OtherFromAnotherMother

A possible way for Arya to get to the wall (need help)

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Apologies if this has been discussed already. I did about 15 minutes of searching and couldn't find anything. Please redirect me if this has been thought of already...

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A thin film of ice covered the surface of the pool beneath the weirwood. Theon sank to his knees beside it. "Please," he murmured through his broken teeth, "I never meant …" The words caught in his throat. "Save me," he finally managed. "Give me …" What? Strength? Courage? Mercy? Snow fell around him, pale and silent, keeping its own counsel. The only sound was a faint soft sobbing. Jeyne, he thought. It is her, sobbing in her bridal bed. Who else could it be? Gods do not weep. Or do they?

The Turncloak, DwD 

I've been searching for a possible way for Arya to go back to the North. This quote stood out to me after reading through some wall/Winterfell chapters. Obviously I have my "Arya come back" goggles on but bear with me. 

We learn in Theon's WoW chapter that Stannis is sending Tycho, Massey, and fArya to the wall. If they get there Jon (if he is back by then) will obviously know who fArya is. What will he do with her? 

Back when Jon thinks the grey girl on the dying horse is Arya we get these thoughts from Jon:

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The best solution he could see would mean dispatching her to Eastwatch and asking Cotter Pyke to put her on a ship to someplace across the sea, beyond the reach of all these quarrelsome kings. It would need to wait until the ships returned from Hardhome, to be sure. She could return to Braavos with Tycho Nestoris. Perhaps the Iron Bank could help find some noble family to foster her. Braavos was the nearest of the Free Cities, though … which made it both the best and the worst choice. Lorath or the Port of Ibben might be safer. Wherever he might send her, though, Arya would need silver to support her, a roof above her head, someone to protect her. She was only a child.

So Jon has already thought about sending one Arya to Braavos, why not another? Of course, Jon may not be the one calling the shots at the wall when (if) fArya, Tycho, and Massey get there. Is there any way Tycho and Massey would still bring her with them to Braavos. I like to think it's possible, but am less convinced if it is not Jon in charge. I'd take some help here if anyone has some thoughts.

Why does it matter if fArya goes to Braavos? You have probably inferred where I am going with this from the quote I led off the post with. I think it is possible that if Jeyne gets to Braavos she may head to the House of B & W to seek the gift of mercy. She has been through a lot since heading to King's Landing. I'd say it's a possibility for her to do this should she learn of what the House of B & B is about. 

fArya has a valuable face in Westeros, specifically the North. The FM could make use of this face somehow. Arya would be a prime candidate for these uses, or her own uses. 

Some thoughts I am struggling with is why couldn't Arya just go as herself? And for what reasons would she go? 

Could you see George going with this in WoW, or am I just being foolish?

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On 2/12/2017 at 9:42 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

So Jon has already thought about sending one Arya to Braavos, why not another? Of course, Jon may not be the one calling the shots at the wall when (if) fArya, Tycho, and Massey get there. Is there any way Tycho and Massey would still bring her with them to Braavos. I like to think it's possible, but am less convinced if it is not Jon in charge. I'd take some help here if anyone has some thoughts.

Why does it matter if fArya goes to Braavos? You have probably inferred where I am going with this from the quote I led off the post with. I think it is possible that if Jeyne gets to Braavos she may head to the House of B & W to seek the gift of mercy. She has been through a lot since heading to King's Landing. I'd say it's a possibility for her to do this should she learn of what the House of B & B is about. 

fArya has a valuable face in Westeros, specifically the North. The FM could make use of this face somehow. Arya would be a prime candidate for these uses, or her own uses. 

Some thoughts I am struggling with is why couldn't Arya just go as herself? And for what reasons would she go? 

Could you see George going with this in WoW, or am I just being foolish?

I expect that when fArya arrives at the Wall, Jon will be unavailable (injured or dead).  Those in charge will not want her around.  Her escort will probably not allow her to be returned to Ramsay, so whoever is in charge at the Wall will probably send her on to Braavos to get her out of town.

I would expect that Arya would hear, relatively quickly, that someone with her name is in town, and seek out a meeting.  Hearing about events in Westeros could cause her to decide to return home, either alone or with Jeyne in tow.  One possibility would be for them to do like Myrcella and Rosamund and switch places for security reasons.

FArya's face is pretty worthless, actually, especially if it's widely suspected that she is an impostor.  Plus there are those, such as the Boltons and Littlefinger, who would likely kill or harm her on sight.  Anyone who would be able to recognize Arya would be likely to help her, though.  By the way, there are women from Winterfell (escapees from Ramsay) at White Harbor who could presumably recognize Arya if they saw her.

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19 hours ago, Nevets said:

I expect that when fArya arrives at the Wall, Jon will be unavailable (injured or dead).  Those in charge will not want her around.  Her escort will probably not allow her to be returned to Ramsay, so whoever is in charge at the Wall will probably send her on to Braavos to get her out of town.

I'm thinking the same. Jon won't be in a position to make the decision, but fArya will be able to continue on to Braavos with Tycho and Massey.

19 hours ago, Nevets said:

 

I would expect that Arya would hear, relatively quickly, that someone with her name is in town, and seek out a meeting.  Hearing about events in Westeros could cause her to decide to return home, either alone or with Jeyne in tow.  One possibility would be for them to do like Myrcella and Rosamund and switch places for security reasons.

Interesting idea that maybe both return to Westeros. I hadn't considered that as a possibility. I see fArya going away in Braavos, either gift of mercy or just staying out of Westeros. If both came back what purpose would it serve for Arya? To show everyone she is alive? Do you think she would have interest in becoming Lady of Winterfell? 

19 hours ago, Nevets said:

FArya's face is pretty worthless, actually, especially if it's widely suspected that she is an impostor.  Plus there are those, such as the Boltons and Littlefinger, who would likely kill or harm her on sight.  Anyone who would be able to recognize Arya would be likely to help her, though.  

Interesting. But if everyone thinks Arya is dead, fArya is still valuable, right? Yes, many suspect her as an impostor but a valuable imposter nonetheless. Stannis doesn't seem to realize she is a fake, making her very valuable should he win at Winterfell. I'm not concerned with LF quite yet, as he is still too far away. 

19 hours ago, Nevets said:

 By the way, there are women from Winterfell (escapees from Ramsay) at White Harbor who could presumably recognize Arya if they saw her.

Is there a quote for this? I thought the women and children were taken to the Dreadfort by Ramsey.

Quote

Lord Wyman nodded. “The tale you tell is one we all have heard, as full of lies as a pudding’s full of raisins. It was the Bastard of Bolton who put Winterfell to the sword … Ramsay Snow, he was called then, before the boy king made him a Bolton. Snow did not kill them all. He spared the women, roped them together, and marched them to the Dreadfort for his sport.”

 

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

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My feeling is that Arya will return to Jon at some point. They are their closest brother/sister. And, IMO, what she does at the B&W House is connected with Death and the Others (but I can't say why). Your idea of Jeyne going to the B&W and Arya using her face, or returning to Westeros by this occurrence is interesting.

One thing I'm convinced is the humans will not defeat the Others by combat. They need to find some peace. And Arya (and LSH) could help in this direction, by their own connection to death.

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34 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

My feeling is that Arya will return to Jon at some point. They are their closest brother/sister. And, IMO, what she does at the B&W House is connected with Death and the Others (but I can't say why). Your idea of Jeyne going to the B&W and Arya using her face, or returning to Westeros by this occurrence is interesting.

Assuming fArya makes it to Braavos with Tycho and Massey she has to have some sort of interaction with Arya, right? It would be very George like to have Arya meet fArya, possibly using her face.

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5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Is there a quote for this? I thought the women and children were taken to the Dreadfort by Ramsey.

I don't have the book handy, but Manderly tells Davos that, from time to time, one of his hunting victims escapes to Manderly land, which is how they heard about the hunts in the first place.  Presumably, those women and girls are still in the area.

 

5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Interesting idea that maybe both return to Westeros. I hadn't considered that as a possibility. I see fArya going away in Braavos, either gift of mercy or just staying out of Westeros. If both came back what purpose would it serve for Arya? To show everyone she is alive? Do you think she would have interest in becoming Lady of Winterfell? 

If she returns, it will be to take on responsibilities, so to say, as Ned's daughter.  Finding out that there are Northmen willing to fight, kill, and die for her might be interesting.  Also, I anticipate that her relationship with the FM will deteriorate after Raff's murder, so there will be little point in remaining in Braavos

 

5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

nteresting. But if everyone thinks Arya is dead, fArya is still valuable, right? Yes, many suspect her as an impostor but a valuable imposter nonetheless. Stannis doesn't seem to realize she is a fake, making her very valuable should he win at Winterfell. I'm not concerned with LF quite yet, as he is still too far away. 

I seriously doubt she knows how to change faces on her own, so she would be stuck with Jeyne's face.  I also don't think she will be with the FM all that much longer. If exposed as an impostor, it would seriously limit her options.  Also, the Boltons are looking for her.  I doubt that Jeyne will show up at the HoB&W anyway.  

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I agree, I think Jeyne will end up in Braavos in Winds. What would be even more messed up: If Jeyne strikes a similar deal like the Waif and offers to serve in the HoBW but in return Jeyne prays for a death/name that Arya takes it upon herself to complete - either way she is breaking away from the FM. 

Who has brought more suffering, pain and torment to little Jeyne Poole? How poetic would it be for Ramsay to meet the wife he could have had in the real Arya Stark. :o

 

 

Edited by DutchArya

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2 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Who has brought more suffering, pain and torment to little Jeyne Poole? How poetic would it be for Ramsay to meet the wife he could have had in the real Arya Stark. :o

 

I love it! Good call @DutchArya.

 

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Hi there. I don't think George is going to reuse the same plot over and over. He already had the fArya go to the wall. The wall is going to fall before she gets to Westeros anyway so there won't be anything there for her to go to. Sorry if that sounds confusing ^_^ Arya is set up to get back to the Riverlands, but I think it will be Daenerys who brings her there from Braavos.

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7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

My feeling is that Arya will return to Jon at some point. They are their closest brother/sister. And, IMO, what she does at the B&W House is connected with Death and the Others (but I can't say why). Your idea of Jeyne going to the B&W and Arya using her face, or returning to Westeros by this occurrence is interesting.

One thing I'm convinced is the humans will not defeat the Others by combat. They need to find some peace. And Arya (and LSH) could help in this direction, by their own connection to death.

I don't know of the real Arya can use Jeyne's face because she is now going to lose part of her nose. I don't think the faceless men can make a body part not there. Right? But it is ironic that Arya is a faceless man and Jeyne as the fake Arya is in a way going to be faceless.

I am curious about how you see the humans defeating the Other by finding peace? I figured they would need the magic of dragon fire to defeat them.

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10 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Hi there. I don't think George is going to reuse the same plot over and over. He already had the fArya go to the wall. The wall is going to fall before she gets to Westeros anyway so there won't be anything there for her to go to. Sorry if that sounds confusing ^_^ Arya is set up to get back to the Riverlands, but I think it will be Daenerys who brings her there from Braavos.

Hello!

Interesting ideas. Do you think fArya will get to Braavos? I would just be very suprised if fArya doesn't have some sort of interaction with Arya should fArya make it to Braavos. 

The Riverlands would be another appropriate destination for Arya. Maybe meet Lady Stoneheart?

I just have to think that her and Jon will find a way to end up in the same place. And for me that place would be in the North, but that is purely based on more speculations of mine that Jon will be needed up there.

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1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Hello!

Interesting ideas. Do you think fArya will get to Braavos? I would just be very suprised if fArya doesn't have some sort of interaction with Arya should fArya make it to Braavos. 

The Riverlands would be another appropriate destination for Arya. Maybe meet Lady Stoneheart?

I just have to think that her and Jon will find a way to end up in the same place. And for me that place would be in the North, but that is purely based on more speculations of mine that Jon will be needed up there.

Thanks!

I guess I never thought of fArya actually making it to Braavos, but now that you mention it I think she will. Jon was going to send Arya there right away with a bag of silver and I think we read in the story that silver is for healing? Maybe that is a subtle way to say fArya will be sent off and safe before the wall falls?

I always figured Jon would have to come down to the Riverlands, maybe pushed back from the fights and hoards of Others and wights pushing through? Jon and Daenerys seem to dream of each other in the Trident and they have to meet at sometime so they can rule together. The meeting place at where her brother died, and was his father, seems to be the best spot. I think their Targaryen blood is bringing them together.

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1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Hello!

Interesting ideas. Do you think fArya will get to Braavos? I would just be very suprised if fArya doesn't have some sort of interaction with Arya should fArya make it to Braavos. 

The Riverlands would be another appropriate destination for Arya. Maybe meet Lady Stoneheart?

I just have to think that her and Jon will find a way to end up in the same place. And for me that place would be in the North, but that is purely based on more speculations of mine that Jon will be needed up there.

I actually like the idea of her going to the Riverlands better than the North. She can meet with Lady stoneheart and Brienne, as well as Gendry, plus her wolf, Nymeria.  Lots of potential interesting meetings.  As for her and Jon, a logical place to meet is Winterfell.  I theorize that there will be a big meeting there to coordinate plans for the fight against the Others. 

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On 15/02/2017 at 9:37 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Assuming fArya makes it to Braavos with Tycho and Massey she has to have some sort of interaction with Arya, right? It would be very George like to have Arya meet fArya, possibly using her face.

GRRM introduced us with the concept of assassins using other people face. And teaching the skill to Arya. I would be surprised if Arya doesn't use it later, in the big game. Whether by herself or by the FM instruction. She could use an anonymous face. But using Jeyne's would be more "tying the bits together". But if Aryas uses Jeyne's face, it must be to trick someone knowing her. And yes, Ramsey makes a lot of sense. But I don't feel him important, maybe for Arya, but less likely for the FM.

I was thinking of tricking someone else, more difficult to kill, more worthy of Arya. She does not yet know Jeyne, but she should meet her before she goes to Bravos: Melisandre. Who already confound the 2 girls. I know this is very speculative, but both Melisandre and the FM are parties in the coming war. And I don't think they are on the same side. Cressen tried and failed to kill Melisandre. IMO someone else will try and succeed.

16 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

I am curious about how you see the humans defeating the Other by finding peace? I figured they would need the magic of dragon fire to defeat them.

I feel the humans are facing gods, not some slightly magic creatures they could defeat with swords and dragons. This is mainly from the WoIaF book. But everything written make sense in the current situation. The wrongs and forbidden magic which brought the first Long Night. The Lion of Night (a god) sending his demons, the godlike power necessary (IMO) to bring the LN. The victory by "leading the virtuous into battle"... Battle, but it is not said against who: the Others or the non virtuous?

IMO, it is the abuse of force which lead to the current situation. And I feel something else is needed to fix that. I feel, if the corruption is purged, the Others will return to their sleep or whatever.

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

GRRM introduced us with the concept of assassins using other people face. And teaching the skill to Arya. I would be surprised if Arya doesn't use it later, in the big game. Whether by herself or by the FM instruction. She could use an anonymous face. But using Jeyne's would be more "tying the bits together". But if Aryas uses Jeyne's face, it must be to trick someone knowing her. And yes, Ramsey makes a lot of sense. But I don't feel him important, maybe for Arya, but less likely for the FM.

I was thinking of tricking someone else, more difficult to kill, more worthy of Arya. She does not yet know Jeyne, but she should meet her before she goes to Bravos: Melisandre. Who already confound the 2 girls. I know this is very speculative, but both Melisandre and the FM are parties in the coming war. And I don't think they are on the same side. Cressen tried and failed to kill Melisandre. IMO someone else will try and succeed

The biggest problem I have with this is that I don't see any indication that they are actually training her to be an assassin.  She hasn't really learned anything about actually killing people, except for stuff from the Waif on poisons, and I expect any maester probably knows more than she does.  And her killing of Raff is likely to displease the FM, as they seem to frown on killing for personal motives.  

Going after Ramsay with Jeyne's face would be incredibly foolish.  He would certainly imprison her, and probably do serious harm (he mentioned something about cutting feet off).  And I find it hard to believe that a beginner would be sent after a target such as Melisandre, or anyone else we know about.  And given their likely concerns about her behavior and attitude, I doubt they would sent her out solo in any case.

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5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The biggest problem I have with this is that I don't see any indication that they are actually training her to be an assassin.  She hasn't really learned anything about actually killing people, except for stuff from the Waif on poisons, and I expect any maester probably knows more than she does.  And her killing of Raff is likely to displease the FM, as they seem to frown on killing for personal motives.  

Going after Ramsay with Jeyne's face would be incredibly foolish.  He would certainly imprison her, and probably do serious harm (he mentioned something about cutting feet off).  And I find it hard to believe that a beginner would be sent after a target such as Melisandre, or anyone else we know about.  And given their likely concerns about her behavior and attitude, I doubt they would sent her out solo in any case.

I agree with this. Pretty much everything the FM teach Arya is transferable to a life outside of being an assassin. They probably would teach her further methods to kill people if she were to stay with them indefinitely, but what she has been taught so far works as a plausible introduction to life with the FM and allows GRRM to give her more useful skills for when she returns to Westeros.

There is no way the FM would send someone who has not lost their identity on a mission so close to home even if they were fully trained. Were she to stay I'd imagine the leadership would avoid sending her to Westeros for years, if ever.

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4 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

There is no way the FM would send someone who has not lost their identity on a mission so close to home even if they were fully trained. Were she to stay I'd imagine the leadership would avoid sending her to Westeros for years, if ever.

I think it's possible that the FM have their own agenda for Arya. An agenda beyond being just a Faceless Man. I don't know yet what thst agenda might be but it may involve Arya’s skinchanging abilities. I'm always bothered by this quote from the Kindly Man.

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"You lie. I can see the truth in your eyes. You have the eyes of a wolf and a taste for blood."

 

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5 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think it's possible that the FM have their own agenda for Arya. An agenda beyond being just a Faceless Man. I don't know yet what thst agenda might be but it may involve Arya’s skinchanging abilities. I'm always bothered by this quote from the Kindly Man.

It's pretty likely there is a lot more to the FM than we currently know. Given how little effort Arya puts into becoming no-one they would be well within their rights to have kicked her out by now, but they show so much patience. I think they may intend for the acolytes to react badly to being told to become no-one. Perhaps it is to teach them that they must always remember who they are when on a mission. It is no good being subsumed by the identities they take on if they forget what they are there to do.

But if it is all meant to be taken at face value then Arya would be a bad choice for a job in Westeros.

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47 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The biggest problem I have with this is that I don't see any indication that they are actually training her to be an assassin.  She hasn't really learned anything about actually killing people, except for stuff from the Waif on poisons, and I expect any maester probably knows more than she does.  And her killing of Raff is likely to displease the FM, as they seem to frown on killing for personal motives. 

 

35 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

I agree with this. Pretty much everything the FM teach Arya is transferable to a life outside of being an assassin. They probably would teach her further methods to kill people if she were to stay with them indefinitely, but what she has been taught so far works as a plausible introduction to life with the FM and allows GRRM to give her more useful skills for when she returns to Westeros.

There is no way the FM would send someone who has not lost their identity on a mission so close to home even if they were fully trained. Were she to stay I'd imagine the leadership would avoid sending her to Westeros for years, if ever.

They gave her a face and sent her to kill someone. If it is not training... I don't know what is their goal with her. But it could be killing someone. Why they would use her, rather than their best killers is another mystery. Why are they keeping this girl at all is yet another mystery. From the start it was evident Arya is not a girl to obey everything she is told. She has not their discipline and will never have.

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5 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

It's pretty likely there is a lot more to the FM than we currently know. Given how little effort Arya puts into becoming no-one they would be well within their rights to have kicked her out by now, but they show so much patience. I think they may intend for the acolytes to react badly to being told to become no-one. Perhaps it is to teach them that they must always remember who they are when on a mission. It is no good being subsumed by the identities they take on if they forget what they are there to do.

But if it is all meant to be taken at face value then Arya would be a bad choice for a job in Westeros.

 

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

 

They gave her a face and sent her to kill someone. If it is not training... I don't know what is their goal with her. But it could be killing someone. Why they would use her, rather than their best killers is another mystery. Why are they keeping this girl at all is yet another mystery. From the start it was evident Arya is not a girl to obey everything she is told. She has not their discipline and will never have.

I have a theory that they are intending to manipulate her into being a source of assistance and information in Westeros.   In order to do this, they would either force her out or let her leave, but exact a price: that she help them in the future if they come to her.  Given that she is likely to be in a position of power and influence in the future, she would be a useful asset. 

It's either that or they are simply stringing her along until they can figure out why Jaqen sent her and what to do with her.

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