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Weird quote about the Targaryens from Tyrion ADWD


CornishDornish

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From Tyrion II of ADWD he spots the Valyrian road and gets to thinking about Targaryen expansion in general and this is what weirded me out

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The Freehold's grasp had reached as far as Dragonstone, but never to the mainland of Westeros itself. Odd, that. Dragonstone is no more than a rock. The wealth was farther west, but they had dragons. Surely they knew that it was there.

I'm guessing Tyrion finds it peculiar that even before the Doom the Valyrians never attempted (as far as we know) to colonise the Sunset Kingdoms. I suppose this is easy to explain away it would have been very difficult and they had the Rhoynar to deal with and an already large empire in Essos. But then it gets weird - according to history they colonised Dragonstone 12 years before the Doom due to visions of the Apocalypse yet it wasn't till 100 years after that Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives started their conquest.

So the question is: they had the power (dragons) and they were literally next door to the Stormlands so why didn't the descendants of the Targaryen survivors try to take Westeros earlier? The Valyrians weren't exactly a peaceful people so what was holding them back?

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It's possible that Aegon's parents/grandparents etc spent those 100 years slowly capturing the islands of Blackwater Bay and bringing the Velaryon's, Celtigar's and Bar Emmon's under their rule. Perhaps they knew the dragons alone wouldn't be enough and needed time to build their fleets and land armies up first. It's also worth keeping in mind that as far as we know, the only dragons they had during that period were Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes and of those the latter two would only have hatched about 50 years before the conquest.

Finally, it may just come down to the personality's of the rulers at the time. Maybe the first Lord of Dragonstone wanted to focus on establishing Targaryen power on Dragonstone and conquered the other islands, with his son being a coward and his grandson content and peace-loving for example.

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There are a lot of possibilities about it.

They could've been to busy with the politics in Essos to care about Westeros.

The Targaryen dragons could've been to young to fight properly.

Perharps they didn't had a fleet or men enough to enforce they rule so far from Valyria.

 

Then there is a prophecy, which could or could not be real:

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The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold’s sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that caused them to shun all of Westeros thereafte

 

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The Targaryans were bottom of the barrell dragons riders meaning they only had a small amount of dragons perhaps they thought it to risky to risk said small batch of dragons untill they had a solid hold on Dragonstone and the nobility of Blackwater bay. Or perhaps they had no dragons eggs and waiting untill the dragons they currently have produced more which could take a while?. 

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I think there's something more to it. something having to do with the supernatural interaction of ice and fire, Valyrians and Starks, others and COTF, whatever the  magical/supernatural mystery connection is that underlies the background plot of the books. in other words, westeros was somehow warded against valyrians/dragons or something like that.

remember, of the many mysteries in asoiaf, perhaps THE mystery, is why now? why now, after however many thousands of years, have the others arisen to again invade the realms of men? what is it that was previously keeping them down/out/asleep, and what has changed, gone out of balance to wake them? It must have something to do with dragons, Valyrians, Targaryens, Starks, COTF, some interaction of them.

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There needn't be anything "supernatural" about it. You can't take AND HOLD territory with air power alone. The US has kept re-learning this lesson for some 70 years now.

The Targaryons needed ships and armies, too. The dragons were merely the clincher.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Another possibility is the presence of skinchangers in Westeros.  Perhaps the dragon riders were leery about the possibility of losing control of their dragons if they invaded Westeros.

An interesting possibility. I have often wondered it had something to do with the construction of Harrenhal. We know a lot of Weirwoods were cut down from the Isle of Faces. People have theorized that Weirwoods are at the base of the Wall and are part of the protection that prevents the Others from crossing. What if the Weirwoods on the Isle were preventing the dragons from entering Westeros?

It's said that Aegon travelled the kingdoms before the invasion, its odd that he wouldn't take as he travelled. Also is it important that Aegon lands the same day as Harrenhal is completed?

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7 hours ago, zandru said:

There needn't be anything "supernatural" about it. You can't take AND HOLD territory with air power alone. The US has kept re-learning this lesson for some 70 years now.

The Targaryons needed ships and armies, too. The dragons were merely the clincher.

And yet the quote in the OP. And the point remade in TWOIAF. There will be a reason, and it won't be simple logistics.

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It's obviously something supernatural, which will be expanded on in the last books. Martin wants us to think about how Dany's dragons will do in Westeros.

 

Aegon took the seven kingdoms with just three dragons, I'm sure the Valyrians could have easily subdued them with their power if this weren't the case. 

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14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Another possibility is the presence of skinchangers in Westeros.  Perhaps the dragon riders were leery about the possibility of losing control of their dragons if they invaded Westeros.

This is something I've been thinking about as well. If the Targs did land at the wrong time at the wrong place then they would have faced the very real danger of having their dragons used against them by the Children of the Forest. Other readers have speculated that the cave that Bran and the 3 eyed Crow is in is/was the site of mass sacrifice over the centuries. And after a second re-read of that chapter I have to agree. Jojen states in the very same chapter that when a person dies their soul their everything is absorbed by the Weirwoods

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Bran III ADWD

The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

Question is what would happen if a dragon, dragon rider or both were absorbed by the Weirnet collective? Bran remembers seeing skeletons of giant bats in the caves so I see no reason why the Children would not be interested in adding a dragon or two to their collection. This leads me doubt that Leaf is telling the truth when she claims that the Children have not explored the caves and that there are plenty of nasty surprises below the 3 eyed crow, maybe even the Ice Spiders of Old Nan's stories.

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12 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

An interesting possibility. I have often wondered it had something to do with the construction of Harrenhal. We know a lot of Weirwoods were cut down from the Isle of Faces. People have theorized that Weirwoods are at the base of the Wall and are part of the protection that prevents the Others from crossing. What if the Weirwoods on the Isle were preventing the dragons from entering Westeros?

It's said that Aegon travelled the kingdoms before the invasion, its odd that he wouldn't take as he travelled. Also is it important that Aegon lands the same day as Harrenhal is completed?

It is said that Harren the Black's cruelty was legendary in the Seven Kingdoms....that's saying something! It does make one wonder what he was doing that was so bad that Targ dominance was preferable. Maybe the secret lies on the Gods Eye. 

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15 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Another possibility is the presence of skinchangers in Westeros.  Perhaps the dragon riders were leery about the possibility of losing control of their dragons if they invaded Westeros.

I like it. I think the interaction of skinchanging/warging and dragons will be important. Bran is told he will fly after all. That could be literal.

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On 2/14/2017 at 0:47 PM, CornishDornish said:

It is said that Harren the Black's cruelty was legendary in the Seven Kingdoms....that's saying something! It does make one wonder what he was doing that was so bad that Targ dominance was preferable. Maybe the secret lies on the Gods Eye. 

Barring any future reveals,

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Every child of the Trident knew the tales told of Harrenhal, the vast fortress that King Harren the Black had raised beside the waters of Gods Eye three hundred years past, when the Seven Kingdoms had been seven kingdoms, and the riverlands were ruled by the ironmen from the islands. In his pride, Harren had desired the highest hall and tallest towers in all Westeros. Forty years it had taken, rising like a great shadow on the shore of the lake while Harren's armies plundered his neighbors for stone, lumber, gold, and workers. Thousands of captives died in his quarries, chained to his sledges, or laboring on his five colossal towers. Men froze by winter and sweltered in summer. Weirwoods that had stood three thousand years were cut down for beams and rafters. Harren had beggared the riverlands and the Iron Islands alike to ornament his dream. And when at last Harrenhal stood complete, on the very day King Harren took up residence, Aegon the Conqueror had come ashore at King's Landing. (ACOK Catelyn I)

 

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I always assumed that they took Dragonstone just because as an active volcano it would be a great spot for hatching dragons and that they just didn't care about the rest of Westeros. I find the arguments about skin changers and weirwoods quite interesting though. Especially if weirwood arrows would in fact kill a dragon.   When were the children of the forest driven into hiding in relation to Aegon's take over? Is it possible that they feared the children and their magic, but not the men who drove them out?

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6 hours ago, Rusty Winchester said:
6 hours ago, Rusty Winchester said:

I always assumed that they took Dragonstone just because as an active volcano it would be a great spot for hatching dragons and that they just didn't care about the rest of Westeros. I find the arguments about skin changers and weirwoods quite interesting though. Especially if weirwood arrows would in fact kill a dragon.   When were the children of the forest driven into hiding in relation to Aegon's take over? Is it possible that they feared the children and their magic, but not the men who drove them out?

It goes Dawn Age (CotF/Giants) then coming of First Men. The pact starts the Age of Heroes followed by the Long Night. The world book says Valyria forms as Westeros is recovering. So the children were a smaller population from the beginning of Valyria

To the OP, I think of Tyrion's quote to apply to Valyrians in their prime, not to Targs. The first Targs on Dragonstone looked to Essos to regain Valyrian power. Just like everyone else, so it was called the Century of Blood. As for why the Targs never invaded, I am now curious if they did learn the hard way that the remaining CotF knew how to stop them.

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On 2/13/2017 at 10:05 AM, The Hoare said:

 

Ughhh... Trying to quote from a phone sucks so sorry about that. but I am referring to Hoare's quote.

If dragon riders suffered a set back at Oldtown, perhaps that knowledge is still there. And the person who would know it is on his way to see three dragons right meow...

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On 2/13/2017 at 6:27 PM, Brother Seamus said:

I think there's something more to it. something having to do with the supernatural interaction of ice and fire, Valyrians and Starks, others and COTF, whatever the  magical/supernatural mystery connection is that underlies the background plot of the books. in other words, westeros was somehow warded against valyrians/dragons or something like that.

remember, of the many mysteries in asoiaf, perhaps THE mystery, is why now? why now, after however many thousands of years, have the others arisen to again invade the realms of men? what is it that was previously keeping them down/out/asleep, and what has changed, gone out of balance to wake them? It must have something to do with dragons, Valyrians, Targaryens, Starks, COTF, some interaction of them.

 

On 2/13/2017 at 6:42 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Another possibility is the presence of skinchangers in Westeros.  Perhaps the dragon riders were leery about the possibility of losing control of their dragons if they invaded Westeros.

Torrhen's bastard brother seemed to think that dragons would be susceptible to Weirwood arrows  

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It's simple maybe not simple but this is what I have come to find that there's some kind of battle between fire elements and Ice elements. what I mean by the struggle is being triggered bu ice events and then fire events. 600 years ago at hardhome there was some kind of a volcanic event and hardhome burn to the ground, a hundred years later the Targaryen moved to Dragonstone 100 hundred years after that  the Doom of valyria happens, 100 years after that you've got the Targaryen is coming to Westeros and then the timetable just spit up after this has landed in Westeros.

So it's like a ice event than a fire event another fire event fire event. With the Targw in Westeros and the Starks bending the knee its a fire event dominating a ice event. Then its the reign of fire i.e the Targs rule. The world is out of balance. I can al.ost see the others as an equalizer. Coming in to reset the world allowing it to heal.

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