Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Watching this, but I've seen similar theories all over the place - and it gets me wonderin': If Mance is Arthur Dayne, and Qhorin is Oswell Whent... Or if Mance is Rhaegar, and Qhorin is Gerold Hightower... Or if Mance is Batman, and Qhorin is Robin... Well, why does Qhorin get himself killed? It seems like Jon has to kill Qhorin to get accepted by the wildlings. But if Qhorin's already in cahoots with the King of the Wildlings, then why is that necessary at all? Couldn't they both have just gone over, saying "Mance will want to talk to us"? If the realm truly is at stake, why does Qhorin - secretly one of the few people fighting the good fight - throw himself away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetor Xyn Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Interesting. I doubt aby of those characters are any of those who supposedly died at the Tower of Joy, but it's interesting to think one or more of those men might be alive. We only have Ned's word for it, though there's no reason for him to lie in his own thoughts. I just always wondered why a supremely honorable man like Ned wouldn't have the bodies brought home to their families afterward. It's understandable they couldn't carry them away, but once they got home he could have sent men to retrieve the seven bodies from the cairns to be buried properly by their families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegon VII Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 54 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: Watching this, but I've seen similar theories all over the place - and it gets me wonderin': If Mance is Arthur Dayne, and Qhorin is Oswell Whent... Or if Mance is Rhaegar, and Qhorin is Gerold Hightower... Or if Mance is Batman, and Qhorin is Robin... Well, why does Qhorin get himself killed? It seems like Jon has to kill Qhorin to get accepted by the wildlings. But if Qhorin's already in cahoots with the King of the Wildlings, then why is that necessary at all? Couldn't they both have just gone over, saying "Mance will want to talk to us"? If the realm truly is at stake, why does Qhorin - secretly one of the few people fighting the good fight - throw himself away? Ha! I ended up thinking about this exact thing last night after reading the other thread about changing your mind. Personally I do think mr=rt is a very real possibility. And if true, qhorin being Dayne does fit pretty well, especially considering Jamie's pissing comment. Last night I started thinking that maybe qhorin knew it was necessary. That either he would die no matter what, or that it was necessary for Jon to be accepted. But both of those reasons aren't really the case. Jon and qhorin were already being taken to Mance alive ( if I remember correctly, I may be getting mixed up with the show) and once they got to Mance he could easily say he was keeping qhorin as a hostage. Then I started to think that if grrm followed through with this he would have this half hand character who's already served his purpose in the plot just sitting around as a hostage. I think in the end, if qhorin is the half hand, the reason he had to die comes more from a literary reason. That his character had served his purpose and was not needed anymore. Alternatively, maybe he knew there was a risk of being tortured before ever getting to Mance and his decision was calculated take a clean death and ensure Jon has a bit more credibility going over to the wildlings vs r being a captor of people that might torture and kill him. I doubt this carries much water though as Arthur daube probably would be afraid of a little torture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Aegon VII said: Jon and qhorin were already being taken to Mance alive ( if I remember correctly, I may be getting mixed up with the show) and once they got to Mance he could easily say he was keeping qhorin as a hostage. Then I started to think that if grrm followed through with this he would have this half hand character who's already served his purpose in the plot just sitting around as a hostage. I think in the end, if qhorin is the half hand, the reason he had to die comes more from a literary reason. That his character had served his purpose and was not needed anymore. You are getting mixed up with the show I'm afraid M Tootles has a theory that Qhorin is Hightower and Jon killing "the White Bull" is a bit of Mithraic symbolism, which might be your literary reason. As for torture, maybe - I suppose it's the case that the wildlings aren't very disciplined and might not follow orders. "Take me to Mance, Mance will want to talk to me" - would they care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegon VII Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 26 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: You are getting mixed up with the show I'm afraid Damnit! Well then I have to go back to my initial reasoning. Either Qhorin thought it was going to happen no matter what or he thought it was worth it to help Jon. Quote M Tootles has a theory that Qhorin is Hightower and Jon killing "the White Bull" is a bit of Mithraic symbolism, which might be your literary reason. I don't really see any evidence towards him being a Hightower though. Dayne has jaimes comment, are there any nods like that supporting Hightower? Quote As for torture, maybe - I suppose it's the case that the wildlings aren't very disciplined and might not follow orders. "Take me to Mance, Mance will want to talk to me" - would they care? Hostages usually don't get to demand orders. I'm sure a lot of captives said anything to stay alive, such as "your boss will want to speak with me". I'm sure the wildlings have heard that more than once already. No guarantee it would work and if it didn't he would no longer have the opportunity to help Jon. Plus the woman wildlings kind of forces him to, not really either Jon or qhorins decision. Yeah qhorin prepared him for it, but I don't think he forced it to happen that way, he just had a good idea it might. I think we can look to Jaime getting his arm cut off as an answer to this. Even when the men know they need to deliver a hostage there's still room for torture like acts. And in this situation, qhorins killed a ton of his captors people, he would definitely have to assume he would be at risk. Also so as a side note, I had forgotten how qhorins blood makes a ruby necklace. easily could be a hint towards qhorin not being qhorin, glamoured or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: Well, why does Qhorin get himself killed? Halfhand knew that they were dead men. The wildlings are chasing them. The chapter when read in context as it was written speaks for itself. Halfhand tells Stonesnake: Quote A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII There was no question of riding double. Stonesnake offered to lay in wait for the pursuit and surprise them when they came. Perhaps he could take a few of them with him down to hell. Qhorin refused. "If any man in the Night's Watch can make it through the Frostfangs alone and afoot, it is you, brother. You can go over mountains that a horse must go around. Make for the Fist. Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again." He has no chance, Jon thought when he watched Stonesnake vanish over a snow-covered ridge, a tiny black bug crawling across a rippling expanse of white. Quote A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII The Halfhand was not the most companionable of men. Qhorin's long grey braid swung slowly with the motion of his horse. Often they would ride for hours without a word spoken, the only sounds the soft scrape of horseshoes on stone and the keening of the wind, which blew endlessly through the heights. When he slept, he did not dream; not of wolves, nor his brothers, nor anything. Even dreams cannot live up here, he told himself. Quote "Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?" asked Qhorin Halfhand across the flickering fire. "My sword is Valyrian steel. The Old Bear gave it to me." “Do you remember the words of your vow?” "We may escape them yet,” the ranger said. "Or not." I’m not afraid to die. It was only half a lie. It may not be as easy as that Jon Snow.He did not understand. "What do you mean?" "If we are taken, you must yield." "Yield?" He blinked in disbelief. The wildlings did not make captives of the men they called the crows. They killed them, except for . . . "They only spare oathbreakers. Those who join them, like Mance Rayder." The wildlings are not gonna believe Halfhand as being an oathbreaker. A young recruit however might convince them he was an oathbreaker especially if that young recruit killed a respected member of the NW. Half hand was taking a dead man's risk. The wildlings know about wargs and skinchangers. Jon has Ghost. He kills Halfhand with Ghost’s help and of course Yigrette happened to be there with the group that overtook them. There is no need to try to turn Mance, or Halfhand into a secret persona of a KG that died at the ToJ as the video is suggesting. Plain and simple, Halfhand knew he was gonna die and thought that if Jon did the deed with a nice sharp sword the wildings would take him in giving the off chance that Jon could slip free and warn the NW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindsayLohan Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Because the theory is just ridiculous, born of boredom and people having too much time between books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 1 minute ago, LindsayLohan said: Because the theory is just ridiculous, born of boredom and people having too much time between books. agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingMance Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 8 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said: Because the theory is just ridiculous, born of boredom and people having too much time between books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: Watching this, but I've seen similar theories all over the place - and it gets me wonderin': If Mance is Arthur Dayne, and Qhorin is Oswell Whent... Or if Mance is Rhaegar, and Qhorin is Gerold Hightower... Or if Mance is Batman, and Qhorin is Robin... Well, why does Qhorin get himself killed? It seems like Jon has to kill Qhorin to get accepted by the wildlings. But if Qhorin's already in cahoots with the King of the Wildlings, then why is that necessary at all? Couldn't they both have just gone over, saying "Mance will want to talk to us"? If the realm truly is at stake, why does Qhorin - secretly one of the few people fighting the good fight - throw himself away? Well yes Mance is in on it but Rattleshirt and the rest certainly aren't they would have killed Jon and Qhorin onnthe spot normally. Jon turning traitor and killing him is the only way he can attempt to get Jon to Mance. Wildlings usually kill or torture rangers not take them to Mance for a chat. Unless they turncloak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 13 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said: Because the theory is just ridiculous, born of boredom and people having too much time between books. Nah Mance is Rhaegar is ridiculous. Mance as Arthur has some merit. Granted if we had the books we all would have better things to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindsayLohan Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 7 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said: Nah Mance is Rhaegar is ridiculous. Mance as Arthur has some merit. Granted if we had the books we all would have better things to do. Mance was raised by the NW. The theory is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingMance Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 I think what The George wants us to take from the Mance/Rhaegar connection is doing what is "right" even when a large group of people think it's a terrible idea. The similarities between the 2 (colors,harp,being a leader of men, severing ties with one's family/order) are very real and apparent. Jon ends up doing the "right" thing by letting the wildlings pass, after seeing first hand who the true enemy is. Ditto for Mance, and it's heavily implied Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna and became a warrior because of the prophesy suggesting the same thing. Mance works as a father figure or role model to Jon in a way, and that's important because of Mance's similarities to Rhaegar, not because he's actually his dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 7 hours ago, Aegon VII said: I don't really see any evidence towards him being a Hightower though. Dayne has jaimes comment, are there any nods like that supporting Hightower? Also so as a side note, I had forgotten how qhorins blood makes a ruby necklace. easily could be a hint towards qhorin not being qhorin, glamoured or not. Google M Tootles, he has a whole thing on it. includin heaps on the ruby blood thing you noticed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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