Most cowardly deed in ASOIAF.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I will say this about Lord Frey and the Red Wedding, if he was just doing it out of sheer boldness, anger, and IDGAF-ness regarding what anyone thinks, he would not have made sure to get Tywin to sign off on it. Having that insurance plan first pretty much proves how much of a coward he is. He never would have done it without a guarantee from Tywin that he would face zero official punishment. 

[Makk]

19 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

@Makk While I see where you're coming from, and while I don't equate evilness with cowardice, I'm going to have to disagree with your point about the Red Wedding.

While it was definitely morally reprehensible, as I'm sure most will agree, I would also label it as pretty cowardly. It would be one thing to lie to Robb and tell him there would be a wedding, only to betray him the minute he walked through the gates, or do the same as he leaves afterwards or even to turn on him in battle. All three are scummy thing to do, no doubt, but at least it would give the Northmen a fighting chance. The fact that Frey would only take this one chance to have his revenge when he had the backing of the Bolton's, Karstark's, Lannister's and Tyrell's and even then only when Robb's men were drunk and vulnerable in the belief that they were safe under guest right just screams cowardice to me.

Also consider that the Frey's alone could raise 4000 men at least, and the 3500 infantry that arrived at the Twins were Lannister men now, then Frey meeting Robb in battle wouldn't be stupid, because he would outnumber Robb's cavalry force nearly two to one and would have the element of surprise on their side. It would be both honorable (sort of, I guess?) and is a way of getting revenge that wouldn't have the Frey's blacklisted as the scum of Westeros by damn near everyone. So, yes, the RW was a cowardly act.

If you can win a battle without losing any men, or win a battle losing most of your men, it is extremely stupid to pick the latter. Getting assurance from those in power that your "treason" is pardoned before you act is also common sense and cautious, but not what I would automatically call cowardly.

[StepStark]

20 hours ago, Makk said:

I have never naturally equated evil with cowardice, I think it is a very misused term when people do.

Good point, but unfortunately, many people here confuse those two things. All these acts are mentioned here and all indeed are wrong (some are outright morally disgusting) and none of them are brave, however they are not cowardly:

- Red Wedding

- Theon murdering miller's boys

- Robert ordering the hit on Dany

- Robert tolerating Cercei and the Lannisters

- Barristan and the rest of KG tolerating cruelty of kings they serve

- Joff leaving the battlefield

- Joff ordering the beating of Sansa

- Sansa lying at the Trident

- Stannis leaving KL and going to Dragonstone

- Ramsay hunting people with dogs

And I probably forgot some, but the thing is, if something is dishonest it doesn't mean it's cowardly. Walder Frey knows how insanely dishonest his RW actions are, and he's got to be aware of potential ramifications, but he does it anyway, so while it's definitely not an example of bravery, it's also not the cowardice either. True cowardice would be to keep informing Tywin secretly and lure Robb into some Lannisters' trap. There was not a shred of bravery or honor in the murder of two miller's boys too, but again it doesn't mean it was a cowardly act by Theon. He was trying to hide his deep inner insecurity, but that's not the same thing at all. And so on, you get the idea.

What I think is by far the most cowardly act in the entire series is the sacking of King's Landing. It was literally the most cowardly thing to do at that point, because even staying neutral to the very end would be braver. When he was afraid to stay neutral any longer, Tywin got involved into the war, but he was afraid of facing any side on the battlefield, so he opted for trickery and deceiving which resulted in thousands of innocent deaths. I can't think of anything that topples this.

[Adam Yozza]

3 hours ago, StepStark said:

Good point, but unfortunately, many people here confuse those two things. All these acts are mentioned here and all indeed are wrong (some are outright morally disgusting) and none of them are brave, however they are not cowardly:

- Red Wedding

- Theon murdering miller's boys

- Robert ordering the hit on Dany

- Robert tolerating Cercei and the Lannisters

- Barristan and the rest of KG tolerating cruelty of kings they serve

- Joff leaving the battlefield

- Joff ordering the beating of Sansa

- Sansa lying at the Trident

- Stannis leaving KL and going to Dragonstone

- Ramsay hunting people with dogs

And I probably forgot some, but the thing is, if something is dishonest it doesn't mean it's cowardly. Walder Frey knows how insanely dishonest his RW actions are, and he's got to be aware of potential ramifications, but he does it anyway, so while it's definitely not an example of bravery, it's also not the cowardice either. True cowardice would be to keep informing Tywin secretly and lure Robb into some Lannisters' trap. There was not a shred of bravery or honor in the murder of two miller's boys too, but again it doesn't mean it was a cowardly act by Theon. He was trying to hide his deep inner insecurity, but that's not the same thing at all. And so on, you get the idea.

What I think is by far the most cowardly act in the entire series is the sacking of King's Landing. It was literally the most cowardly thing to do at that point, because even staying neutral to the very end would be braver. When he was afraid to stay neutral any longer, Tywin got involved into the war, but he was afraid of facing any side on the battlefield, so he opted for trickery and deceiving which resulted in thousands of innocent deaths. I can't think of anything that topples this.

Except by your logic the sack of King's Landing isn't cowardice but pragmatism. You say Tywin was scared to stay neutral so he sacked King's Landing in an act of cowardice, yet also claim that Frey being too scared to face Robb in any sort of battle; where losses would be minimum, due to the massive advantage the Frey's would have; isn't cowardice. 

Also, you say Frey knew of the political ramifications of his actions, and maybe he did. But Frey seems short sighted enough to ignore those ramifications in order to get his revenge, which means that no element of the RW could be in anyway brave and is instead just plain stupid.

Theon was also trying to cover up his own shortcomings, because he was terrified of what both his men and the subjugated people of Winterfell would do if they thought the Bran's party had escaped. So he killed two innocent boys to cover it up. So no, not trying to cover up inner insecurity, trying to make sure his rule over Winterfell isn't threatened. In addition, boastful, arrogant Theon who thinks he's a good warrior also threatened to hang Beth Cassel just because he too afraid to face a single old knight in single combat, an action which, win or lose, would have saved the lives of his men who were practically doomed already. I'd say almost everything Theon does in Clash is cowardice.

[StepStark]

3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Except by your logic the sack of King's Landing isn't cowardice but pragmatism. You say Tywin was scared to stay neutral so he sacked King's Landing in an act of cowardice, yet also claim that Frey being too scared to face Robb in any sort of battle; where losses would be minimum, due to the massive advantage the Frey's would have; isn't cowardice. 

Also, you say Frey knew of the political ramifications of his actions, and maybe he did. But Frey seems short sighted enough to ignore those ramifications in order to get his revenge, which means that no element of the RW could be in anyway brave and is instead just plain stupid.

Theon was also trying to cover up his own shortcomings, because he was terrified of what both his men and the subjugated people of Winterfell would do if they thought the Bran's party had escaped. So he killed two innocent boys to cover it up. So no, not trying to cover up inner insecurity, trying to make sure his rule over Winterfell isn't threatened. In addition, boastful, arrogant Theon who thinks he's a good warrior also threatened to hang Beth Cassel just because he too afraid to face a single old knight in single combat, an action which, win or lose, would have saved the lives of his men who were practically doomed already. I'd say almost everything Theon does in Clash is cowardice.

I think that I stated clear enough that neither RW nor Theon's actions can be considered brave in any way. And I also agree that both are pretty stupid. But that doesn't mean it was cowardice. About Theon facing an old knight in a single combat, it was never an option. And yes, he knows that threatening Beth is a vile and disgraceful thing to do, but he's not entirely wrong when he says that he was in Beth's shoes for ten years. Of course there is a difference between having a hostage like Beth even before the battle and taking a ward like Theon after the war is finished, but I think Theon at the end of Clash is more desperate than coward. While contrary to that, Tywin wasn't desperate and he wasn't insulted when he decided to sack KL. The sack of KL was the course of action that was safest for him and cruelest for thousands of innocent civilians, which is why it's not comparable to RW and Theon.

[theMADdestScientist_]

On 10/02/2017 at 6:01 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

For me is Rhaegar’s actions after ToHH; he eloped with Lyanna and proved how coward he was by hiding in the middle of nowhere for a year having coitus while a war, he had helped to started, was ranging all across Westeros and thousands people were killed because of his actions or as even Barri the moral coward said

I have to be cautious on this one, the story is far from being finished, and we know literally nothing about the events that led to the rebellion, only what the winners says, and they can say whatever they want, we also don't know much about the characters that really matters, to judge this only because of it's aftermath, that's not how a story works.

A coward person is someone who does not answer for it's actions, no matter what that may be, and Rhaegar answered for his actions, and he died doing so, calling him a coward is like calling Walder Frey a brave man.

 

The most cowardly act, at least for me, would be Gerold Dayne (aka Darkstar) trying to kill Myrcella, not only he tried to kill her, but failed to do so, as if being a coward is not enough, he is also an incompetent. For me, everything that involves the killing of children, i take it as the highest level of cowardice, killing, condoning, atempting it, doesn't matter for me, i'm like Ned on this one, i wouldn't last for too long in westeros i fear.

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

A coward person is someone who does not answer for it's actions, no matter what that may be, and Rhaegar answered for his actions, and he died doing so, calling him a coward is like calling Walder Frey a brave man.

He did not answer for his actions really. he screwed up and then he died fighting the rebellions who wanted their stolen daughter/ betrothed back. if he was not in hiding for almost a year he could've handled the situation better, he could've prevented the war. but he vanished and left the kingdom in the hands of his mad father and did not return until it was too late.

 

 

 

[theMADdestScientist_]

1 minute ago, winter daughter said:

the rebellions who wanted their stolen daughter/ betrothed back

Actually, what they really wanted was Aerys out of the throne.

 

2 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

but he vanished and left the kingdom in the hands of his mad father

He didn't left the kingdom at the hands of anyone at all, he is only the Crown Prince, Aerys is the King, and the kingdom has always been in his hands, because he is the "king".

 

[winter daughter]

8 hours ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

Actually, what they really wanted was Aerys out of the throne.

You are right. I should've mentioned that too. They wanted Aerys out of the throne as well. Because Aerys wanted their heads. And before that he killed Richard and Brandon Stark and their companions. and he killed them because Brandon went to the court seeking Rhaegar the crown prince who he thought had stolen his sister.

8 hours ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

He didn't left the kingdom at the hands of anyone at all, he is only the Crown Prince, Aerys is the King, and the kingdom has always been in his hands, because he is the "king".

Yes, he was the crown prince and very well-loved and respected. and he knew he had the power to make important decisions.

Quote

When the battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.

So I think he could restrain his mad father and handle the situation better.

[Lion of the West]

Probably the Red Wedding, its hard to top that. Although the Purple Wedding where they set up Tyrion to take the blame also comes pretty close in cowardice, regardless of how necessary Joffrey's death may have been.

[Boarsbane]

9 hours ago, StepStark said:

I think that I stated clear enough that neither RW nor Theon's actions can be considered brave in any way. And I also agree that both are pretty stupid. But that doesn't mean it was cowardice. About Theon facing an old knight in a single combat, it was never an option. And yes, he knows that threatening Beth is a vile and disgraceful thing to do, but he's not entirely wrong when he says that he was in Beth's shoes for ten years. Of course there is a difference between having a hostage like Beth even before the battle and taking a ward like Theon after the war is finished, but I think Theon at the end of Clash is more desperate than coward. While contrary to that, Tywin wasn't desperate and he wasn't insulted when he decided to sack KL. The sack of KL was the course of action that was safest for him and cruelest for thousands of innocent civilians, which is why it's not comparable to RW and Theon.

Jaime was in KL and hostage, I doubt he wanted to risk the rebels getting to Aerys first and Jaime possibly fighting them or Aerys killing him, because you can bet the rebels aren't going to put the same value on his life as Tywin would. The Sack is treacherous for sure but there is nothing particularly cowardly about it, no more so than the RW. It's stated there were thousands of loyalist soldiers in the city so even with the gates opened to him it wouldn't of been as easy a prospect as slaughtering people at the dinner table like Walder did or killing two little boys like Theon did.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

12 hours ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

A coward person is someone who does not answer for it's actions, no matter what that may be, and Rhaegar answered for his actions, and he died doing so, calling him a coward is like calling Walder Frey a brave man.

He didn't. If he did he would had been fought in the war since the beginning.

[theMADdestScientist_]

16 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He didn't. If he did he would had been fought in the war since the beginning.

Ok then...if everything was that simple.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, LordDraymonDarklyn said:

Ok then...if everything was that simple.

It is that simple. Rhaegar was hiding for almost a year not a couple of days or even weeks almost a year.

[StepStark]

8 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Jaime was in KL and hostage, I doubt he wanted to risk the rebels getting to Aerys first and Jaime possibly fighting them or Aerys killing him, because you can bet the rebels aren't going to put the same value on his life as Tywin would. The Sack is treacherous for sure but there is nothing particularly cowardly about it, no more so than the RW. It's stated there were thousands of loyalist soldiers in the city so even with the gates opened to him it wouldn't of been as easy a prospect as slaughtering people at the dinner table like Walder did or killing two little boys like Theon did.

Easy crime is not the same as cowardly crime. Yes, killing two young boys is extremely easy, and yes, slaughtering soldiers at the dinner table is much easier than facing them on a battlefield, but the level of cowardice is not measured only by that. Enraging the entire North even more, and that's what Theon effectively did with the false murders of Bran and Rickon, is many things (stupid most of all), but it's not cowardly. It's definitely not brave, because Theon clearly isn't thinking straight at that point and doesn't seem to care about anything other than his "great plan", but it isn't cowardice either. And I think RW is a similar case in that sense, because Walder doesn't seem to care about anything other than his "damaged reputation". It's stupid and immoral and insane, but not cowardly.

About the sack of KL, it's not that Tywin cared too much about Jaime anyway. In the end, Jaime's decision to turn against Aerys was what saved Jaime's life. If Jaime stayed loyal to Aerys, he'd die that day too most probably. Tywin's actions played no part in that. But the sack is so cowardly because there literally isn't an easier way to defeat your opponent and slaughter thousands of his innocent civilian subjects along the way without risking anything personally. And also because of what I already said, that even staying neutral was more risky for Tywin at that point, because whoever emerged victorious at the end of the rebellion would consider him disloyal. Literally any other course of action by Tywin would have been braver and more honorable, which is the very definition of cowardice at its worst.

[Boarsbane]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

Easy crime is not the same as cowardly crime. Yes, killing two young boys is extremely easy, and yes, slaughtering soldiers at the dinner table is much easier than facing them on a battlefield, but the level of cowardice is not measured only by that. Enraging the entire North even more, and that's what Theon effectively did with the false murders of Bran and Rickon, is many things (stupid most of all), but it's not cowardly. It's definitely not brave, because Theon clearly isn't thinking straight at that point and doesn't seem to care about anything other than his "great plan", but it isn't cowardice either. And I think RW is a similar case in that sense, because Walder doesn't seem to care about anything other than his "damaged reputation". It's stupid and immoral and insane, but not cowardly.

About the sack of KL, it's not that Tywin cared too much about Jaime anyway. In the end, Jaime's decision to turn against Aerys was what saved Jaime's life. If Jaime stayed loyal to Aerys, he'd die that day too most probably. Tywin's actions played no part in that. But the sack is so cowardly because there literally isn't an easier way to defeat your opponent and slaughter thousands of his innocent civilian subjects along the way without risking anything personally. And also because of what I already said, that even staying neutral was more risky for Tywin at that point, because whoever emerged victorious at the end of the rebellion would consider him disloyal. Literally any other course of action by Tywin would have been braver and more honorable, which is the very definition of cowardice at its worst.

The RW is cowardly because Walder wouldn't of done it without Tywin to protect and reward him after doing it, I'm sure he enjoyed himself in the process but without Tywin's assurances and help from Roose he would of never been bold enough to do it.

Tywin obviously cared about Jaime, he tells Tyrion, I think, he was worried what Aerys or Jaime might do. If Tywin doesn't sack the city then Aerys likely burns it to the ground and Jaime along with it, there is no way they'd survive a siege while Ned's men sat outside the walls or stormed them. Unlike Walder, Tywin had no assurances from Robert that he'd be pardoned or rewarded for what he did, he also couldn't be sure that Aerys would let him into the city when he set off for King's Landing. Staying neutral would of meant nothing, there would be no risk and no reward, Robert isn't going to attack him for not fighting in a war he had no interests in. I don't see how someone can consider the sack cowardly and at the same time think the RW isn't.

[StepStark]

20 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

I don't see how someone can consider the sack cowardly and at the same time think the RW isn't.

Maybe you are right in a way. In my eyes, RW is something like annihilating the entire house (Reynes of Castamere), which is vicious and inhuman before everything else, but not necessarily cowardly. Sacking a city full of civilians (that's a big difference for me) is also inhuman, but the way he entered KL, and that is, pretending to come to the rescue to a city which was desperate for a help (Robb's army wasn't nearly as desperate), is what makes me paint it as cowardly first and foremost.

[Roswell]

When Sansa lied about Nymeria to please Joff. 

[Wolf's Bane]

Robb using honor as his excuse for breaking his oath to Lord Walder and choosing Jeyne Westerling.  Robb tried to hide behind honor which is a hypocrisy when you consider that he broke  an oath.  His oath to Walder carried greater importance and determined the welfare of many people.  Whatever he owed Jeyne after they screwed was tiny compared what he owed the Freys and the other families who fought for him.  Robb took the cowardly way out and used honor as his excuse.  It was both cowardly and dishonest on Robb's part.

[Tianzi]

1 hour ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

Robb using honor as his excuse for breaking his oath to Lord Walder and choosing Jeyne Westerling.  Robb tried to hide behind honor which is a hypocrisy when you consider that he broke  an oath.  His oath to Walder carried greater importance and determined the welfare of many people.  Whatever he owed Jeyne after they screwed was tiny compared what he owed the Freys and the other families who fought for him.  Robb took the cowardly way out and used honor as his excuse.  It was both cowardly and dishonest on Robb's part.

What?

Definitely dumb and dishonorable (I agree with everything about his obligations to his people being WAY more important that obligations to Jeyne), but actually quite brave. And there is absolutely nothing suggesting he used it as a pretext to escape his oath to Frey.