Most cowardly deed in ASOIAF.

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

And? 

When he wasn't smashing someone with his hammer, almost everything he did in his life embodied cowardice.  Two that spring immediately to mind:  allowing Tywin to get away with the murder of the Targaryen children without any accountability (in fact, he rewarded him!) and being badgered by Cersei into killing Lady.  Enormous consequences rippling into the future for multiple parties, just from those two (non-)acts of (non-)leadership.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

allowing Tywin to get away with the murder of the Targaryen children without any accountability

Allowing means either that someone asks for your permission to do something or that you have the power to stop it and you chose not to. Which of those two happened?

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

being badgered by Cersei into killing Lady

So effing what? It's his house his rules. If he didn't wanted Lady in his house he had the right to do it.

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Allowing means either that someone asks for your permission to do something or that you have the power to stop it and you chose not to. Which of those two happened?

Let's rephrase.  The opposite of cowardice is bravery -- and being brave means acting when it's uncomfortable to do so.  Did Robert ever take a stand when it was vaguely uncomfortable for him?

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So effing what? It's his house his rules. If he didn't wanted Lady in his house he had the right to do it.

Sure.  So let's rephrase that one as well:  If he didn't want Lady killed, he had every right not to have her killed!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

Let's rephrase.  The opposite of cowardice is bravery -- and being brave means acting when it's uncomfortable to do so.  Did Robert ever take a stand when it was vaguely uncomfortable for him?

Did he had to punish all the crimes that had happened before he became the King?

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

Sure.  So let's rephrase that one as well:  If he didn't want Lady killed, he had every right not to have her killed!

Why he had to care tho? 

[ravenous reader]

18 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Did he had to punish all the crimes that had happened before he became the King?

Endorsing the killing of children is probably not a good way to start ones reign.  In essence, he leapfrogged onto the throne on the backs of savaged children-- that's the reality of how people often come to power, but not something I have to admire.  (The question in your OP as to 'cowardly deed' implies a moral judgment, which is a judgment of character and the different choices different people might make under similar circumstances, not merely an evaluation of logistics).

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Why he had to care tho? 

Two things:  

First, he supposedly cared about his friend Ned, who most certainly cared about Sansa and therefore Lady, so it follows he should too.  What's more, he later confesses to Ned, when apologizing for Lady's death (which should tell you a thing or two about Robert's true feelings in the matter) that he's well aware of Joffrey's antisocial tendencies and suspected him, not Lady, of being in the wrong.  In other words, he's conscious of once again in his life condoning (and moreover being complicit in) the wanton murder of innocents.  Perhaps the cowardice wouldn't be so heinous, were Robert truly oblivious as to what he's doing -- but what makes his cowardice so egregious is that he knows what he's doing.  He knows better.  Unlike Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey, Robert actually has a conscience; has empathy.  He's just too cowardly to live by it.  That's why he hightails it out of the court room with 'dead leaden eyes'.

Second, as I've already touched on, Robert betrays his true feelings -- i.e. that he really didn't want to have to kill Lady; that it bothered him that he did -- by his agitation, outbursts, attempts though fruitless to bargain with or cow Cersei, shiftiness, averting his eyes, etc.

In summary, he cared, but not enough to act 'boldly' (isn't a king supposed to 'act boldly'..?)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Endorsing the killing of children is probably not a good way to start ones reign.  

Endorsing means that he had the way to stop it. Last time I read the books Tywin hadn't asked for his permission.

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

In essence, he leapfrogged onto the throne on the backs of savaged children

Not true. It was Rhaegar's back. The deaths of Rhaegar's children were not Robert's fault, he had no way of stopping them.

4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

First, he supposedly cared about his friend Ned, who most certainly cared about Sansa and therefore Lady, so it follows he should too

True. But no where it is told that he had to do everything that Ned wanted. 

5 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

In summary, he cared, but not enough to act 'boldly' (isn't a king supposed to 'act boldly'..?)

Or simply he did it for the same reason people do things that they have to do. On one habd you claim that Robert is to blame for not doing what some people would had done and on the other hand you blame him for doing what some people would had done?

[ravenous reader]

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Endorsing means that he had the way to stop it. Last time I read the books Tywin hadn't asked for his permission.

Not true. It was Rhaegar's back. The deaths of Rhaegar's children were not Robert's fault, he had no way of stopping them.

It's not about stopping something or someone.  It's about holding someone accountable, once the crime has transpired.  Without that, civilization breaks down.

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True. But no where it is told that he had to do everything that Ned wanted. 

You asked me why he should care.  Ned was his friend -- like a brother -- and he'd just asked him to be his Hand.  Oh -- that was another supreme act of Robert's cowardice, asking someone he knew he could push around to be his Hand, instead of his brother Stannis who wouldn't have been such a walkover, and eminently more healthy for the kingdom.

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Or simply he did it for the same reason people do things that they have to do.

He was passive and 'pussy-whipped'.  Does that impress you in a man?

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On one habd you claim that Robert is to blame for not doing what some people would had done and on the other hand you blame him for doing what some people would had done?

Could you please elaborate?  I blame him for not doing what he could have done.  He wielded enormous power recklessly -- and hurt a lot of people as a result.

[Tianzi]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

When he wasn't smashing someone with his hammer, almost everything he did in his life embodied cowardice.  Two that spring immediately to mind:  allowing Tywin to get away with the murder of the Targaryen children without any accountability (in fact, he rewarded him!) and being badgered by Cersei into killing Lady.  Enormous consequences rippling into the future for multiple parties, just from those two (non-)acts of (non-)leadership.

That.

Robert was battle-brave, but his civil courage was definitely poor. He even admitted himself not being able to deal with someone when he couldn't use force. I'd add marital-raping his wife and saying 'it wasn't me, it was wine' the next morning.

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Did he had to punish all the crimes that had happened before he became the King?

The ones committed during the rebellion fought in his name, by people on his side? When Tywin brought to him dead bodies like a cat to his owner, and Robert gave him a big bowl of cream in reward?

Btw, he wasn't that much better at punishing the crimes that happened after he became king, eg.: Jaime wounding Ned.

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Why he had to care tho? 

Because it was not a quarrel between two kennel masters, but a part of a conflict involving a royal party and the Hand's family, which was brought to his authority to give a verdict, and the dude practically ran out off the hall when he could? Also it was practically spelled out that he really didn't desire this and hated Cersei for her wish, but didn't have the balls to stand up to her, because oh no, she would be mean(er) to him.

[khal drogon]

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Yet they one way or the other were *leading* the war by making the plans, Dany just use the dragons to take down the ridiculous enemies she has. 

Dany is yet to use her dragons in actual warfare. May I have your copy of the books?

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Sure. Winning not one but two wars is nothing.

By that logic Dany won three.

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Robert also won battles and it was his charisma and talent that won at the battlefield. He made his enemies to die for him and he killed Rhaegar, not Ned or Jon or Tywin. It was all Robert. He won the Throne. Dany on the other hand used the power Drogo gave to her and after that used the power the dragons gave to her. When she did something based on her own self with no magic, no dragons and no one else to protect her?

Killing Rhaegar =/= winning the war. How involved he is in winning the war? What strategies he made? What alliances he made? Did he have the final say in every decision of the war like Dany? Without answering these questions you can't say it was all Robert.

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She decided to free them because she couldn’t pay for them. She took no risk to free them, since the dragons and the Dothraki kept her safe.

 

Loads and Loads of misinformation. I doubt you have ever read her chapters.

Her deciding to free them because she can't pay? Loads of ridiculous misinformation. In fact it was the opposite. She agreed to Jorah's plan which was to buy only 1000 Unsullied from the fortune she had in her three ships. That too was to have a leverage while she treats with Illyrio. Only after seeing how the Unsullied are made she devised a plan to liberate the city by buying all the Unsullied and thus making the dragon deal. The fact is she bought every Unsullied to free the city. It is definitely a risky move. She gambled on the trustworthiness of the Unsullied and one mistake she will have the worst possible fate and her baby dragons will be slaughtered. In fact she could pay for them with her valuable dragons but she had other plans.

In Yunkai it was her strategy to get her enemies drunk weakened them. In that battle it was her plan from deciding the time of the battle to the battle strategies. 

In Meereen too she had a final say in devising battle strategies and her strategies are what won her the battle.

 It was her cunning and charisma won her things for the most part and was keeping her army together. The fact that she could inspire slaves as far as in Volantis shows how earned her position is. From the remnants of Drogo's khalasar to her freedmen it was themselves who chose to follow her which says how earned her position is. 

Give credit where it is due. If Robert deserve credits then Dany deserves even more credits.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

54 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

the rebellion fought in his name

The Rebellion wasn't fought in his name. 

54 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

by people on his side

Tywin wasn't on the Rebels' side.

54 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Btw, he wasn't that much better at punishing the crimes that happened after he became king, eg.: Jaime wounding Ned.

Ned's wife had kidnapped his brother in law and Jaime was *protecting* his brother

When Tywin brought to him dead bodies like a cat to his owner, and Robert gave him a big bowl of cream in reward?

Again. Tywin was never his. He had no reason to punish someone who was never his ally for something he did before he came to power. By your logic Robb should had punished the Tullys for what they did after the Rebellion.

54 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Because it was not a quarrel between two kennel masters, but a part of a conflict involving a royal party and the Hand's family, which was brought to his authority to give a verdict, and the dude practically ran out off the hall when he could? Also it was practically spelled out that he really didn't desire this and hated Cersei for her wish, but didn't have the balls to stand up to her, because oh no, she would be mean(er) to him.

If he had to deal with it as a *normal* King would had done Arya would had been punished. Severely. The Starks were lucky that it was Robert who was never a cruel person.

43 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Give credit where it is due. If Robert deserve credits then Dany deserves even more credits.

Sure because fighting a war with your own powers and make others fight your war and then name yourself the King is the same thing.

[khal drogon]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Sure because fighting a war with your own powers and make others fight your war and then name yourself the King is the same thing.

Making others fight for him is how Robert won too. Physical power is not the only power that matters.  

[Ser Snowflake]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Has she ever lead the army? Has she ever fought in a battle in the front line just like a leader would had done? 

She led her army against Ataspor, the Yunkai, and Mereen. In Ataspor she showed guile and courage by buying all unsullied, freeing them, and using them to take city, freeing all the slaves. She devised this all by herself, even whipping Kraznys in his face with his own whip.

it was her plan in Yunkai to meet with the slavers, lull them into a false sense of security and take them unawares.

Dany is the undisputed leader of her army. You can call the Dragon many things, but a coward isn't one of them. In fact, she is one of the most courageous person in ASOIAF. She went from being a scared little girl, crying at the sight of her new barbarian husband to conquering three ancient cities on SB. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

32 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Making others fight for him is how Robert won too. Physical power is not the only power that matters.  

Robert was fighting in the frond line as one of them. Dany was hiding behing her dragons and armies there is no similarity.

27 minutes ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

Dany is the undisputed leader of her army.

She is a boss not a leader. 

[Tianzi]

31 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

The Rebellion wasn't fought in his name. 

Robert was one of the leaders.

32 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Tywin wasn't on the Rebels' side.

Sure, he was just a bystander. And that's why he brought his 'gifts' to Robert. And Robert just washed his hands and said: 'Dude, why are you even showing this to me, go take this carcass elsewhere'.

Robert basically gave his sign under Tywin's murder.

35 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Ned's wife had kidnapped his brother in law and Jaime was *protecting* his brother

Protecting how?

And while we on it, if there was a problem with kidnapping Tyrion, what did Robert do with that?

Can we stop treating this dude like he was not responsible for anything? Shit was going on right under his nose and he didn't have the spine to react to almost anything. (save for things triggering his Targ-butthurt)

39 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Again. Tywin was never his. He had no reason to punish someone who was never his ally for something he did before he came to power. By your logic Robb should had punished the Tullys for what they did after the Rebellion.

Meaning?

Also, if someone volunteered to join Robb's side with bringing Tommen and Myrcella's corpses, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be that welcoming. If Karstark's case is any indication, Robb actually had the balls to condemn this kind of practice even if it had bad consequences for him.

43 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

If he had to deal with it as a *normal* King would had done Arya would had been punished. Severely. The Starks were lucky that it was Robert who was never a cruel person.

Yes, Robert was a real gem between Joffrey and Aerys, but this is not the topic.

The topic is that he basically let Cersei browbeat him into this decision (can we imagine someone speaking to, say, Tywin that way publicly?) even though he didn't agree with it, then wasn't even able to bring it about. It wasn't that he was obliged to listen to Ned. It wasn't that a king is obliged to personally execute dogs. It's that he didn't really have the spine to tell Cersei or Ned to kiss off, and own up to his decision. He just ran away with the tail between his legs.

Agreeing to Lady's death isn far to being the worst thing in the books or the worst Robert's done, but it's a textbook example of cowardice.

[khal drogon]

12 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Robert was fighting in the frond line as one of them. Dany was hiding behing her dragons and armies there is no similarity.

She is a boss not a leader. 

Stannis didn't fight in the front line either in Blackwater or Deepwood Motte. Tywin didn't too in his battles. They commanded from the back. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Stannis didn't fight in the front line either in Blackwater or Deepwood Motte. Tywin didn't too in his battles. They commanded from the back. 

They had planned the battle and they hadn't used WMD.

12 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Robert was one of the leaders.

That doesn't mean that it was fought in his name. 

13 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Sure, he was just a bystander. And that's why he brought his 'gifts' to Robert. And Robert just washed his hands and said: 'Dude, why are you even showing this to me, go take this carcass elsewhere'.

Robert basically gave his sign under Tywin's murder.

Could Robert had done anything to change it? After all since all blame Robert for letting Jon rule you have to blame Jon for that too. From all we know Jon hadn't done something either.

16 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Protecting how?

And while we on it, if there was a problem with kidnapping Tyrion, what did Robert do with that?

Can we stop treating this dude like he was not responsible for anything? Shit was going on right under his nose and he didn't have the spine to react to almost anything. (save for things triggering his Targ-butthurt)

You say that he should had punished Jaime for attacking Ned but he also should had punished Ned for Cat attacking Tyrion.

17 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Meaning?

Also, if someone volunteered to join Robb's side with bringing Tommen and Myrcella's corpses, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be that welcoming. 

One of Robb's allies and more importantly his grandfather had committed unspeakable crimes before Robb becoming the King, Since Robert had to punish someone for something that happened before he became the King, Robb had to punish his grandfather for what he had done before he became the King,

19 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

If Karstark's case is any indication, Robb actually had the balls to condemn this kind of practice even if it had bad consequences for him.

That is after Robb becoming the King not before.

20 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Yes, Robert was a real gem between Joffrey and Aerys, but this is not the topic.

The topic is that he basically let Cersei browbeat him into this decision (can we imagine someone speaking to, say, Tywin that way publicly?) even though he didn't agree with it, then wasn't even able to bring it about. It wasn't that he was obliged to listen to Ned. It wasn't that a king is obliged to personally execute dogs. It's that he didn't really have the spine to tell Cersei or Ned to kiss off, and own up to his decision. He just ran away with the tail between his legs.

Agreeing to Lady's death isn far to being the worst thing in the books or the worst Robert's done, but it's a textbook example of cowardice.

Not really. Any King or even Lord who had his son attacked by an underling would had punished that underling severaly, Lady is a small price to pay for what Arya did. 

[rotting sea cow]

36 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Robert was fighting in the frond line as one of them. Dany was hiding behing her dragons and armies there is no similarity.

She is a boss not a leader. 

She is a leader, without doubt. Just see how Meeren is falling apart after her departure and it is not only thanks to the dragon.

Showing courage on the battlefield is not the only way to be brave. You are mistaken there. Stannis leaving the security of Dragonstone to defend the Wall is an act of courage. Jon letting the wilding pass through the Wall is too. These were risky actions that could cost them everything and in Jon's case it may have cost his life. Dany freeing the slaves was also a very courageous act. Dany staying in Meeren was too. What was Meeren for her? Apparently nothing or... everything.

I don't think Robert was coward either. Starting and leading a rebellion against the throne was also a courageous act.

 

 

[Tianzi]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That doesn't mean that it was fought in his name. 

The name itself came later, but it was fought for his cause and as a leader he takes responsibility. Also he was the decision maker when Tywin brought him the bodies, wasn't he?

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Could Robert had done anything to change it? After all since all blame Robert for letting Jon rule you have to blame Jon for that too. From all we know Jon hadn't done something either.

Change? No. React in a more appropriate way? Yes.

I don't blame Robert for letting Jon rule and I don't remember Jon's stance on this particular matter. Remind me? And remind me, who had the last word there?

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You say that he should had punished Jaime for attacking Ned but he also should had punished Ned for Cat attacking Tyrion.

I say that he should have punished any of them if they did something he considered a crime, yes.

9 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

One of Robb's allies and more importantly his grandfather had committed unspeakable crimes before Robb becoming the King, Since Robert had to punish someone for something that happened before he became the King, Robb had to punish his grandfather for what he had done before he became the King,

Who. When. What.

10 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That is after Robb becoming the King not before.

True. This however speaks for his character and not running away from uncomfortable decisions, so I used is as a comparison.

11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not really. Any King or even Lord who had his son attacked by an underling would had punished that underling severaly, Lady is a small price to pay for what Arya did. 

Lady was a bullshit price and Robert knew it. But the main thing is that he did what he did because the big bad Cersei yelled at him.

 

Also, any king? let's look at the immediate surroundings.

Robb? I don't really see him ordering harming a 10 yo kid because of a kid fight.

Renly? He was amused by the original incident, so fat chance.

Balon Greyjoy? Sooner would have given a beating for his teenage heir for being defeated by a little girl.

Stannis? Well, he could have the biggest problem with someone harming his son's royal ass, but he's also serious about justice and royal responsibilities, so I also see him mainly concerned about his son's behaviour. Well, he would probably put down all the direwolves around. But because he'd decide it's right and not because his wife was bitching at him.

Joffrey? Yeah. Robert looks real good compared to Joffrey.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

She is a leader, without doubt. Just see how Meeren is falling apart after her departure and it is not only thanks to the dragon.

The sons of Harpy were in Meereen long before her departure too. After her departure one of the WMD is gone.

4 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Dany staying in Meeren was too.

No it wasn't. It was the safe thing to do, what else she could do?. She had nowhere else to go. She needed more power and the time for her dragons to grow that wasn't brave.

4 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I don't think Robert was coward either. Starting and leading a rebellion against the throne was also a courageous act.

He didn't started it, that was Jon. He was one of the leaders tho.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

The name itself came later, but it was fought for his cause and as a leader he takes responsibility. Also he was the decision maker when Tywin brought him the bodies, wasn't he?

He was one of the leaders and after that the others chose him.

2 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I don't blame Robert for letting Jon rule and I don't remember Jon's stance on this particular matter. Remind me? And remind me, who had the last word there?

From the leaders f the Rebels only Ned seemed to care no one else. Why? Because they were smart enough to know that they couldn't change what had happened and that Tywin was dangerous.

4 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I say that he should have punished any of them if they did something he considered a crime, yes.

Then why you blame him only for not punishing Jaime for attacking Ned?

5 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Who. When. What.

Hoster had putted villages to the sword because their lord followed the King rather than the Rebels.

8 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Lady was a bullshit price and Robert knew it. But the main thing is that he did what he did because the big bad Cersei yelled at him.

And she was right. The *prince* was injured, that couldn't be left unpunished.

[Tianzi]

17 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He was one of the leaders and after that the others chose him.

So he is the one to decide how to reward or punish. Back to square one.

19 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

From the leaders f the Rebels only Ned seemed to care no one else. Why? Because they were smart enough to know that they couldn't change what had happened and that Tywin was dangerous.

In Robert's case we can list 'hateful because Targaryens' and 'glad someone did the dirty work for him' right before 'smart enough'.

20 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Then why you blame him only for not punishing Jaime for attacking Ned?

I gave it as one example of how he sucked in punishing the crimes committed when he was the King, not just before. Want to add more? Fine with me.

22 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Hoster had putted villages to the sword because their lord followed the King rather than the Rebels.

When?

22 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

And she was right. The *prince* was injured, that couldn't be left unpunished.

Big yay for the psychopath Cersei then.

But Robert didn't really think she was right, he listened to her because she yelled at him and he didn't want to deal with the situation, so still a coward.