Ashara Dayne as Jon Snow's mother

[Quellon]

I think, knowing what kind of a ladies man Brandon was, it would be only peculiar if he never fathered a bastard. However, since he already was betrothed, it is possible that he might have asked Ned to take responsibility for Jon. That is given that Jon is a bit older than Robb. He might as well be, nobody can tell for sure. Anyway, Jon could have been conceived in time and be born around the same time as Robb anyway. Or maybe Brandon didn't know of it and Ned was told of the child by Ashara. Rather than having her bear the shame of birthing a bastard, he took Jon with him North. And also because he was his brother's son, of course. Admit it, Jon being nursed together with Edric Dayne is peculiar, isn't it? Why just Edric Dayne? There is the link! The possible link to the theory that either Brandon or Ned and Ashara are Jon's true parents. Ned would be even more likely to do it since he wasn't betrothed at the time and so had no reason not to pursue his alledged infatuation with Ashara. But I doubt Brandon really had the time to develop feelings for Catelyn. Nor was he the type to give himself so easily to one woman.

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

I have posted this before but I will post it again

 

Consider the possibility that JON is not a Bastard but that Robb is. This would be reason enough for ned to never tell Catelyn of his parentage.

My idea works this way.

1. Ned falls hopelessly in love with Ashara - we sort of know this anyway.

Speak for yourself, I know no such thing! 

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

2. After being made pregnant by X - (Aerys or Rhaegar) Ashara has a baby boy which is born almost the same time as Elia's still born girl. The babies are switched.

You probably mean Ashara's stillborn baby...

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

3. Still being molested by Aerys, Ashara attempts to flee, turning to Ned or Benjen or Lyanna or Brandon for help. Ned and Lyanna and maybe Benjen all help Ashara flee Aerys. Rhaegar may even have assisted.

How? Why? Where are the clues? What made you think this is a likely scenario?

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

4. Brandon is in the Riverlands ready for his wedding. He and Catelyn are 'friendly"

And?

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

6. Hidden in the vale (three sisters) - Ned MARRIES Ashara in secret under a heart tree just before he heads up North to call his banners.

There are no hints or any type of textual evidence for this.

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

7. Ned is told/believed that Ashara is dead, dying like the 'fisherman"

Now I'm really confused.

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

8. Ned heads south stopping at Riverun.  He is pressured into marrying Catelyn - already pregnant by Brandon.  Unlike Robb  he places duty ahead of honour and marries Catelyn - believing in any case Ashara is dead.

Ah. At least now I understand why 'Cat and Brandon are "friendly"'.

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

9. Ashara did not die but delivered Jon in Sisterton as Davos was told. Eventually posing as Wylla she returns home.

Wylla, who was (probably) Jon's wet nurse, that Wylla? So Ashara hides in Starfall (!) under an assumed name and a few years later she is her own nephew's wet nurse? 

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

10. When he eventually gets to the ToJ Ned learns Ashara is alive and meets Jon, who as we might expect is about two months younger than Robb..

But how?

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

11. Ashara learns Ned has married a second time. She also learns her first born child has been murdered (Aegon). She loses a husband , brother and son in an instant. This is enough to drive many women to suicide - although I suspect she did not die.
(alternatively she learns that her son Aegon IS still alive and chooses to pretend to suicide, but really swim to safety and head for Essos, to care for him, leaving Jon in Ned'd care - she trusted Ned to care for Jon, but Aegon was alone.

Wait. Ashara is Aegon's mother? What. And so Ashara is now on her... 2nd assumed identity? 

 

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, Quellon said:

Who says this is about having proof? This is THEORISING. Speculating, not knowing. You Rhaegar & Lyanna lovers don't KNOW this for sure either, that Jon is their son.

It's not a theory if it isn't backed by anything other than wishful thinking, it's pure guesswork. 

And you, R+L=J naysayers are just so desperate to come up with an alternative that you ignore the text and the timeline just to come up with an something different. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Quellon said:

I'm not a naysayer, I just am exploring alternative theories and possiblities.

And that's cool, but alternative theories must fit with the text, the hints, and the timeline. Another thing that doesn't help is jumping to conclusions, just coz it's the only way to make something work. 

[Stubby]

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[Luddagain]

Kissed by fire

1. We do know that Ned was very keen on Ashara and that the Winterfell gossip was of Ned and Ashara. To say hopeless in love is perhaps a bit strong, but Ned is the personality to fall very hard for one woman, so Ashara is definitely possible first and chief love.  While ned respected and was faithful to Catelyn, I get no sense at all that he loved her passionately. he was often very formal with her.

2. We know that Ashara fell pregnant to SOMEONE at Harrenhall.  There are many candidates for Daddy, but my guess is Aerys. Rhaegar was if anything keen on Lyanna, I cannot think Robb would have chased someone Ned liked. Nor Brandon- he was wild but not mean. Ned does not hate him as he would if he has impregnated a girl he had clearly indicated to Brandon that he liked. If we eliminate the minor characters, we are left with Ser Barristan - his POV indicates a definite no, Aerys or Ned.  Had Ned slept with Ashara he would immediately have posted home for permission to marry Ashara, so no biggie - no need for a bastard daughter - still born or not. He would have married her.  This leaves Aerys.

3. I am not the first to post the idea that Elia and Ashara swapped babies.  They were always together as Ashara was one of Elia's ladies in Waiting.   It is actually probable that the two ladies would have conceived within 48 hrs of one another - biological fact that women living in close proximity - sharing beds and rooms etc, actually ovulate at the SAME time.

6. Actually there are I think a few hints about weddings and I have a rather vague theory that Arya may already have "married" Gendry (or was it Edrik Dayne, by walking three time round the heart tree together.  Remember that the wedding ceremony in the North is very simple. I can easily see any young couple with Northern roots swearing under a heart tree - Brandon and Cat, Ned and Ashara, Lyanna and Rhaegar etc.  Remember that the North is very like Scotland and the whole Gretna Green idea is that any young couple could elope and swear to the inn keeper or blacksmith etc and be legally married.

7 Remember the story Davos is told of Ned and the girl and fisherman.  We do have text evidence for a relationship between Ned and the fisherman's daughter. all I am suggesting is that that was really Ashara.

9. She may have travelled as Wylla - who knows what she did when she reached Dorne

10. Fairly obviously Arthur or Lyanna will have told Ned that Ashara is alive and in Dorne

11. Ashara may well be on her fourth of fifth identity - remember how many Arya has had.

 

But yes I think Ashara is the mother of baby Aegon  - the real one - not sure about the fake.  i think it possible but not certain she is Jon's mother.

 

Just to confuse you all further I think it is possible that she is Dany's mother - by Aerys.  It is conceivable that Ashara and Rhaella switched places - no one ever saw "Rhaella"  in KL, except hooded or with a battered and bruised face.

[maudisdottir]

3 hours ago, Quellon said:

I think, knowing what kind of a ladies man Brandon was, it would be only peculiar if he never fathered a bastard. However, since he already was betrothed, it is possible that he might have asked Ned to take responsibility for Jon. That is given that Jon is a bit older than Robb. He might as well be, nobody can tell for sure. Anyway, Jon could have been conceived in time and be born around the same time as Robb anyway. Or maybe Brandon didn't know of it and Ned was told of the child by Ashara. Rather than having her bear the shame of birthing a bastard, he took Jon with him North. And also because he was his brother's son, of course. Admit it, Jon being nursed together with Edric Dayne is peculiar, isn't it? Why just Edric Dayne? There is the link! The possible link to the theory that either Brandon or Ned and Ashara are Jon's true parents. Ned would be even more likely to do it since he wasn't betrothed at the time and so had no reason not to pursue his alledged infatuation with Ashara. But I doubt Brandon really had the time to develop feelings for Catelyn. Nor was he the type to give himself so easily to one woman.

Firstly, Jon and Edric were never nursed together, as Jon is a few years older than Edric.

As for Ned + Ashara - can anyone find evidence in the text that Ned was in love with Ashara?  All we have is Brandon asking her to dance with his shy brother.  How do we know Ned instigated it? IMO Brandon used Ned as his excuse to approach Ashara himself (as a betrothed man he couldn't very well ask her on his own behalf) and Ned was a smokescreen while A+B were fooling around.

And Barristan never says Ashara turned to a Stark for help.  He says she "looked to Stark" and thinks that if he had won the tourney instead of Rhaegar, and had crowned Ashara, she might not have "looked to Stark". Why would he think that if she was only looking for help? He doesn't need to win a tourney to become a girl's confidant.

 

[Orphalesion]

Really are we now all pretending

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

Firstly, Jon and Edric were never nursed together, as Jon is a few years older than Edric.

As for Ned + Ashara - can anyone find evidence in the text that Ned was in love with Ashara?  All we have is Brandon asking her to dance with his shy brother.  How do we know Ned instigated it? IMO Brandon used Ned as his excuse to approach Ashara himself (as a betrothed man he couldn't very well ask her on his own behalf) and Ned was a smokescreen while A+B were fooling around.

And Barristan never says Ashara turned to a Stark for help.  He says she "looked to Stark" and thinks that if he had won the tourney instead of Rhaegar, and had crowned Ashara, she might not have "looked to Stark". Why would he think that if she was only looking for help? He doesn't need to win a tourney to become a girl's confidant.

 

Exactly all we have of Ned loving Ashara is Barristan's speculation. He also thinks that Rhaegar run off with Lyanna out of love (which might not have been the case either, Barristan might not have known about Rhaegar's plans)

So the only thing we have evidence for is that Selmy might be a romantic.

[Luddagain]

Ned personally took Arthur's sword to Dorne and he hung about a while. he did not seem in too much of a hurry to return to get Catelyn.

The fierceness with which he shut the Ashara gossip up says a lot about his feelings.

Apparently Ashara was extremely beautiful, so probably half the young men were in love with her - particularly the shy ones. Ser Barristan was in love with her, and he seems fairly committed to his vows - only ashara seemed able to stir him up.

Indeed I have another wild theory - no evidence just an idea, that Ashara is alive and well living in Braavos as one of the courtesans - probably the one who never shows her face.

[Orphalesion]

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

Ned personally took Arthur's sword to Dorne and he hung about a while. he did not seem in too much of a hurry to return to get Catelyn.

Apparently Ashara was extremely beautiful, so probably half the young men were in love with her - particularly the shy ones. Ser Barristan was in love with her, and he seems fairly committed to his vows - only ashara seemed able to stir him up.

Indeed I have another wild theory - no evidence just an idea, that Ashara is alive and well living in Braavos as one of the courtesans - probably the one who never shows her face.

1) He had a newborn baby to think about, newborns tend to not take well to travels across a whole continent. Frankly it was a miracle that Jon survived. Also it was at the end of a war, which complicates travel further.

2) So she's beautiful, doesn't mean anything.

3) No. Not everybody in this story is actually alive and living under a secret name. This isn't the Bold and the Beautiful.

4) Even if Ned and Ashara had a fling. She isn't Jon's mother.

[Luddagain]

Ophalesion

We actually do not know who Jon's mother is - we all just speculate. Lyanna is a favourite and possibly most likely, but so predicable, I suspect GRRM will change it.

All we know for sure is that one of his parents is a Stark. We can also guess that the other one is hated by Robert OR is too embarrassing to tell Catelyn (and Jon).

Given his age we can eliminate Rickard and Brandon, leaving Ned, Lyanna and very unlikely Benjen (he would have been just 12).

As for the other person it depends on who the Stark is. if Lyanna is mother then the obvious father is Rhaegar, but Aerys is also possible, along with members of the KG.

If Ned is the Daddy then choices for mother are limited to a Targ (Rhaella!!!!!!) or to someone Cat would hate - that is the right age and in the story. The only possibles are Lady Dustin, Ashara, or maybe a Manderly. I can think of no other (I do NOT accept the loathesome incest ideas).

[Luddagain]

I should add that Mance Rayder is a possible daddy too.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

We actually do not know who Jon's mother is - we all just speculate.

That isn't true. There are a number of theories, but only one stands out. Others, like Ashara being Jon's mom start off with some tidbits that seem possible but on further scrutiny are shown to be impossible. Scrutiny like the first page of this thread. Really, this thread didn't need to go past it. 

[Luddagain]

Dorian

I really do not see that L+R=J stands out. 

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Kissed by fire

1. We do know that Ned was very keen on Ashara and that the Winterfell gossip was of Ned and Ashara. To say hopeless in love is perhaps a bit strong, but Ned is the personality to fall very hard for one woman, so Ashara is definitely possible first and chief love.  While ned respected and was faithful to Catelyn, I get no sense at all that he loved her passionately. he was often very formal with her.

But that's just it, we don't know that. What we have in the text is the following:

ASoS, Bran II

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 

Ashara danced with many men, including Ned but only after Brandon talked to her. I honestly don't see this as proof that Ned was in love with Ashara, nor that they had an affair. In fact, I find this is much more suggestive that Brandon and Ashara had a thing. 

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2. We know that Ashara fell pregnant to SOMEONE at Harrenhall.  There are many candidates for Daddy, but my guess is Aerys. Rhaegar was if anything keen on Lyanna, I cannot think Robb would have chased someone Ned liked. Nor Brandon- he was wild but not mean. Ned does not hate him as he would if he has impregnated a girl he had clearly indicated to Brandon that he liked. If we eliminate the minor characters, we are left with Ser Barristan - his POV indicates a definite no, Aerys or Ned.  Had Ned slept with Ashara he would immediately have posted home for permission to marry Ashara, so no biggie - no need for a bastard daughter - still born or not. He would have married her.  This leaves Aerys.

No, we don't. She might have, or she might have got pregnant afterwards. But let's say it was  during the tourney, for argument's sake. I also don't see any evidence or even a tiny hint suggesting that Aerys was the father. And as you say, Ned was unattached at that point, and it would have been "no biggie" for him to pursue a relationship with an equallly unattached woman. So, if she did get pregnant then, it's much more likely that it was Brandon who got her pregnant. Brandon who, at the time, was already betrothed to Catelyn.

And I'm not sure what Robb has to do with any of this...

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3. I am not the first to post the idea that Elia and Ashara swapped babies.  They were always together as Ashara was one of Elia's ladies in Waiting.   It is actually probable that the two ladies would have conceived within 48 hrs of one another - biological fact that women living in close proximity - sharing beds and rooms etc, actually ovulate at the SAME time.

Indeed, you're not the first and probably won't be the last. But the fact remains that there is no textual evidence for this. It's nothing more than wishful thinking.

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6. Actually there are I think a few hints about weddings and I have a rather vague theory that Arya may already have "married" Gendry (or was it Edrik Dayne, by walking three time round the heart tree together.  Remember that the wedding ceremony in the North is very simple. I can easily see any young couple with Northern roots swearing under a heart tree - Brandon and Cat, Ned and Ashara, Lyanna and Rhaegar etc.  Remember that the North is very like Scotland and the whole Gretna Green idea is that any young couple could elope and swear to the inn keeper or blacksmith etc and be legally married.

Well, I stand by what I said before: there are no hints or anything that suggest Ned and Ashara got married.

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7 Remember the story Davos is told of Ned and the girl and fisherman.  We do have text evidence for a relationship between Ned and the fisherman's daughter. all I am suggesting is that that was really Ashara.

We have a bit of gossip, that's all. And my impression is that, because people knew Ned went from the Vale to Winterfell through there and knew about the fisherman (who died) and his daughter who took him, and later on hear about a bastard son of Eddard's, they filled in the blanks (poorly, I might add) and thus Ned and the fisherman's daughter had a son.

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9. She may have travelled as Wylla - who knows what she did when she reached Dorne

She may have travelled as anyone, sure. But Wylla was also Edric's wet nurse, years after Jon was born. So, are you suggesting she kept that assumed identity for years and even acted as wet nurse to her own nephew?

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10. Fairly obviously Arthur or Lyanna will have told Ned that Ashara is alive and in Dorne

No, it's not obvious. 

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11. Ashara may well be on her fourth of fifth identity - remember how many Arya has had.

Don't see what the point would be, but sure, she could be on her umpteenth fake identity. 

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But yes I think Ashara is the mother of baby Aegon  - the real one - not sure about the fake.  i think it possible but not certain she is Jon's mother.

 

Just to confuse you all further I think it is possible that she is Dany's mother - by Aerys.  It is conceivable that Ashara and Rhaella switched places - no one ever saw "Rhaella"  in KL, except hooded or with a battered and bruised face.

So, Ashara is Jon's mum by Ned and Dany's mum by Aerys? And she still had a stillborn baby before Jon? So she had three pregnancies within a little over a year? Then she's not human. Maybe a cat or a dog. 

[Sansa Snow]

I think it's wrong and a little bit arrogant to say that Ashara being Jon's mother is not possible and without any proof since it's actually one of the options the writer is offering to us readers. It may not be as likely as R+L=J, but it's not impossible and right now RLJ is also just a theory.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

18 hours ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

So you agree with me? If he is that much worse than Mance, we can conclude that the difference between Jon and Jaime/Arthur is abysmal

18 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Well Jon  has been using real swords for a couple of years by Dance. Most characters and readers seem to think he is a good swordsman. Mance asks specifically asks for a two handed great sword and wipes the floor with him. Jon usually trains against several opponents. He literally stops to relish the moment with a greatsword. Neither the watch nor any Wildlings (that I am aware of) regularly use great swords.

Just go back and read the fight sometime, I did and a few things made more sense.

Do you really compare a man that has spent his whole life fighting with a man half his age who has next to none experience only training? For his experience Jon is a good swordsman not the best but one of the best. Jaime and Arthur were legends no one said that Jon is a legend for the moment.

That is only if you are first born of the heir .

Because we all know how Oberyn was Doran's heir. 

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Do you really compare a man that has spent his whole life fighting with a man half his age who has next to none experience only training? For his experience Jon is a good swordsman not the best but one of the best. Jaime and Arthur were legends no one said that Jon is a legend for the moment.

 

Exactly. Just look at the fights in the practice yard with Iron Emmett. You can see Jon is average, or a little above because he was castle trained, but Jon is bested a few times and it is only later in ADWD so we really see Jon improve on his own. It could change, for sure, but that has not happened yet. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

14 hours ago, Quellon said:

Jon being nursed together with Edric Dayne

Jon wasn't nursed together with Ned. He was years older hence it is impossibe.

14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's not a theory if it isn't backed by anything other than wishful thinking, it's pure guesswork. 

Also known as fan fiction.

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, Ashara is Jon's mum by Ned and Dany's mum by Aerys? And she still had a stillborn baby before Jon? So she had three pregnancies within a little over a year? Then she's not human. Maybe a cat or a dog. 

Ashara has given birth to every baby born in Westeros between 281 and 284. All of them and each of them had a different father.

In 281: Olyvar  Frey, Petyr Frey and Quentyn Martell

In 282: Alyx Frey, Amerei Frey, Lancel Lannister, Loras Tyrell and the Pisswater prince.

In 283: Bella,  Desmera Redwyne,  Jeyne Westerling,  Jon Snow,  Lucos Chyttering,  Margaery Tyrell,  Meera Reed, Robb Stark,  Robert Frey and Samwell Tarly.

In 284:  Daenerys Targaryen, Duram Bar Emmon,  Gendry and Malwyn Frey.

 

It is known 

5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Exactly. Just look at the fights in the practice yard with Iron Emmett. You can see Jon is average, or a little above because he was castle trained, but Jon is bested a few times and it is only later in ADWD so we really see Jon improve on his own. It could change, for sure, but that has not happened yet. 

Also lets not forget who he fights against. Mance was not a man next door. He was fighting his whole life.

[Nowy Tends]

29 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

In 283: Bella,  Desmera Redwyne,  Jeyne Westerling,  Jon Snow,  Lucos Chyttering,  Margaery Tyrell,  Meera Reed, Robb Stark,  Robert Frey and Samwell Tarly.

In 284:  Daenerys Targaryen, Duram Bar Emmon,  Gendry and Malwyn Frey.

You forgot Hoster Blackwood