The stubborness

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

I just thought up another popular one, I do not think Jon will sit the IT and nothing anyone says will sway me until I read "and then Jon climbed the steps and sat on the Iron Throne." 

 

I don't either. Could be wishful thinking though!

(but I really don't think he will)

[Lost Melnibonean]

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't either. Could be wishful thinking though!

(but I really don't think he will)

I don't think Jon will sit the Iron Throne either. I fact, I don't think he will ever travel south of Winterfell. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't think Jon will sit the Iron Throne either. I fact, I don't think he will ever travel south of Winterfell. 

Hmmm Winterfell? I keep going back and forth on all the way down to either the Trident or GW. But I can live with Winterfell being as far south as he'll ever go. 

[The Fattest Leech]

34 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't either. Could be wishful thinking though!

(but I really don't think he will)

 

15 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't think Jon will sit the Iron Throne either. I fact, I don't think he will ever travel south of Winterfell. 

Count me in as Jon will never sit the throne, he won't want it, he won't go south far enough, and the jabby-ass thing probably won't be standing in the end. It is a sign of submission and repression and our protagonists seem to be working towards ending this mindset on both sides of the narrow sea.

There seems to be something with any Stark that goes too far past the neck and tries to play politics or make any 'ruling' decisions... basically, they all die or fail miserably and then die miserable.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

The exact opposite of my last thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145082-changed-your-mind/

This is for the beliefs you doggedly hold on to, people's arguments seem shallow, convoluted, and do not sway you. Perhaps when discussing you plug your ears and go "lalalalala!" very loudly. Maybe you think if George were to do what others have theorized you think it'd be bad writing or not fitting with a character's arc or narrative. Either way this is the place to cling to those beliefs and share them!

My personal one can be summed up in one word: RhAegon. I know of the Blackfyre/Brightfyre/Pisswater theories they don't move me. I'm even open to the idea that they might be true but as of yet I am unconvinced.

The Blackfyre thing has grown on me in weird, tickley ways, and I kinda like it.

I am a firm believer in Jojen paste, and many reasons why.

I am firm in my possibility that Bloodraven is not the kindly grandfather handing out hard candies to the neighborhood kids we may think he is.

I am firm in RLJ, but admit that I would not be upset if Jon was instead half Dayne, but I don't see that being possible.

And I am firm in my beliefs that the Night's Watch has forgotten its vows and has already fallen (or in the process of) and it has nothing to do with Jon's PL decision or the wildlings.

I am firm in my belief that the downward crazy spiral of Cersei will get even more amazing in TWOW and I think she and Euron would make an amazing couple.

There is more, but those plots have already wrapped up with little to no effect on future events (timeline-wise) so I don't worry about them as much anymore.

[Lost Melnibonean]

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Count me in as Jon will never sit the throne, he won't want it, he won't go south far enough, and the jabby-ass thing probably won't be standing in the end. It is a sign of submission and repression and our protagonists seem to be working towards ending this mindset on both sides of the narrow sea.

There seems to be something with any Stark that goes too far past the neck and tries to play politics or make any 'ruling' decisions... basically, they all die or fail miserably and then die miserable.

Cregan made out all right, didn't he? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Blackfyre thing has grown on me in weird, tickley ways, and I kinda like it.

I am a firm believer in Jojen paste, and many reasons why.

I am firm in my possibility that Bloodraven is not the kindly grandfather handing out hard candies to the neighborhood kids we may think he is.

I am firm in RLJ, but admit that I would not be upset if Jon was instead half Dayne, but I don't see that being possible.

And I am firm in my beliefs that the Night's Watch has forgotten its vows and has already fallen (or in the process of) and it has nothing to do with Jon's PL decision or the wildlings.

I am firm in my belief that the downward crazy spiral of Cersei will get even more amazing in TWOW and I think she and Euron would make an amazing couple.

There is more, but those plots have already wrapped up with little to no effect on future events (timeline-wise) so I don't worry about them as much anymore.

My posts? 

[JLE]

7 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I rather stubbornly believe that R+L=J is not true.

The books are filled with mystery and things are never really clear until they happen and you only realise it when you reread it or read it from someone who realised it when they reread it.

Honestly, think about it:

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, Lyanna kidnapped by Rhaegar, Robert believing that Lyanna was repeatedly raped by Rhaegar and some believe that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and she him, Lyanna in a bed of blood, Eddard, who is known to be notoriously honorable, showing up with a little baby boy and claims that he is his bastard, but refuses to name or even mention his mother.

You don't have to be a genius to immediately see the possibility that R+L=J, but it is the "right-in-your-face" thing about it that makes me believe that it is not true. Nothing in this series is ever right in your face, but for some reason, GRRM has written the scenery so that Jon's possible true parentage is, which is just not his style.

(Plus, hasn't GRRM said that there is no "hidden prince" anywhere? Because if so, Jon would qualify as a "hidden prince" by being Rhaegar's bastard or trueborn son, if you believe the people who say that Rhaegar took Lyanna to be his second wife.)

 

I am however open to Lyanna being Jon's mother, but there is no way that Rhaegar is Jon's father.

Far from it. GRRM saying there is "no hidden prince" - simply implies that Jon is not a prince: in other words, even if he is Rhaegar's son, he is still an un-legitimized bastard, with no right to inherit anything. Which means that either Rhaegar did NOT bigamously marry Lyanna, or if he did, there is no way it will be recognised as legal (least of all by Jon himself). Hardly surprising: no Targaryen has practiced bigamy since Maegor the Cruel, and posterity was not kind to his own attempts in the matter since he never succeeded in siring a legitimate child by *any* of his wives.

Whatever Jon gets will be by his own efforts rather than by those of his ancestors, whoever they may be, Targaryen or Stark or both.

[The Fattest Leech]

12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Cregan made out all right, didn't he? 

Agreed. If you check notablog, you will see an announcement that George is writing another tome on Cregan's six magical days as hand to a child. Cregan could not do seven days because that would go against his religion

[John Suburbs]

I always try to listen to other people's POV's, but when the conflict with the text, facts, common sense or just devolve into "well, GRRM didn't really think this through" or "magic, magic makes it just the way I want," I have to laugh.

The Purple Wedding is rife with this.

[The Fresh PtwP]

19 minutes ago, JLE said:

Far from it. GRRM saying there is "no hidden prince" - simply implies that Jon is not a prince: in other words, even if he is Rhaegar's son, he is still an un-legitimized bastard, with no right to inherit anything. Which means that either Rhaegar did NOT bigamously marry Lyanna, or if he did, there is no way it will be recognised as legal (least of all by Jon himself). Hardly surprising: no Targaryen has practiced bigamy since Maegor the Cruel, and posterity was not kind to his own attempts in the matter since he never succeeded in siring a legitimate child by *any* of his wives.

Whatever Jon gets will be by his own efforts rather than by those of his ancestors, whoever they may be, Targaryen or Stark or both.

Except mayhaps that kingship by his brother's efforts.....

[Damsel in Distress]

8 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I rather stubbornly believe that R+L=J is not true.

The books are filled with mystery and things are never really clear until they happen and you only realise it when you reread it or read it from someone who realised it when they reread it.

Honestly, think about it:

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, Lyanna kidnapped by Rhaegar, Robert believing that Lyanna was repeatedly raped by Rhaegar and some believe that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and she him, Lyanna in a bed of blood, Eddard, who is known to be notoriously honorable, showing up with a little baby boy and claims that he is his bastard, but refuses to name or even mention his mother.

You don't have to be a genius to immediately see the possibility that R+L=J, but it is the "right-in-your-face" thing about it that makes me believe that it is not true. Nothing in this series is ever right in your face, but for some reason, GRRM has written the scenery so that Jon's possible true parentage is, which is just not his style.

(Plus, hasn't GRRM said that there is no "hidden prince" anywhere? Because if so, Jon would qualify as a "hidden prince" by being Rhaegar's bastard or trueborn son, if you believe the people who say that Rhaegar took Lyanna to be his second wife.)

 

I am however open to Lyanna being Jon's mother, but there is no way that Rhaegar is Jon's father.

It is pretty much confirmed that Lyanna is Jon's mother.   The identity of his father is the biggest deception in the series in my opinion.  I don't think it's Rhaegar who sired that Jon.  I'm putting my money on Mance Rayder being Jon's dad.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

It is pretty much confirmed that Lyanna is Jon's mother.   The identity of his father is the biggest deception in the series in my opinion.  I don't think it's Rhaegar who sired that Jon.  I'm putting my money on Mance Rayder being Jon's dad.

Please, do elaborate. How does Mance as Jon's father work? 

[The Fattest Leech]

8 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I rather stubbornly believe that R+L=J is not true.

~snipped a bit~

You don't have to be a genius to immediately see the possibility that R+L=J, but it is the "right-in-your-face" thing about it that makes me believe that it is not true. Nothing in this series is ever right in your face, but for some reason, GRRM has written the scenery so that Jon's possible true parentage is, which is just not his style.

(Plus, hasn't GRRM said that there is no "hidden prince" anywhere? Because if so, Jon would qualify as a "hidden prince" by being Rhaegar's bastard or trueborn son, if you believe the people who say that Rhaegar took Lyanna to be his second wife.)

I guess Jon isn't being hidden if it is "right-in-our-face"? George does not do "gotcha!" reveals. Basically, it is like you said, George has planted his seeds very carefully throughout the story

[Damsel in Distress]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Please, do elaborate. How does Mance as Jon's father work? 

We know Mance is capable of leaving the wall undetected.  He's sneaky.  We know he's a talented bard who loved the ladies.  Rules mean little to him.  Lyanna is cut from the same cloth in that regards.  Just like the original Bael the Bard, Mance deflowered a Stark virgin and got her pregnant.  Bael's bastard son fathered a new generation of Starks.  Lyanna is a tomboy and not one to swoon over a man.  It takes skilled seduction to get down her pants.  Mance is skilled with the ladies.  Rhaegar played his harp and it brought Lyanna to tears?  Why?  Because the song reminded her of a former lover, Mance.  Jon being half-wildling brings the story in full circle.  The Stark bloodline will again be infused with wildling blood.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Arya will survive the series. 

Coldhands is not anybody we know, but also not just a meat-suit for Bloodraven.

Bloodraven is a good guy and unsung hero of Westeros.

 

You can have my belief in these when GRRM pries them from my traumatized, reading hands.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Damsel in Distress said:

We know Mance is capable of leaving the wall undetected.  He's sneaky.  We know he's a talented bard who loved the ladies.  Rules mean little to him.  Lyanna is cut from the same cloth in that regards.  Just like the original Bael the Bard, Mance deflowered a Stark virgin and got her pregnant.  Bael's bastard son fathered a new generation of Starks.  Lyanna is a tomboy and not one to swoon over a man.  It takes skilled seduction to get down her pants.  Mance is skilled with the ladies.  Rhaegar played his harp and it brought Lyanna to tears?  Why?  Because the song reminded her of a former lover, Mance.  Jon being half-wildling brings the story in full circle.  The Stark bloodline will again be infused with wildling blood.

Sorry, but all you did here was give a list of personality traits for Mance and Lyanna, with a pinch of in-universe history and a whole lot of speculation based on absolutely nothing. 

As to the bold, no. The important thing about the wildling bloodlines is that they're the closest there is to pure FM blood. 

[Damsel in Distress]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, but all you did here was give a list of personality traits for Mance and Lyanna, with a pinch of in-universe history and a whole lot of speculation based on absolutely nothing. 

As to the bold, no. The important thing about the wildling bloodlines is that they're the closest there is to pure FM blood. 

I see this is another idea we disagree on.  I see Jon as the possible successor to the king beyond the wall.  He is unfit to rule the seven kingdoms but he fits in with the wildlings.  I also predict the wildlings taking control of the north for the duration of the winter and Jon Stark will proclaim himself king in the north.  His reign will end when the snows melt and spring returns. 

[The Fresh PtwP]

14 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Arya will survive the series. 

Coldhands is not anybody we know, but also not just a meat-suit for Bloodraven.

Bloodraven is a good guy and unsung hero of Westeros.

 

You can have my belief in these when GRRM pries them from my traumatized, reading hands.

Yasss. I don't even like Arya though, until the Mery chap, best I read since she offed the Tickler.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I see this is another idea we disagree on.  I see Jon as the possible successor to the king beyond the wall.  He is unfit to rule the seven kingdoms but he fits in with the wildlings.  I also predict the wildlings taking control of the north for the duration of the winter and Jon Stark will proclaim himself king in the north.  His reign will end when the snows melt and spring returns. 

Sorry, wut? What's Jon got to do with any of this? I asked you to explain to me how Mance is Jon's father. You replied but didn't explain anything, and I told you so. And instead of trying to make your point on the matter at hand, you start talking about Jon not being fit to rule Westeros. 

And shouldn't that be Jon Rayder?