TheYellowAppleFossoway Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I have two rather straight forward questions I've been pondering: Did Tywin really think Tyrion was guilty of poisoning Joffrey? And was Tywin actually going to let Tyrion be executed for his conviction? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mountain That Flies Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 2 hours ago, TheYellowAppleFossoway said: I have two rather straight forward questions I've been pondering: Did Tywin really think Tyrion was guilty of poisoning Joffrey? And was Tywin actually going to let Tyrion be executed for his conviction? Thoughts? Yes to both. From Tywin's POV, Tyrion is a bitter and fundamentally immoral little shit who actively hates everyone in their family. He would totally believe Tyrion is dumb enough and angry enough to assasinate Joffrey. And executing him costs Tywin nothing, while sending him to the Night's Watch could make him look weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCK Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I don't think he really believed Tyrion did it. But, he'd take any excuse to be rid of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Snowflake Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, The Mountain That Flies said: Yes to both. From Tywin's POV, Tyrion is a bitter and fundamentally immoral little shit who actively hates everyone in their family. He would totally believe Tyrion is dumb enough and angry enough to assasinate Joffrey. And executing him costs Tywin nothing, while sending him to the Night's Watch could make him look weak. Tywin never once considered Tyrion an idiot. In fact Tywin sent Tyrion to KL to act as Hand of King to reign in Joffrey and Cersei, and to bring some sense to the court. He certainly didn't do it out of love. Tywin has always hated Tyrion.....but he grudgingly realized that the Imp had some use to him. Right after King Douchebag died, Tyrion was caught leisurely inspecting the "posioned goblet". Is that the action of a man who just killed the king? He had the opportunity to leave while everyone was distracted (see Sansa). Tyrion was a lot of things.....but dumb was not one of them. Methinks that Tywin saw an opportunity to get rid of Tyrion in a way that did not besmirch his honor. And while the "Lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep", kinslaying is frowned upon even worse than the breaking of guest-right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheYellowAppleFossoway Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 What I think is interesting is that if he does suspect Tyrion, then he was fooled by better players. If he didn't suspect Tyrion, he made himself vulnerable by not investigating the true culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hoare Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, TheYellowAppleFossoway said: What I think is interesting is that if he does suspect Tyrion, then he was fooled by better players. If he didn't suspect Tyrion, he made himself vulnerable by not investigating the true culprit. Perharps he would investigate more, but the Imp killed him before he could do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 4 hours ago, TheYellowAppleFossoway said: And was Tywin actually going to let Tyrion be executed for his conviction? Yes, I think Tywin was willing to let Tyrion be executed because Tywin considers Tyrion an embarrassment to the Lannister name. 4 hours ago, TheYellowAppleFossoway said: Did Tywin really think Tyrion was guilty of poisoning Joffrey? No, I do not think Tywin thought Tyrion was guilty of killing Joffrey. Tywin seems like a pragmatic man, he was given the gift of getting rid of an unruly King grandson and an unruly son. He didn't have to bloody his hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 52 minutes ago, The Pimp that was Promised said: Methinks that Tywin saw an opportunity to get rid of Tyrion in a way that did not besmirch his honor. And while the "Lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep", kinslaying is frowned upon even worse than the breaking of guest-right. This would have given him a reason to push Tommen via cersei to free Jamie of his vows so he could return as heir to the rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protagoras Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1. Yes, I think he was. Tyrion is an obvious suspect and while Tywin couldn´t be certain, someone needed to pay for Joffreys death. And Tywin didn´t really care if that person was Tyrion, especially when his rivalry with Joffrey is pretty known. Kevan seems to be convinced of his guilt too. Because, if not Tyrion or possibly Sansa - who would it be? No one else seems to have the motive, money and contacts to pull it off. Don´t forget that Tywin has to choose between family here no matter how much he tries to avoid it. And the choice between Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen and the Tyrells one one side and Tyrion on the other looks to be an easy choice on paper. 2. Yes, I think it was genuine. Tyrion is after all a Lannister. And the watch is not something you return from so he still "counts" as dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 On 10.02.2017 at 4:40 PM, TheYellowAppleFossoway said: I have two rather straight forward questions I've been pondering: Did Tywin really think Tyrion was guilty of poisoning Joffrey? And was Tywin actually going to let Tyrion be executed for his conviction? Thoughts? 2. Yes. His declaration about sending him to the Wall was only made when he was sitting in the loo with a crossbow pointed at him. Also we know he was a hypocrite and not concerned about such concepts as "honor". 1. Hard to say. Tywin as a character is a big enigma in some aspects. As pragmatist as he was, he sometimes seemed to have his own little world too, ignoring reality out of his willfulness or because of his emotions. He seemed rather ignorant about his children real natures; his distaste of Tyrion made him misjudge him, and he seemed to be oblivious about Jaime and Cersei's most obvious secret ever. He sometimes seemed to make irrational or weird decisions - like not remarrying and creating more heirs, or, what's beyond him, using a prostitute after his son. I think I'd go with the interpretation of Tywin choosing to believe Tyrion was guilty, out of hatred, and commiting to this option because it gave him more merit (getting rid of both Joffrey and Tyrion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaedys Targaryen Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 7:51 PM, The Pimp that was Promised said: Tywin never once considered Tyrion an idiot. In fact Tywin sent Tyrion to KL to act as Hand of King to reign in Joffrey and Cersei, and to bring some sense to the court. He certainly didn't do it out of love. Tywin has always hated Tyrion.....but he grudgingly realized that the Imp had some use to him. Pretty much this. Tywin knows that Tyrion is not an idiot and I personally think that if Tywin thought Tyrion was going to poison Joffrey, he would not do it in such an open place and put himself in a position where he would be a suspect (Tywin has said that Tyrion has a low cunning). Throughout his trial, Tyrion looked completely oblivious at everything and had nothing to say to anything, which Tywin, an intelligent man, should be able to see meant that he didn't do it. Tywin was vicious, but he was not an idiot and wanted to get rid of Tyrion one way or the other. Playing along with the "Tyrion is the culprit" narrative and declare him guilty would rid him of Tyrion, either by execution or being sent to the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitman47 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 TYWIN IS DEAD WHO CARES WHAT HE THINKED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 On 10/02/2017 at 3:40 PM, TheYellowAppleFossoway said: I have two rather straight forward questions I've been pondering: Did Tywin really think Tyrion was guilty of poisoning Joffrey? And was Tywin actually going to let Tyrion be executed for his conviction? Thoughts? It is impossible to know for sure. There are things we don't know about Tywin's opinion of Tyrion. The woiaf made it much more likely that Tywin does not actually think Tyrion is his son, believing him to be Aerys Targaryen's instead. Needless to say, this has to affect how we view Tywin's treatment of Tyrion. Woiaf also hints at some events in Tywin's past which might colour his attitude to what happened in SOS. As to your questions: I imagine Tywin did think there was a very good chance Tyrion was guilty. As to whether he was going to allow him to be executed ... hard to say. In some ways Tywin's view of Tyrion particularly predisposed him to accept Tyrion's guilt. Tywin is angry at Tyrion the first time they meet in SoS because Tyrion threatened Tommen with a sexual assault if Alayaya was harmed. Tywin regards this as almost unforgivable. Tyrion is threatening his own family to protect a lowborn women. For Tywin, this is yet another instance of the weakness for prostitutes/mistress Tyrion shared with Tywin's father Tytos. Tywin believed these women made fools out of weak/needy Lannister males and caused them to forget their duty to their family, embarrassing or even harming the Lannisters. Tyrion's threats to Tommen would be an especially egregious example. Now, recall at this point that Tyrion had made threats to Joffrey, before the poisoning. Tyrion had, in Tywin's presence, called Joff a monster and informed him that Sansa was no longer his to torment. Joff, for his part, had been threatening to rape Sansa. Tywin knew that Tyrion was not consummating the marriage, presumably out of consideration for his wife. So, when Joff, who has threatened Sansa, gets poisoned, Tywin might well have assumed that Tyrion had done it again: attacked his own family to win love and affection from his latest female interest. Admittedly the situation is not the same in an important way, the other women were all lowborn, and were not Tyrion/Tytos's wives (a very important consideration for Tywin) but I think Tywin might still have seen a pattern there. So, in other words, Tywin's view of Tyrion, and Tyrion's weakness, may have disposed him to accept that Tyrion was actually guilty. And of course, this would all be on top of the fact that Tyrion did look quite guilty anyway. Kevan seemed to believe the charges too, or at least think them plausible. And Tywin could not easily just ignore Cersei's accusations or exempt Tyrion from a trial after Joff was dead. As to whether he intended to let Tyrion take the black, I don't know. Probably not, I think Tyrion had finally blown it, although Tywin had a poor opinion of Joff. It is not clear why Tywin behaved the way he did towards Tyrion anyway. If he thought he was actually Aerys' son he had no obvious reason to continually try to advance his career, and treat him like a son, in the way he did. Throughout the books Tywin made sure: to get Tyrion blooded in battle, to get him political experience, and to get him a wife. Although Tywin was often sadistic in carrying this out, the fact he was trying implies he felt some kind of duty to Tyrion, even though he half hated him at the same time. So it is not clear he would have been unreservedly pleased to see him executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 On 2/10/2017 at 1:51 PM, The Pimp that was Promised said: Tywin never once considered Tyrion an idiot. In fact Tywin sent Tyrion to KL to act as Hand of King to reign in Joffrey and Cersei, and to bring some sense to the court. He certainly didn't do it out of love. Tywin has always hated Tyrion.....but he grudgingly realized that the Imp had some use to him. Right after King Douchebag died, Tyrion was caught leisurely inspecting the "posioned goblet". Is that the action of a man who just killed the king? He had the opportunity to leave while everyone was distracted (see Sansa). Tyrion was a lot of things.....but dumb was not one of them. Methinks that Tywin saw an opportunity to get rid of Tyrion in a way that did not besmirch his honor. And while the "Lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep", kinslaying is frowned upon even worse than the breaking of guest-right. “Yes.” Lord Tywin looked down at his son. “I had thought you were the one made for motley, Tyrion, but it would appear that I was wrong.” Hrmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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