Ashara Dayne as Jon Snow's mother

[Quellon]

This is an interesting theory and shouldn't be discarded too easily imo. Fact 1: we know Ashara was in love with Ned. Fact 2: we know they danced together, but it might have not ended there. Fact 3: Jon is exceptionally skilled at arms and if Arthur Dayne is his uncle, then there is a perfect explanation for that. Rhaegar was skilled, but still not as skilled as Arthur, in swordfighting. There are also rumours that Eddard was infatuated with Ashara. Also, Ashara's personality seems to match Jon's. By all accounts she was a delicate person with a melancholy to her, just like Jon. Barristan said Ashara had a stillborn daughter, but who's to say that she didn't also deliver a son? Then it would make perfect sense why Eddard brought Jon with him North, because he had no other home. It happened right after Robert's Rebellion ended, so there would have been time for Ned to do this before he went back home.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

15 minutes ago, Quellon said:

Fact 1: we know Ashara was in love with Ned.

No we don't. I do believe that it was Ned but we were only told that she have looked to a Stark.

Rhaegar was skilled, but still not as skilled as Arthur, in swordfighting

Brandon was also skilled in swordfighting.

15 minutes ago, Quellon said:

By all accounts she was a delicate person with a melancholy to her,

By all accounts Rhaegar was an emo, that is more like Jon when it seems that Ashara had postpartum depression.

It doesn’t make sense for Ashara to be Jon’s mother. If she was his mother why Ned never told him? Why Ned treats the identity of Jon’s mother as a dangerous secret? Why Ned took him to the North when he could had left him in Dorne where Jon would had a much better life? Why are all those text proofs that point to Jon being Lyanna’s son?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Fact 1. We have heard, third-hand at best, from someone born years after the fact, that Ashara was in love with Ned.

Fact 2. We know she danced with Ned, and with a bunch of other guys, and that for some reason unknown to us Howland Reed was keeping tabs on who she danced with.

Fact 3. Jon is decently skilled at arms. Mance is better than he is. Nothing indicates that he has anything like exceptional skills. And nowhere do we see Rhaegar mentioned as significantly less skilled than Ser Arthur Dayne.

Fact 4. Ned was not in Dorne during the war, and Ashara would not have been able to find out where he was and travel to him in time to meet him before he moved on to the next location. She would have been able to travel safely within Dorne because there wasn't really any fighting going on there, but not in the other regions where there was a war going on.

Fact 5. If Ned had gotten Ashara pregnant at Harrenhal, he would have married her because at that time, and for some months after, Brandon was still alive and expected to marry Catelyn. Also, any child conceived at Harrenhal would have been months older than Robb which would preclude the lie that Jon was fathered during the war.

Fact 6. We know nothing about Ashara's personality. The best we've got is that she had "laughing" purple eyes. That's not a sign of a melancholy disposition.

Fact 7. There is absolutely ZERO reason for Ned not to tell at least his wife the truth about Jon unless he firmly believes that the truth is dangerous, which can only mean that Ned believes Jon's father is a Targaryen, and he would not believe that if Jon was his own son. It makes perfect sense not to say anything to Cat at first, when he doesn't even know her, but after 14+ years or marriage, the only excuse is that the truth is dangerous.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

snip

Great list. Can I add the fact that Jon as a bastard would had a much better life in Dorne rathen than the North if Ashara was his mother? 

[DarkSister1001]

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Great list. Can I add the fact that Jon as a bastard would had a much better life in Dorne rathen than the North if Ashara was his mother? 

THANK YOU!

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Great list. Can I add the fact that Jon as a bastard would had a much better life in Dorne rathen than the North if Ashara was his mother? 

An excellent point!

[Orphalesion]

No. No she is not.

Next!

[Quellon]

I guess there is no point in replying to this. Whatever I wrote, you'd just dismiss it. Ned WAS in Dorne just before the war began. The war lasted about a year, right? Or maybe even less. Who says Jon would be better off in Dorne than the North? The Dayne's were now nothing without Arthur and with his mother also gone, who would take care of him? Allyria? She was too young herself back then. And funny you should mention Brandon-my second theory was that Brandon is the father of Jon. But you won't like it, something tells me.

[DarkSister1001]

Just now, Quellon said:

I guess there is no point in replying to this. Whatever I wrote, you'd just dismiss it. Ned WAS in Dorne just before the war began. The war lasted about a year, right? Or maybe even less. Who says Jon would be better off in Dorne than the North? The Dayne's were now nothing without Arthur and with his mother also gone, who would take care of him? Allyria? She was too young herself back then. And funny you should mention Brandon-my second theory was that Brandon is the father of Jon. But you won't like it, something tells me.

Don't get discouraged.  Some of us have just been going over and over these for YEARS.  Our explanations get shorter with each new thread in these topics.   

You should keep looking into these even if not everyone agrees with you. 

[Quellon]

6 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Don't get discouraged.  Some of us have just been going over and over these for YEARS.  Our explanations get shorter with each new thread in these topics.   

You should keep looking into these even if not everyone agrees with you. 

Yeah, thanks. I think one should look at alternative theories, instead of just gushing over R+L=J all the time.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 minutes ago, Quellon said:

Whatever I wrote, you'd just dismiss it.

Not true. We will prove it wrong from what is based in the books.

11 minutes ago, Quellon said:

Ned WAS in Dorne just before the war began.

Can you prove it from the books?

11 minutes ago, Quellon said:

less. Who says Jon would be better off in Dorne than the North?

Yes. Bastards were treated better in Dorne than in the North, it's in the books.

11 minutes ago, Quellon said:

The Dayne's were now nothing without Arthur

The Daynes was not a Great House but where it is written in the books that they were nothing? Heck they had even related with the Targaryens when they were the Royal house and they are still a principal noble in Dorne during the book series.

11 minutes ago, Quellon said:

who would take care of him?

The family. From all we know Arthur's older brother was alive.

11 minutes ago, Quellon said:

But you won't like it, something tells me.

And you would be wrong.

A friendly advise maybe you should find text proofs to support your theory.

I think one should look at alternative theories

I agree. But theories have text proofs only fan fictions are without text proofs.

[Quellon]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not true. We will prove it wrong from what is based in the books.

Can you prove it from the books?

Yes. Bastards were treated better in Dorne than in the North, it's in the books.

The Daynes was not a Great House but where it is written in the books that they were nothing? Heck they had even related with the Targaryens when they were the Royal house and they are still a principal noble in Dorne during the book series.

The family. From all we know Arthur's older brother was alive.

And you would be wrong.

 

 

Maybe you should find text proofs to support your theory.

See? What did I say, a classic troll. Don't even bother to get upset this time, think I'll just ignore your posts in future...

 

[Orphalesion]

1 minute ago, Quellon said:

 I think one should look at alternative theories, instead of just gushing over R+L=J all the time.

Why? Should we also look at alternative theories as to whether Ned is Stark? Or get into the really useless theories again about whether everybody in Westeros is an Orc and the text just hasn't mentioned it?

[DarkSister1001]

1 minute ago, Quellon said:

I think one should look at alternative theories, instead of just gushing over R+L=J all the time.

I think the alternatives came up bc we had too much time on our hands between books and overanalyzed.  Sure, the others are possibilities and frankly R+L=J isn't canon (yet), but it's just too damn solid to ignore. 

Textual evidence is also the best way to get your theories across.  If you don't have your books handy use ASearchoficeandFire.com.  We like quotes. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

40 minutes ago, Quellon said:

See? What did I say, a classic troll. Don't even bother to get upset this time, think I'll just ignore your posts in future...

I am not sure that troll means what you believe that it means, there is nothing insulting at my post just proofs that your "theory" which is nothing new is wrong. Ignoring people that prove you wrong is your choice but it’s my choice to prove you wrong.

38 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

whether everybody in Westeros is an Orc

Now that is interesting and has as many text proofs as Ashara being Jon's mother.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Quellon said:

I guess there is no point in replying to this. Whatever I wrote, you'd just dismiss it. Ned WAS in Dorne just before the war began. The war lasted about a year, right? Or maybe even less. Who says Jon would be better off in Dorne than the North? The Dayne's were now nothing without Arthur and with his mother also gone, who would take care of him? Allyria? She was too young herself back then. And funny you should mention Brandon-my second theory was that Brandon is the father of Jon. But you won't like it, something tells me.

No, not if you bring up a good point, or often overlooked fact.

Ned being in Dorne prior to the war doesn't work because Jon has to be younger than Robb and Robb was conceived after the war had started. But I'd like more info on that. How do we know Ned was in Dorne before the war started?

Yes, the war lasted about a year. Probably not much less. Assuming the war lasts a full year, Jon has to be conceived three months in. 

The idea of Jon being better off in Dorne is because the Dornish culture doesn't stigmatize bastards the way the rest of Westeros does.

Arthur and Ashara had an older brother who lived past the war, he's Edric's father. We also don't know if that generation's father was dead yet at that point, or their mother. We just know by the time the series starts only Edric and Allyria are left. 

 

[The Hammer of Justice]

4 hours ago, Quellon said:

Fact 3: Jon is exceptionally skilled at arms

This! Why people keep telling this? where did everybody get the idea Jon is a good fighter? He seems pretty average for me, he didn't even have to fight a good enemy yet so we can better evaluate his fighting skills

And second: fighting skills are not hereditary, they don't pass from father to son (MUCH less from uncle to nephew), if that was true, Samwell Tarly would be a ruthless brute

[Praetor Xyn]

I think the evidence, not necessarily in the text but in other works by GRRM and his own life, that Ned was in love with Ashara but Ashara ended whatever was between them and went to Brandon. There are tons of love triangles throughout GRRM's work. I think the text in and of itself with a bit of deductive reasoning is enough to support this though.

[Luddagain]

I think it is more than possible that Jon is the son of Ned and ashara, and indeed i would like it to be the case.

There are some important points however

Firstly Jon could NOT have been the child conceived at Harrenhall - He is  6-9 months too young

Secondly I think that Ashara was made pregnant by someone else and she turned to Ned (or another Stark - Benjen or Brandon or Rickard) for HELP. If her child lived I think he is or was Aegon, the son of Aerys and Ashara. Baby Aegon is the only child to be the right age - ie about 12-15 months old  when the war ended. There is of course one other possible "child" Allyria Dayne, who would be of the right marriageable age ie about 15 turning 16 when the book starts - perfect age for engagement to Beric Dondarrion.. The only other possible fathers are Rhaegar and Robert and Brandon.

However these two points do not rule out Ned being the father of a second child by Ashara.  We can assume Jon was born 3-4 months after Robb and about 13-16 months after.   This is plenty of time for a second child to be conceived and born (my family as lots of examples), so conceivably Jon could be ashara's son.  After all, we know nothing of the location of Ashara Dayne during the war. She could have been anywhere, and Ned could well have met her.

 

However the biggest flaw with that theory is  why would Ned need to HIDE the reality of Jon's parentage from Robert. Unless of course he is hiding it from Cat.

[Luddagain]

Hammer

Jon is a very good swordsman - he was always better than Robb and has practiced like crazy since going to the wall.  Mance admired his skill and he is probably the best swordsman of the time.

Other notable swordsmen are of course Jaime and the now dead Arthur Dayne.