Did Mance really go to Winterfell?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

I've been watching Order of the Green Hand videos, where they posit that Mance's story to Jon about how he went to Winterfell doesn't add up. I think they make an error in their timeline which leads them down the wrong path, but it did get me thinking. Here's the scene, for reference, and in spoiler tags so it doesn't take up the whole page:

Spoiler

"...I promised you a tale before, of how I knew you. Have you puzzled it out yet?"
Jon shook his head. "Did Rattleshirt send word ahead?"
"By wing? We have no trained ravens. No, I knew your face. I've seen it before. Twice."
It made no sense at first, but as Jon turned it over in his mind, dawn broke. "When you were a brother of the Watch . . ."
"Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath."
"I remember," said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes . . . "You swore not to tell."
"And kept my vow. That one, at least."
"We dumped the snow on Fat Tom. He was Father's slowest guardsman." Tom had chased them around the yard afterward, until all three were red as autumn apples. "But you said you saw me twice. When was the other time?"
"When King Robert came to Winterfell to make your father Hand," the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly.
Jon's eyes widened in disbelief. "That can't be so."
"It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode."
"But," Jon objected, "the Wall . . ."
"The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance." He laughed. "I know every bawdy song that's ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father's meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard's children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."
"Bael the Bard," said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he'd almost killed her.
"Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?"
"No," said Jon. "If you had been discovered . . . taken . . ."
"Your father would have had my head off." The king gave a shrug. "Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. So tell me truly, Jon Snow. Are you a craven who turned your cloak from fear, or is there another reason that brings you to my tent?"

That right there at the end we might call "changing the subject".

Now if it were me in Jon's shoes, I'd like to think I'd have the wherewithal to ask Mance a few questions about the feast and see if he really attended. But Jon Snow famously knows nothing (despite being marked as unusually perspicacious in his very first chapter, I might add), and so when Mance changes the subject he never returns to it.

But why would Mance want Jon to think he'd been to Winterfell recently? I posit that Mance didn't recognise Jon at all, he recognised Ghost, and connected the dots: young-ish black brother, kind of looks like Benjen Stark, accompanied by a white direwolf: that's gotta be Jon Snow. Now, Mance definitely has seen Jon once before, when he was a child. But how does he know he's in the Night's Watch, and how does he know about the wolf? Theory: Mance has a source of information in the Night's Watch.

Giant hole in the theory #1: if Mance wanted to keep this informant a secret, then why didn't he just keep it a secret that he recognised Jon?

Somewhat plausible answer: because he'd rather blow Jon's mind with a crazy story, thus making him look cool - which is important for cementing his kingliness in Jon's mind - and also, it's a test, to see if Jon twigs it. Or something.

Anyway, the point of this thread is:

1. Is there anything in Mance's story that could only have come from first-hand knowledge?

2. How would gossip like that make it from the Wall to Mance?

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

If I may take the liberty of answering my own question, to me the only possible hiccup is Orland of Oldtown. Is he such a famous singer that people gossiping at Castle Black about the Winterfell feast would mention him?

All we know is that he's one of the singers at Joffrey's wedding, so he's obviously at the top of his field. But does that extend to name recognition at the Wall?

And if you're wondering how the gossip reaches the Wall at all: Tyrion. (Also Benjen, Jon, Yoren, and Tyrion's Lannister guard.)

Finally, bear in mind that our POV at the feast is none other than Jon, in his first POV chapter, and he's drunk. So GRRM has room to manouevre here in both directions: either Jon is drunk enough to not notice the details that we need to solve the mystery, or he's too drunk to remember whether Mance is telling the truth or not.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

I don't know why you'd think that Mance would be lying about it, he definitely visited WF years ago and saw Jon and Robb dump snow on Fat Tom, and he says he takes measure of Robert, Kingslayer, and the Imp on his most recent trip for the feast. And we know for a fact that he went to WF again, posing as a musician, to rescue fArya with his spearwives. There is no reason to doubt that he did go to WF when Robert was there and I don't think he has a reason to lie about it.

 

I think the real question is why he keeps going to WF and what he wants with their Crypts?

[Praetor Xyn]

8 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

I don't know why you'd think that Mance would be lying about it, he definitely visited WF years ago and saw Jon and Robb dump snow on Fat Tom, and he says he takes measure of Robert, Kingslayer, and the Imp on his most recent trip for the feast. And we know for a fact that he went to WF again, posing as a musician, to rescue fArya with his spearwives. There is no reason to doubt that he did go to WF when Robert was there and I don't think he has a reason to lie about it.

This is my assessment as well. I'm watching the Order of the Green Hand videos today, probably almost to the one you're talking about but not yet.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

2 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

This is my assessment as well. I'm watching the Order of the Green Hand videos today, probably almost to the one you're talking about but not yet.

I've seen some of them vids, but my comment above was right off the top of my head about why I never questioned Mance going to WF when he's said he has.

[Praetor Xyn]

1 minute ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

I've seen some of them vids, but my comment above was right off the top of my head about why I never questioned Mance going to WF when he's said he has.

I know. That statement of mine was directed at the TC.

[The Fattest Leech]

I am supposed to be working, so I don't have a ton of time to line up all of the dates, but we are told that singers have and continue to visit Winterfell. This is at least a clue from another POV that it could be possible that Mance visited at some time. And we know Mance picked up the wise Dalla on his way back from Winterfell in the past.

A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

Once, when she was just a little girl, a wandering singer had stayed with them at Winterfell for half a year. An old man he was, with white hair and windburnt cheeks, but he sang of knights and quests and ladies fair, and Sansa had cried bitter tears when he left them, and begged her father not to let him go. "The man has played us every song he knows thrice over," Lord Eddard told her gently. "I cannot keep him here against his will. You need not weep, though. I promise you, other singers will come."

They hadn't, though, not for a year or more. Sansa had prayed to the Seven in their sept and old gods of the heart tree, asking them to bring the old man back, or better still to send another singer, young and handsome. But the gods never answered, and the halls of Winterfell stayed silent.

But that was when she was a little girl, and foolish. She was a maiden now, three-and-ten and flowered. All her nights were full of song, and by day she prayed for silence.

 

I see no reason for Mance to lie to Jon in this situation. That is a long running lie he would have to keep up with, even through all of the "exposure" in the Mancelshirt/fArya plot.

I really do think that LC Mormont and Qhorin know, or suspect, something 'special' about our Jonny Snowflake boy. Qhorin and LC Mormont have a few bandy words about Jon going ranging with Qhorin, and then Mormont seems to begrudgingly agree.

Sorry, I have not watched any of these particular videos, but George has sorta warned fans against developing overwrought plots because they tend to be too complicated and not correct.

 

I will check the videos out tomorrow evening when I have a chance.

[The Fattest Leech]

Oh, and no doubt Ghost adds to Jon Starkness, just I as assume Shaggydog will do for Rickon later.

[Clegane'sPup]

Yes, Mance went to WF, at least twice and there is also a set up for him to return to WF.

At the time Mance tells Jon the story Jon is only a guest because Mance holds with guest right. Jon is actually a prisoner.

"Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least.

Mance didn’t change the subject; Are you a craven who turned your cloak from fear, or is there another reason that brings you to my tent?"  Mance begins to question Jon about his motives. Jon really isn’t at liberty to start asking a bunch of questions. He is a prisoner. The implied threat is Mance is not going to kill Jon this night.

How Mance gained the knowledge that King Robert was coming to WF is unclear. Eddard sent word to the NW. The NW sent Benjen to WF. My speculation is that after CB received word of Robert’s upcoming visit they in turn sent word to ST and EW and to use Hotah’s words:  "Someone told." Hotah shrugged. "Someone always tells."

Mance is very specific when he tells Jon why he went to WF.

When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode."

Mance also brings up Bael the Bard, which is a whole different topic, while talking with Jon. Later in the story The Mance returns to WF as Abel.

You asked:  But why would Mance want Jon to think he'd been to Winterfell recently?

Me reply:  Mance told that he had been at WF during King Robert’s feast. My understanding of the word recently means a week or so.

You:   I posit that Mance didn't recognise Jon at all, he recognised Ghost, and connected the dots: young-ish black brother, kind of looks like Benjen Stark, accompanied by a white direwolf: that's gotta be Jon Snow.

Me:   I agree Jon having Ghost with him helped, but I do think Mance recognized Jon, as it has been mentioned on numerous occasions “Jon has the look of Stark.” I would posit that Mance/Abel in DwD also has surmised that Jeyne is not Arya Stark.

You:   Now, Mance definitely has seen Jon once before, when he was a child. But how does he know he's in the Night's Watch, and how does he know about the wolf? Theory: Mance has a source of information in the Night's Watch.

Me:   Mance saw Jon as child, and again as a young teenager. At the King’s feast Mance saw Eddard, Benjen and the Stark children & their wolves. As to a source in the NW, men gossip and share tales.

Quote

 

Giant hole in the theory #1: if Mance wanted to keep this informant a secret, then why didn't he just keep it a secret that he recognised Jon?

Somewhat plausible answer: because he'd rather blow Jon's mind with a crazy story, thus making him look cool - which is important for cementing his kingliness in Jon's mind - and also, it's a test, to see if Jon twigs it. Or something.

Anyway, the point of this thread is:

1. Is there anything in Mance's story that could only have come from first-hand knowledge?

2. How would gossip like that make it from the Wall to Mance?

 

I got nothing.

[Aegon VII]

17 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I've been watching Order of the Green Hand videos, where they posit that Mance's story to Jon about how he went to Winterfell doesn't add up. I think they make an error in their timeline which leads them down the wrong path, but it did get me thinking. Here's the scene, for reference, and in spoiler tags so it doesn't take up the whole page:

  Hide contents

"...I promised you a tale before, of how I knew you. Have you puzzled it out yet?"
Jon shook his head. "Did Rattleshirt send word ahead?"
"By wing? We have no trained ravens. No, I knew your face. I've seen it before. Twice."
It made no sense at first, but as Jon turned it over in his mind, dawn broke. "When you were a brother of the Watch . . ."
"Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath."
"I remember," said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes . . . "You swore not to tell."
"And kept my vow. That one, at least."
"We dumped the snow on Fat Tom. He was Father's slowest guardsman." Tom had chased them around the yard afterward, until all three were red as autumn apples. "But you said you saw me twice. When was the other time?"
"When King Robert came to Winterfell to make your father Hand," the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly.
Jon's eyes widened in disbelief. "That can't be so."
"It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode."
"But," Jon objected, "the Wall . . ."
"The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance." He laughed. "I know every bawdy song that's ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father's meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard's children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."
"Bael the Bard," said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he'd almost killed her.
"Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?"
"No," said Jon. "If you had been discovered . . . taken . . ."
"Your father would have had my head off." The king gave a shrug. "Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. So tell me truly, Jon Snow. Are you a craven who turned your cloak from fear, or is there another reason that brings you to my tent?"

That right there at the end we might call "changing the subject".

Now if it were me in Jon's shoes, I'd like to think I'd have the wherewithal to ask Mance a few questions about the feast and see if he really attended. But Jon Snow famously knows nothing (despite being marked as unusually perspicacious in his very first chapter, I might add), and so when Mance changes the subject he never returns to it.

But why would Mance want Jon to think he'd been to Winterfell recently? I posit that Mance didn't recognise Jon at all, he recognised Ghost, and connected the dots: young-ish black brother, kind of looks like Benjen Stark, accompanied by a white direwolf: that's gotta be Jon Snow. Now, Mance definitely has seen Jon once before, when he was a child. But how does he know he's in the Night's Watch, and how does he know about the wolf? Theory: Mance has a source of information in the Night's Watch.

Giant hole in the theory #1: if Mance wanted to keep this informant a secret, then why didn't he just keep it a secret that he recognised Jon?

Somewhat plausible answer: because he'd rather blow Jon's mind with a crazy story, thus making him look cool - which is important for cementing his kingliness in Jon's mind - and also, it's a test, to see if Jon twigs it. Or something.

Anyway, the point of this thread is:

1. Is there anything in Mance's story that could only have come from first-hand knowledge?

2. How would gossip like that make it from the Wall to Mance?

 

Hmm. At first glance I thought this was going to be about his trip with qorgyle since that's the one that doesn't fit with the other timelines.

If you accept the qorgyle trip, Mance might still recognize him from that. Or Mance could have heard that Ned's bastard was at the wall and put two and two together when a boy with the stark looks walks in the tent. (Though I know this doesn't answer your question)

I don't see anything to suggest Mance is lying about the recent trip. I think you've pointed out the best answer to your first question in the singer.

 As far as how gossip travels, I see no reason to questions Mances assertion about trade between the free folk and nw brothers so I would have to go with that. I think we can never underestimate everyday people gossiping and telling stories. Now, I don't think they would be talking about the singer, but if mance wasn't there, that's how I would imagine he learned of it. That, or benjen told him

[Praetor Xyn]

To the best of my recollection, the video doesn't argue that Mance never went to WF. It says that Ned didn't hear Robert was coming until he was 3 days out, so either Mance heard about it way earlier or more likely his story to Jon about crossing the wall and making better time than Robert was a lie. It went on to posit that he was in or around White Harbor when he heard about it, which would give him time in 2 days to reach Robert's party a day's ride from Winterfell.

I don't see any reason to doubt he was there, just how he said he got there.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

43 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

To the best of my recollection, the video doesn't argue that Mance never went to WF. It says that Ned didn't hear Robert was coming until he was 3 days out, so either Mance heard about it way earlier or more likely his story to Jon about crossing the wall and making better time than Robert was a lie. It went on to posit that he was in or around White Harbor when he heard about it, which would give him time in 2 days to reach Robert's party a day's ride from Winterfell.

I don't see any reason to doubt he was there, just how he said he got there.

Like I said, their timeline is a bit squiffy. They have Robert a few days away when Ned finds out he's coming; I recall it being two months; "most precise ASOIAF timeline in existence" puts it at 7 weeks. Plus, the news from Winterfell to the Wall presumably travelled by raven, so it's not like it would've taken that much time - nor is there any evidence that Mance, if he's north of the Wall, is in the Frostfangs at that point - we don't know where he is, so their idea that he didn't have any time at all to get there is wrong.

I'm not dismissing the idea that he wasn't really north of the wall, or that some shady shit wasn't going down - I'm open to it, but I just don't think they've made a great case there, at least as far as the timeline goes. In fact while I'm at it, here's another error in their thinking, as far as I reckon:

They say Arthur is pretending to be "Mance", an ex-ranger, because it'd be too hard to pretend to be a wildling among wildlings. They'd spot the deception - but then they have Gerold Hightower posing as "Tormund", a wildling chieftain, evidently of some renown, and nobody ever outs him.

Also, they said something about Varymyr getting absorbed into the weirwood, and I'm like, wha? And they had Ned marrying Ashara in the sight of gods and men - but which men?

Also, slightly off-topic: was Mance perhaps looking for Bloodraven in the Frostfangs?

And why did he head south when he did? It seems as though he started heading south as soon as he got hold of Jon...

Did he not want Jon to see what they were doing up there, or had he coincidentally decided to get moving anyway, or was Jon what he was waiting for all along?

[Praetor Xyn]

4 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Like I said, their timeline is a bit squiffy. They have Robert a few days away when Ned finds out he's coming; I recall it being two months; "most precise ASOIAF timeline in existence" puts it at 7 weeks. Plus, the news from Winterfell to the Wall presumably travelled by raven, so it's not like it would've taken that much time - nor is there any evidence that Mance, if he's north of the Wall, is in the Frostfangs at that point - we don't know where he is, so their idea that he didn't have any time at all to get there is wrong.

I'm not dismissing the idea that he wasn't really north of the wall, or that some shady shit wasn't going down - I'm open to it, but I just don't think they've made a great case there, at least as far as the timeline goes. In fact while I'm at it, here's another error in their thinking, as far as I reckon:

They say Arthur is pretending to be "Mance", an ex-ranger, because it'd be too hard to pretend to be a wildling among wildlings. They'd spot the deception - but then they have Gerold Hightower posing as "Tormund", a wildling chieftain, evidently of some renown, and nobody ever outs him.

Also, they said something about Varymyr getting absorbed into the weirwood, and I'm like, wha? And they had Ned marrying Ashara in the sight of gods and men - but which men?

Also, slightly off-topic: was Mance perhaps looking for Bloodraven in the Frostfangs?

And why did he head south when he did? It seems as though he started heading south as soon as he got hold of Jon...

Did he not want Jon to see what they were doing up there, or had he coincidentally decided to get moving anyway, or was Jon what he was waiting for all along?

It's been too long since I read the books, so I'm fuzzy on the time lines and haven't bothered checking them.

I like the Mance is Arthur Dayne theory though I don't think their arguments for it are all correct, nor are they irrefutable. I just like it. The way Mance wrecked Jon in that little fight it would just be great if he was the SotM. He also makes a comment about how he missed a great sword in his hands, which would be great if he missed Dawn in his hands.

I do agree with them that there's something off about Tormund, for example him claiming to be illiterate when Jon receives the Pink Letter then two seconds later saying things about goose quill and paper and Master's ink. He's also said "dark wings, dark words", so he's clearly literate and displays a knowledge of writing and ravemcraft that no wildling should reasonably have. I don't necessarily think he's GH, but I've always thought he was odd, and he's one of my favorite characters honestly.

What Mance was doing in the Frostfangs is a good question. I personally think that he is going to look for the Horn in the crypto of Winterfell, so I don't buy that he was looking for it there.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

23 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I do agree with them that there's something off about Tormund, for example him claiming to be illiterate when Jon receives the Pink Letter then two seconds later saying things about goose quill and paper and Master's ink. He's also said "dark wings, dark words", so he's clearly literate and displays a knowledge of writing and ravemcraft that no wildling should reasonably have. I don't necessarily think he's GH, but I've always thought he was odd, and he's one of my favorite characters honestly.

Yeah, agreed about Tormund. I've wondered before that maybe him and Mance were doing a big of tag-team info-mind-boggliness... I can't think of a proper word for it... on Jon when they first meet.

Quote

"Who told you where we were, Jon Snow?"

Tormund snorted. "It were Craster, or I'm a blushing maid. I told you, Mance, that creature needs to be shorter by a head."

The king gave the older man an irritated look. "Tormund, some day try thinking before you speak. I know it was Craster. I asked Jon to see if he would tell it true."

"Har." Tormund spat. "Well, I stepped in that!" He grinned at Jon. "See, lad, that's why he's king and I'm not. I can outdrink, outfight, and outsing him, and my member's thrice the size o' his, but Mance has cunning. He was raised a crow, you know, and the crow's a tricksy bird."

 

 

And maybe he's not the only one, Tormund. Because after this exchange, Jon surely thinks that Tormund is some big, goofy, simple wildling... yet we learn later that he's pretty crafty himself. Why would they want him to think Tormund's dumb? So he lowers his guard around him. Mance places Jon under Tormund's supervision, and Tormund is the big friendly avuncular figure that softens Jon's image of the wildlings, as well as probably gets a good honest look at who Jon is. Bear in mind Mance wants Jon to like the wildlings, so he doesn't betray them to the Night's Watch.

And it works, too. When Jon is Lord Commander he lets the wildlings through: he mightn't've done that if he'd spent those first few weeks in Rattleshirt or Varymyr's company. He might've instead concluded that the wildlings were all cunts who could get fucked as far as he was concerned.

Just a thought.

[Praetor Xyn]

2 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Yeah, agreed about Tormund. I've wondered before that maybe him and Mance were doing a big of tag-team info-mind-boggliness... I can't think of a proper word for it... on Jon when they first meet.

 

And maybe he's not the only one, Tormund. Because after this exchange, Jon surely thinks that Tormund is some big, goofy, simple wildling... yet we learn later that he's pretty crafty himself. Why would they want him to think Tormund's dumb? So he lowers his guard around him. Mance places Jon under Tormund's supervision, and Tormund is the big friendly avuncular figure that softens Jon's image of the wildlings, as well as probably gets a good honest look at who Jon is. Bear in mind Mance wants Jon to like the wildlings, so he doesn't betray them to the Night's Watch.

And it works, too. When Jon is Lord Commander he lets the wildlings through: he mightn't've done that if he'd spent those first few weeks in Rattleshirt or Varymyr's company. He might've instead concluded that the wildlings were all cunts who could get fucked as far as he was concerned.

Just a thought.

I definitely think Tormund and Mance are scheming together. I mean, before Mance goes south he tells Jon right to his face that the spearwives will be useful for "a certain ploy I have in mind," openly admitting to scheming but Jon doesn't catch it. I also think Val is involved, as Mance openly brags to Jon about being able to climb any tower he wants, Val shows no emotion at Manchester burning, and later on Jon is getting ready to tell her what Melisandre saw in her fires, but Val already knows. I think it's reasonable to conclude she knows because Mance told her, which means she knows he's alive and is likely involved in his schemes.