Ashara Dayne as Jon Snow's mother

[Lady Blizzardborn]

14 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

There's much more to that entire passage, and Barristan actually says that if he had told her he loved her it might have stopped all the bad shit from going down afterwards.  Why would he say that if he was only looking to be her confidant?

Then goes on to say Rhaegar chose Lyanna instead of his own wife, compares Elia to Ashara, and laments the fact that he never revealed his true feelings to her, which might have avoided a lot of pain (and war) down the track.

IMO these thoughts don't jibe with someone who is regretting a lost opportunity to be a girl's confidant.

Ashara to Barristan:  "I'm having [men/baby/undisclosed other] problems."

Barristan to Ashara:  "This is the perfect opportunity to tell you I'm in love with you."

Ashara to Barristan:  "That solves everything! Let's go sit over here and talk about how you can help me with my [men/baby/undisclosed other] problems.  Now I won't have to go running to the Starks, which was my only other option for some unknown reason."

You seem to be completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. So maybe I haven't been communicating clearly. What I'm saying is that whatever Barristan thinks she got from "Stark" is what he thinks she could have gotten from him instead...and she could not have gotten sex from him due to his KG vows. 

Try the scene this way:

Barristan: I love you.

Ashara: You love me?

Barristan: Yes. Of course I can't break my vows, but if you ever need anything...

Ashara: Now that you mention it...

[The Twinslayer]

8 hours ago, Amris said:

Quellon: While I like the thread and don't have any basic problem with contemplating whether Ashara might be Jon's mother I don't see how to really to make this work.

Aside from the question of 'why keep Jon's mother a secret' which has been rightly asked there is the timeline problem. The times just don't add up.

Because if Jon was born when everyone thinks he was born (in 283 AC near the end of the war) then we would have to bring Ned and Ashara together for the necessary biological interaction 9 months earlier. And I don't see how.

We know that the war lasted 'close to a year'. So for Jon to have been born near its end his parents would have had to be together after the war started.

Where was Ned when the war started?

That is clearly established. We know that Ned was in the Vale of Arryn when the Rebellion broke out. He was ward of Jon Arryn and King Aerys II send a message to Jon Arryn in the Vale to demand Ned's head. We also know that Jon Arryn instead rose in rebellion while Ned went from the Vale via the three sisters and a fishing boat (the story about the fishing woman) to Winterfell to call his banners.
 

Where was Ashara when the war started?

That admittedly is less clear. But by default we would expect her in Starfall since she is a Dayne. (And that's exactly where she seems to have been at the end of the war, when Ned brought Dawn to Starfall and Ashara reportedly jumped off the Palestone Sword tower.) As far as I know there is no evidence for Ashara having been anywhere else at the beginning of the war.

So there are only 2 ways to make the Ned+Ashara=Jon idea work: either Jon was not born when we think he was born - or Ashara was not at Starfall at the beginning of the war.

But we don't have evidence for either of these solutions:

If Jon was born at a different time then I don't know how to reconcile that with Catelyn getting to Winterfell and finding Ned and baby-Jon. I mean: Catelyn would have noticed if Jon was a toddler and not a newborn! Had he been sired at the tourney of Harrenhal for instance then he would have to be over a year older than assumed. (born in the first months of 282 since the tourney was 281 and not born in 283). That is too much age difference to go unnoticed in a supposedly newborn - they grow fast. (And of course he can't have been younger either because then Ned would have had to have waited in Starfall for close to nine months for Jon's birth. There is no report of that.)

EDIT: Also there is the infamous SSM that Jon is closer to 8-9 months older than Dany. Dany's birth date is clearly established as 8 1/2 months or so after the sack of KL so we know Jon's birth around the time Ned gets south to Dorne is pretty confirmed. Unless we want to postulate that Dany's birth date is wrong also. But the more of these facts we try to explain away the less likely the theory becomes.

The other idea - for Ashara to not have been in Starfall but near Ned at the start of the war - does not work well either: 

Why would Ashara be in the Vale? That makes not sense.

There is one slight possibilitiy: Both Ned and Ashara could have been in the Riverlands for the wedding feast of Brandon and Catelyn and met there. But we have no text evidence that that was the case. On top of that we would have to assume Aerys did not know this when he sent his message to Jon Arryn demanding Ned's head. And what nearly rules it out completely is that Ned is confirmed to have travelled to the North from the Vale via the fisherboat and the Three Sisters. Had he been in the Riverlands he would have travelled north along the King's Road.

 

The question of why keep Jon's mother secret has an answer if Ashara is his mother:  what if Ned "married" Ashara before a tree, in an Old-Gods ceremony?  There is some support for this theory.  We know Ned took two vows before the Seven.  We see him take one in the moments before he is killed by Ilyn Payne.  He confesses his treason before "the Seven."  Most people believe he did that, rather than confess before the Old Gods, because he was lying.  The other vow he took before the Seven was  his wedding vows to Catelyn.  We know this because Catelyn remembers marrying him in a Sept.  The theory goes that if Ned could lie one time before the Seven, he could do it twice.  And he may have felt he had to do it.  His marriage to Ashara was done without permission from Lord Rickard (who was still alive when it happened) and the needs of the rebellion plus the need for House Stark to keep its promise to House Tully may have compelled him to marry Catelyn.  I could even see a scenario where Ned and Ashara agreed to marry some time in the future, they slept together, and Ned insisted on a tree ceremony the next day, which he took seriously but which she did not.

Under this theory, the reason Ned never told Catelyn about Jon's mother is that Jon may be his legitimate son and Robb may not.  That would cause all kinds of problems.  Especially if Ashara didn't consider it a real marriage and planned to have a ceremony in a sept later on. 

This would go a long way to explaining other mysteries from AGOT.  Why does Ned say he has been living a lie for 14 years?  (Because he thinks Jon is trueborn while Robb is not).  Why does he say there was no honor in the conquest?  (Because he bought the Tully swords with a lie).  Why does he say everything was meant for Brandon -- Catelyn, Winterfell, etc.?  (Because he wanted a quiet life with his true love, Ashara). 

As for the timing of Jon's conception, that is very easy.  I don't happen to believe the SSM that says Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany (because GRRM made that statement before he published ASOS, and a number of things he said in that SSM are contradicted by later books).  But that does not matter.  All that is required is that whenever Jon was born, Ned and Ashara were together 6-10 months previously (standard gestation being 9 months and allowing for a premature or a late birth). 

We know that Ned went from the Vale, to Winterfell, to Stony Sept, and then to Riverrun during the period after the war began and before Robb was conceived.  We also know that, after his wedding to Catelyn, he spent most of the next 12 months "warring in the south." 

We don't know where Ashara was with any precision except to say that she was at Harrenhal during the year of the false spring and in Starfall at the end of the Rebellion when Ned came down to return Dawn.  So she could have been literally anywhere -- just like Catelyn in AGOT (Winterfell, White Harbor, King's Landing, Vale, Moat Cailin, Twins, Riverrun all in one book) or in ACOK (wanders from Riverrun to Bitterbridge and back, right through the middle of the War of Five Kings, even fleeing Renly's camp suspected of Renly's murder, all in one book).

But it is more likely she just did what Lyanna did:  stayed at Harrenhal after the tournament and got trapped by the return of winter.  So she would have been at Harrenhal when Spring returned and the Rebellion started, perhaps planning to attend Brandon's wedding at Riverrun.  If she stayed there a little while longer, she would still have been there when Ned Stark passed by on his way to or from his own wedding to Catelyn.  And, if she was "married" or "promised" to Ned, she would have an incentive to stick around rather than returning home. 

And remember, Barristan says where, not when, she was dishonored.  It says she was dishonored "at Harrenhal."  It does not say she was dishonored during the tournament in the year of the false spring.    

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

This is the exact quote: " But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well." 

Barristan thinks she might have grieved for the man who dishonored her. Might and think are the key words. He doesn't know. This is him trying to reason out what might have happened many years after the fact. It's not necessarily an accurate depiction of what occurred. Barristan wasn't there. All he knows is what he has heard or imagined.

Barristan would not violate his KG vows by getting involved with Ashara. The reason why his crowning her QoLaB would potentially result in her turning to him for help is because that would make her aware that he holds her in high regard. There was no chance of a relationship in his mind, but she might have thought she could seek him out for assistance. If he thinks she would have come to him instead of "Stark" he has to be thinking she would come to him for help because she would not be coming to him for a roll in the hay.

This does not imply that the person she "looked to" was the same as the man who dishonored her. Even if she was in love with said dishonorer that doesn't mean that he was in love with her. She might have been hoping someone powerful could convince the guy to marry her, or convince her family to consent to the match.

 

That's what the modern mind thinks of, but in the medieval world it did not take going all the way to ruin a girl's reputation. Besides which almost always is not always. Until GRRM clarifies things, we're all just guessing.

That's because you think she's dead.

I am not so sure Barristan would have kept his vows.  Let's break down the quote:

"He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy.  No good could have come from telling her his feelings."  The reason no good could come of it is that he thinks he would have broken his vow of celibacy.

Then he says:  "No good came from silence either."  The reason no good came from silence is that she died of grief for her child and the man who dishonored her.  This implies that Barristan thinks that some good would have come from speaking after all.  Which further implies that him breaking his vow of celibacy with Ashara would have been better than what actually happened. 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, The Twinslayer said:

<snip

I am not so sure Barristan would have kept his vows.  Let's break down the quote:

"He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy.  No good could have come from telling her his feelings."  The reason no good could come of it is that he thinks he would have broken his vow of celibacy.

Then he says:  "No good came from silence either."  The reason no good came from silence is that she died of grief for her child and the man who dishonored her.  This implies that Barristan thinks that some good would have come from speaking after all.  Which further implies that him breaking his vow of celibacy with Ashara would have been better than what actually happened. 

 

Like most things in the series it depends upon interpretation. One interpretation is that he would have ended up breaking his vows. Another interpretation is that it could have caused pain or embarrassment if she felt awkward about him loving her, or worse loved him back.

I'm sure he would have been tempted to break his vows if she offered, but I'm not sure that he would have done it. If Barristan could keep his vows to protect crazy Aerys even when he was doing things no king should ever do--especially what he did to his own wife--he had to have some serious will power.

[maudisdottir]

Barristan is looking at this through the lens of hindsight.  He thinks, all these years later, that breaking his own vow of celibacy (and dishonouring himself) would have been a better alternative than what actually happened. It's quite possible that at the time of the tourney he wouldn't have seriously considered it, but 15+ years later the heartbreak over his lost love causes him to wish he'd done things differently.

eta or what Twinslayer said.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

22 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's because you think she's dead.

Not really. It's because I believe that she is a red herring.

[Chris Mormont]

On 2/12/2017 at 5:18 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Jaime Lannister greeted each one courteously, but after the last of them was gone, he turned on his little brother and said, "Tyrion, have you taken leave of your bloody wits? The red priestess, aye, she may be of use, but the others... old men, cripples, and children, and soft, soft, soft. I might have had the Mountain and the Hound, Jon Snow, Brienne, Barristan Selmy... I might have had a dragon or three."

Where was this from?  I don't recall this exchange at all, and I cannot think of a time where Jamie would have seen Jon Snow fight.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not really. It's because I believe that she is a red herring.

She is that. But you also think she's dead. Would that make her a dead herring?

[kissdbyfire]

On 12/02/2017 at 8:55 AM, Amris said:

Thank you for the thread!

With RLJ all but confirmed it is risky to open this can of worms again and you are catching flak for it of course, which I am sorry for.

But the topic of Jon's ancestry keeps being interesting exactly because of the piece that has not been able to fit into a great unified theory yet: What is Ashara's role? RLJ is great and probably true - but it leaves the Ashara mystery unsolved. And that is like the hole left by a missing tooth: I can't help exploring it. I suspect you have a similar experience.

Unfortunately what other posters in this thread have said seems true enough: it does not make much sense for Ned and Ashara being Jon's parents. Why hide his identity then? He would not be in danger. And all the RLJ clues spattered throughout the series would be wasted.

I have a second puzzle piece that I can't help turning back and forth and am unsatisfied with: Barristan's inner monologue describing how much Dany resembles Ashara.

I hate it when there are two possibly related pieces that don't seem to make any sense. They lead to theories that run against the supposed timelines and against widely accepted conventional wisdom. I have not been able to come up with something that clicks into place with a satisfying 'aha' effect.

But the Ashara piece at least has to fit somehow.

 

 

Ashara had a baby with Brandon. The baby is still alive, Ashara I'm not so sure. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ashara had a baby with Brandon. The baby is still alive, Ashara I'm not so sure. 

Don't know about the first part but I do agree that Ashara did not commit suicide.