelyn to himself by writing it in the White Book.

 

10 hours ago, Lady bonehead said:

Then Tywin has Elia and the kids murdered in cold blood, and Robert accepts the fact.

Yes. I wonder how different Ned would have reacted if he had found Jaime guarding Elia + children instead of sitting on the throne.

[talvikorppi]

Aargh, I wrote a long, well-reasoned whatever... cyberspace ate it. Basically: I enjoy reading about Jaime, I'm glad every time thete's a thread about him.

Jaime, the way GRRM has written him, is the most interesting and compelling character for me. Yeah, all Stark fans hate him for Bran. He does... or used to do all kinds of tnings. Even Stark fan things.

[Makk]

On 2/11/2017 at 4:52 AM, The Twinslayer said:

I am open to the idea that everything Jaime told Brienne about the wildfire plot and why he killed Aerys is a lie (or a retcon). 

First, he is presented as completely immoral, not just in Ned's head but by any objective standard.  He tries to murder a small child.  He is involved in incest with his sister.  Which is treason, since she is married to the king.  The king Jaime is sworn to protect and defend with his own life.  And one of the first things we learn about him (from Robb) is that he is the kingslayer and should not really be counted as a real kingsguard.  Finally, after he killed Aerys, Lannister banners were flying over King's Landing and Jaime was sitting on the throne thinking about ways to thwart the Barratheons and the Starks. 

Then we are told that all of that is true except what Robb says about Jaime being wrong for killing Aerys.  That just does not add up.

Second, his whole discussion of the wildfire plot is fishy.  Jaime claims that he killed everyone (except himself) who knew about it. Very convenient -- no one can corroborate or refute his story.  And, he didn't get rid of the wildfire.  So according to Jaime, he has been living for the past 15 years with his sister and their children in a city that has enough wildfire stashed in just the right places to destroy the entire city and he does absolutely nothing to move it or get rid of it.  That is unbelievable -- and completely inconsistent with his claim to Brienne that his motive was to save the city.  If he really wanted to save the city, he would have done something about the wildfire stashed all over town. 

Third, Aerys didn't have enough wildfire to destroy the city.  Tyrion got all of Aerys' wildfire but still had to make a massive amount of new wildfire to light up the Blackwater. 

Fourth, how did Tyrion get hold of Aerys' wildfire?  Because Jaime told him it was there.  Why would he do that?  If Jaime really believed that there was enough wildfire to destroy the city, then there can be only one reason he did not have it destroyed (or tell Robert or Jon Arryn about it).  He wanted House Lannister to have a private  and secret WMD it could use whenever it wanted to destroy the city.

1) Killing (or at least trying to) a child to cover your crime is dastardly act. Incest is dirty (at least by our standards). Doing so with the kings wife is breaking the law and his own oath. But it is not out of place for characters, and real people for that matter, to do bad things some of the time and good things at other times. Burning down thousands of people is much, much worse than any of the other crimes you mentioned, even with Bran it simply isn't comparable. You also have to take into account how much 15 years can change people. When he threw Bran out the window he was probably at his lowest point morally having been heavily influenced, in the wrong way, by both Cersei and Robert for a long period of time.

2) I'm not sure you have all the facts correct here. I might be wrong but the only pyromancer I recall him killing, was Rossart, who was on his way to light the wildfire. We don't know whether he searched for all the wildfire, he may have tried to, he may have even thought he had found all or most of it. We don't know. However I do see your point here to an extent, someone who cared about this deeply should at least try to conduct as good a search as possible to find the remainder. Whether or not you find the motivation of Jaime credible is up to you, but I am not sure he even cared about life enough to be worried about it, let the people who assumed power worry about it. 

3) Firstly it is a figure of speech. If it is enough to burn thousands of people and set dozens of buildings alight, does it matter it won't completely gut the city? Also fire spreads through wood much better than it does through water. Starting a fire in half the city has a fair chance of burning pretty much every flammable building down. And where does it say Tyrion found all the wildfire?

4) It was common knowledge that Aerys used wildfire. Tyrion knew that and so went to the pyromancers guild. They were the ones finding it, Tyrion didn't know where all the stashes were. He certainly wasn't told by Jaime at the time he needed it as Jaime was being held captive.

[The Twinslayer]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:23 PM, Castellan said:

 

I was not suggesting that Jaime told Tyrion exactly where to find the wildfire.  I think Jaime told Tyrion it was hidden around the city and that if things ever went badly for House Lannister, they could just blow up King's Landing.  Or put the wildfire to some other use.  Which is exactly what Tyrion later did.  Of course, Tyrion did not have a map to the wildfire.  But he was able to incentivize the pyromancers to find it without letting on how he knew it was there.

It really does stretch credibility to think that Jaime killed Aerys in order to save the innocent people of King's Landing (while the Lannister troops were in the process of sacking the city).  Jaime says he killed Aerys and Rossart.  Then, a few days later, he hunted down the rest.  "When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man at arms, hurrying to a postern gate.  I slew him first.  Then I slew Aerys, before he could find someone else to carry his message to the pyromancers.  Days later, I hunted down the others and slew them as well.  Belis offered me gold, and Garigus wept for mercy." 

Remember, these are the same Belis and Garrigus who were coming and going all day and all night with Rossart.  And "He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed.  Garigus and Belis were the same."

So Garigus and Belis know where the wildfire is stashed, but after killing Rossart and Aerys, Jaime just lets them live?  Why is that?  Because Jaime is too busy climbing up the iron throne to claim it for House Lannister.  He doesn't care that there is a huge stash of wildfire under the city and that there are two crazy pyromancers running around who know where it is because that isn't why he killed Rossart and Aerys.  He killed them so he could make a play for the throne. 

Consider what Jaime told Cersei about that day:  "You should have taken the realm for yourself.  It was there for the taking.  Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King's Landing fell, and made him yield it up.  That was your moment.  All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit.  Such a sad mistake." 

Cersei knows exactly what Jaime was trying to achieve because Jaime told her.   

14 hours ago, Makk said:

1) Killing (or at least trying to) a child to cover your crime is dastardly act. Incest is dirty (at least by our standards). Doing so with the kings wife is breaking the law and his own oath. But it is not out of place for characters, and real people for that matter, to do bad things some of the time and good things at other times. Burning down thousands of people is much, much worse than any of the other crimes you mentioned, even with Bran it simply isn't comparable. You also have to take into account how much 15 years can change people. When he threw Bran out the window he was probably at his lowest point morally having been heavily influenced, in the wrong way, by both Cersei and Robert for a long period of time.

2) I'm not sure you have all the facts correct here. I might be wrong but the only pyromancer I recall him killing, was Rossart, who was on his way to light the wildfire. We don't know whether he searched for all the wildfire, he may have tried to, he may have even thought he had found all or most of it. We don't know. However I do see your point here to an extent, someone who cared about this deeply should at least try to conduct as good a search as possible to find the remainder. Whether or not you find the motivation of Jaime credible is up to you, but I am not sure he even cared about life enough to be worried about it, let the people who assumed power worry about it. 

3) Firstly it is a figure of speech. If it is enough to burn thousands of people and set dozens of buildings alight, does it matter it won't completely gut the city? Also fire spreads through wood much better than it does through water. Starting a fire in half the city has a fair chance of burning pretty much every flammable building down. And where does it say Tyrion found all the wildfire?

4) It was common knowledge that Aerys used wildfire. Tyrion knew that and so went to the pyromancers guild. They were the ones finding it, Tyrion didn't know where all the stashes were. He certainly wasn't told by Jaime at the time he needed it as Jaime was being held captive.

See above for the fact that Jaime killed the other pyromancers (Belis and Garrigus) but waited a few days because killing them was not as urgent as making a play for the throne. 

I think he only killed Belis and Garrigus to make sure no one who wasn't named Lannister would find out about the wildfire.  If he really wanted to save the people, he would have told Robert or Jon Arryn about the wildfire plot and then dragged Belis and Garrigus out to tell the new king where to find it.

[foxberlin]

The vow a Kingsguard has to swear contains keeping the king's secret. That secret that a king is provisioned with enough wildfyre to kill the whole court is such a corrupting one, concerning the relation between king and court, that it has to be kept. Especially if your new king is known to fight wars over cunts (that is what Jaime sees in Robert).

I never felt Jaime was in conflict with his vow in general, but accepted it up to that part of keeping secrets. Only Aerys acted not like a king that moment he would have liked that realm (symbolically) destroyed. Even with Robert Jaime tried to keep up with his vow, even if it meant throwing Bran from a tower. Just the rumor of Roberts childless marriage to Cersei started a whole new war. Keeping the king's secret saves lives, many lives.

The odds that Jaime will ever tell the truth are not good nonetheless: Who would belief his wildfyre-version of events now that the storage is common knowledge? Only Brienne is in that position to trust his story.

[Danelle]

On 11/2/2017 at 7:21 AM, Curled Finger said:

Now that I've got all that Jamie hatred well in the past I'm amazed at how remarkably human a written character can be.   There is a lot to  be learned about the human condition in Jamie.  Born a follower he's lived his life as a follower.  It's Cersei and Tywin who promote him and want him to lead.   That isn't saying that Jamie hasn't grown into a leader, but it wasn't something innate for him.  Tyrion just has big brother hero worship.   None of that has a lot to do with what Jamie thinks of himself.  I like to keep in mind that Jamie was only what? 16? when he slew Aerys, a bonafide mad man who commanded Jamie to bring him Tywin's head.  It had to be clear to Jamie that he'd been had in joining the Kings Guard.  Maybe not, he was just a kid.   He'd heard Rhaella raped repeatedly, saw the madness unwind from Aerys, stood mute witness to the murders of Rickon and Brandon Stark, heard the plot to burn the city--honestly, how much is a basically decent young knight supposed to take before he is compelled to act?   Killing Aerys was not noble, but it was imperative.  I think this happened just as Jamie said it did, he finally recognized the danger and acted.   

As to keeping his actions secret...I think it's more shame than guilt.  He served in the king's personal guard.   He can't explain what happened, who would believe?  As someone above stated, everyone had their own supposition regarding why Jamie did this.  His father is proud, his sister is proud and he's still a hero to his little brother.  He couldn't really care less what Ned Stark thought and knew Ned was too rigid to understand.  Tyrion told Jon to wear his bastardy like a badge (paraphrase).   I think this may have been something instilled by Tywin because Jaime certainly does the same thing in being Kingslayer.   It's really sad Jamie ended up with a wretched sister like Cersei.  He should have had one like Brienne.   

That is a very well written analysis, although I don't think that Jaime's problem is that he had a sister like Cersei but that he had a lover like Cersei.

 

I think that the idea that both Tyrion and Jaime  react in a similar manner to their infamy because they are influenced by their father, is quite interesting. After all when Tywin was a child, House Lannister was a joke. 

[Dofs]

The way I see it, one of the biggest reasons why Jaime didn't tell Cersei and Tyrion why he killed Aerys is because Jaime doesn't like speaking about his concerns and personal problems overall. He seems to be a kind of a person who would happily listen about the problems of his loved ones and help as much as he would but who would at the same time absolutely refuse to speak about his own problems either because he doesn't want to bother anyone about them, because he doesn't want to seem weak or both.

Jaime managed to tell Brienne about Aerys only after his hand was cut off, when he was humiliated and in his absolute low point when all his walls were broken. Only then started to speak why he killed the Mad King and even then later regretted doing it. His absolute refusal to tell anyone that he is bad with his left hand so that he doesn't seem weak also comes into this. Didn't he tell even Cersei that he is fine with it? He only told his best friend about it, deeply regretted it because there was a very slim chance he could tell anyone and then took an illiterate man without a tongue to train him. Jaime absolutely hates showing to anyone that there is something wrong with him.

Also an interesting moment was after Jaime came back from imprisonment Cersei absolutely freaked out when Jaime proposed to her. She flat out said that Jaime has changed. Now, Jaime had always wanted to marry her so why would she be so surprised when he told that? I see the reason is simple - in how many years they were together, Jaime has never told her that, maybe only when they were teens. Seems to me Jaime was more concerned about pleasing Cersei than even sharing with her what he truly wanted of his life.

And hence to the Aerys thing - it was a major turning point for Jaime - he killed the king he was sworn to protect and became a symbol of dishonour for it. For someone whos dream was to become as legendary and great as Arthur Dayne, this hit him pretty hard, so much that he became a complete cynic we saw in GoT because of that. And I am pretty sure that Jaime not only didn't tell Tyrion or Cersei about the deep psychological issues he had because of that, he also tried as hard as possible to hide them. And hence he wouldn't want to tell them the real reason why he killed Aerys either, so that this would not come out. Despite his seeming open-mindness, Jaime is actually a pretty closed-off person.

 

[devilish]

I think it’s mostly down to his upbringing.

Tywin grew up seeing his father as weak. Tytos was too lenient with his banner men and his affections towards his lover made him look like a fool with Tywin. That’s a lesson Tywin made sure he’ll teach his boy.

Jamie early years were terrible. The Lannisters were under attack by the dragon with Aerys  trying new ways of pissing the lion off. Showing any signs of affection or weakness could be costly. Tywin’s only love was harassed by Aerys, Tywin’s heir was appointed KG and Cersei was humiliated and passed on by Aerys. Such personal attacks enforced Tywin’s believes that emotions make people weak whom in turn encouraged him to teach such lessons to his children (Jamie in particular). 

 This had an impact on Jamie. He grew up hating ruling, to be as independent as possible and to never show any weakness.  Lions cannot show weakness because if the enemy knows their weakness then they would exploit it. Such rigidity also contributed to him loving (to the ridiculous) the only few people he was allowed to love ie his family. Jamie killed a king to save his brother. He nearly caused a war to keep Cersei safe and went total bonkers when Tyrion was kidnapped by a Stark.
 

[Lady bonehead]

Love Dof's analysis but will not quote it at length.  I think Jaime hates to show weakness because that's the way he was raised.  I picture Jaime as a child as being brave and strong but also affectionate, kind, trusting and empathic (even the Jaime we meet years later is amazingly empathic).  Basically Tywin was afraid that he was too much like Tytos.  Cersei remembers Tywin lecturing Jaime about the uselessness of love, and Jaime himself at Tywin's bier remembers being told that "a man doesn't cry".   He had other male role models (his uncles, Lord Crakehall, Arthur Dayne) but Tywin's influence was overwhelming.  This also motivated him to be the best fighter he could be from an early age.  

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2017-02-10 at 9:23 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

So Jaime kills the king for a good reason, but he never tells anybody. Not even Cersei, or Tyrion, or Tywin?

And these three, who are all in their different ways very concerned about the reputations of Jaime and House Lannister: they never try to wheedle it out of him, or try to spin the story at all?

The Lannisters sacked the city. No one would believe them.

[Curled Finger]

14 hours ago, Danelle said:

That is a very well written analysis, although I don't think that Jaime's problem is that he had a sister like Cersei but that he had a lover like Cersei.

 

I think that the idea that both Tyrion and Jaime  react in a similar manner to their infamy because they are influenced by their father, is quite interesting. After all when Tywin was a child, House Lannister was a joke. 

Sister, lover--same dif for this family!  I really enjoyed this topic.   I wasn't gonna like Jamie even a little bit.   I hope there comes a time when Bran can recall Jamie because I really want to see what Jamie does with it.   Martin says these characters are grey.   We've seen so many of them in good and bad light.  We've got explanations for all of them.   It is in learning about Tywin that I think we can best understand all 3 Lannister siblings.   Johanna died when the twins were very young, 7 or 8.  Tywin was their only parent.  He was the great influence on each of them.   Because the sibs are different people Tywin's influence displays itself in different ways.  Jamie keeping his reasons for killing Aerys secret are just another manifestation of something Tywin taught him.   Love or hate him, Tywin was a force to be reckoned with.  

And thank you for your kind words, Danelle.   

[Cridefea]

23 hours ago, Danelle said:

I don't think that Jaime's problem is that he had a sister like Cersei but that he had a lover like Cersei.

I think the problem is that he has a sister like Cersei. He lives in a dysfunctional relationship with his manipulator sister since his childhood. She is his family and you don't think family can be toxic, but she is. He was close to her and to noone else, he experienced only this kind of strong relationship. The sexual part of their relationship is the one most disturbing, but paradoxically is the reason why it is clear to everyone that is a dysfunctional relationship. Nobody would have said it was an incest or a sick relationship if they had not had sex, but it would be sick anyway, just in a very subtle way.

And I agree, Tywin was, and still is, a very cumbersome presence in his children's life.