US Politics: Opening Pandora's Box

[Fragile Bird]

Please continue.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

The last bit in the previous thread made me think of "Dog Whistles and Whistleblowers: Not the same thing"

also "Leaks are so Embarrassing...sponsored by Poise"

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Actually, I'm a little bit with Commodore on this one.  There's part of me that wonders whether, in fact, the leak was made now as a way to take down Flynn - a sacrifice, so to speak, to appease the angry gods and go on kleptocrating.  That said, the fact that it happened at all is WAY, WAY, WAY more troubling, and I hope we do find out more.

[Kalbear]

On this bit:

Quote

 

Flynn resigning for misleading Pence is fine, but nothing he did was illegal. It's not improper for him to speak with a Russian ambassador.

It is absolutely improper and, actually, illegal for the incoming administration to discuss policy with foreign officials in any capacity. There is a reason that the DoJ signalled that the Russians could blackmail Flynn - it was because he lied about it AND violated the Logan act. This means two things - that he felt that he needed to cover it up, and that the Russians knew he lied about it.

Both are not good.

In a more reasonable and bipartisan legislative system I'd expect there to be major investigations. I still kind of expect them - while Chaffetz continues to be a partisan hack of the highest regard, others like Graham are pushing forward with the Russian investigation, and this is going to be big on their radar. 

Quote

What's disgusting is intel chiefs using resources to spy on political opponents and then leaking to the press. This is Clapper/Brennan/Yates' doing, and they seem to have zero fear of prosecution. Clapper was the one who lied to Congress about NSA surveillance and suffered no consequences. 

Note that they did not leak anything classified; they simply noted that Flynn lied. And that later, that there was a notification to the executive office that Flynn could be blackmailed. 

That's kind of a big deal. If the executive branch isn't going to protect itself from potentially treasonous and criminal behaviors, others are going to blow the whistle on them. 

[SerHaHa]

Quote

The leak came only after the administration had been warned about a problem and did nothing to address it. That is when 'leaks' become whistleblowing, alerting the public to information that they have a right to know and which will not come out any other way.

Perfect - now apply this to the hacking of the DNC/emails. 

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Actually, I'm a little bit with Commodore on this one.  There's part of me that wonders whether, in fact, the leak was made now as a way to take down Flynn - a sacrifice, so to speak, to appease the angry gods and go on kleptocrating.  That said, the fact that it happened at all is WAY, WAY, WAY more troubling, and I hope we do find out more.

I don't think so. The more plausible thing to me is that the intelligence department considers the POTUS office to be entirely compromised, and they're fucking pissed off. Flynn was the easiest target - largely because he had been so incredibly compromised and incredibly incompetent besides - but I don't think for a second that Trump et al want this. This is a huge black mark on their face, and if what you say is true Trump would have instead acted strongly and fired him quickly instead of letting him resign while he was deliberating. 

[Fragile Bird]

Again, I want to repeat, intel chiefs did NOT use resources to spy on political opponents. They eavesdrop on the Russians (and a lot of other diplomats) and have eavesdropped on them probably for the last hundred years.

Flynn, of all people, should have known that. That Borowitz column is so damn funny because it's true.

3 minutes ago, SerHaHa said:

Perfect - now apply this to the hacking of the DNC/emails. 

Really? The DNC were communicating with hostile foreign governments?

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, SerHaHa said:

Perfect - now apply this to the hacking of the DNC/emails. 

The DNC, maybe. The DWS stuff was pretty bad and really should have been dealt with earlier.

The Podesta emails, not a chance. There was literally nothing there worth a damn save people getting freaked out about bizarre conspiracies. 

The other issue is that there is a difference between someone who knows that something is wrong and tells others at personal risk vs. someone who has no idea what might be wrong but is looking for compromising material. Does the public have the 'right' to know about someone cheating on their spouse? Does the public have the 'right' to know about people not liking other people? These things are damaging personally, but they're not particularly indicative of a public need for information - they're gossip. 

Whereas Flynn negotiating with foreign officials about policy while his admin isn't actually in power and then lying about it is an actual violation of law.

 

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Flynn, of all people, should have known that. That Borowitz column is so damn funny because it's true.

Note that while the Borowitz column is satire, this foreign policy article which says similar things is not.

Quote

 

Now that Trump is in power, political elites in Moscow have stopped cheering. They recognize that Russia’s position has become abruptly and agonizingly complex.

It’s true that Trump’s accession opens up the possibility of “normalizing” Russia’s relations with the West, beginning with a reduction or even elimination of sanctions. It also validates many of Russia’s ideological criticisms of the liberal order and may perhaps foreshadow policy reversals that Moscow has long hoped for: from Washington’s disengagement from the Ukraine crisis to its dissolution of the Cold War Western alliance. Russians also celebrate Trump’s unfiltered stream-of-consciousness diatribes as signaling a welcome end to America’s hypocrisy and condescension.

But Trump’s revolution is also ushering in a period of turmoil and uncertainty, including the likelihood of self-defeating trade wars. Still traumatized by the disintegration of the Soviet Union, Russia’s present leadership has no appetite for global instability.

 

 

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

8 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

On this bit:

It is absolutely improper and, actually, illegal for the incoming administration to discuss policy with foreign officials in any capacity. There is a reason that the DoJ signalled that the Russians could blackmail Flynn - it was because he lied about it AND violated the Logan act. This means two things - that he felt that he needed to cover it up, and that the Russians knew he lied about it.

 

When I used to do investigations for security clearances, this was one of the big things. Not that you did something so much, but that it was important to you to not have it become public knowledge. 

 

 

[Zorral]

Look at the vids of  Flynn inciting the Lock Her Up Half Hour of Hate at the Rethug Con this summer:

"If I had done what she did, if I'd done just a tenth of what she'd did, I'd be in jail today. Crooked Hillary Clinton drop out now," he says.

Whilst the little hands howls about hurting US security when I discuss what to do with north Korea, he talks about this security in the middle of a public space where any leetle teeny drone with mic and camera can hear and see it all -- and randos take photos of the clown -- and with the clown -- running around with the nuke football.

All of them have committed so many criminal acts already they should be in jail for life.

Their activities should be blasted into those church news feeds etc. which is the only place the base gets its 'news."  The base will never be converted, can't be.  It can only be conquered.  So the russian stooge faction has been currently weakened.  But thaq only strengthens what the racist base really cares about: punishing muslims, blacks and women for their uppityness.

 

[Fragile Bird]

Sean Spicer press conference is about to start.

[mormont]

10 minutes ago, SerHaHa said:

Perfect - now apply this to the hacking of the DNC/emails. 

Problem number one there is that hacking of information by a third party isn't whistleblowing. Whistleblowing is when you, or I, in the normal course of our duties, become aware of information indicating wrongdoing in an organisation of which we are part (usually by being an employee): and, having no other means or having exhausted other means of trying to get the organisation to do something about it, we then make a public disclosure of the facts.

Using illegal methods to proactively look for compromising information about an organisation of which we are not a part, for the express purpose of damaging that organisation, doesn't meet any element of that definition. Not one. So these are not the same thing.

Far from being 'perfect' this is as imperfect a comparison as can be imagined.

[Fragile Bird]

When people introduce Hitler into a conversation, we call that an example of Godwin's Law.

What do we call it when observers call a political situation a Game of Thrones situation? Martin's Law?

CNN says that the reason Kellyanne Conway could come out and say Flynn had the full confidence of Trump only have Spicer come out an hour later and say something different is because staff are not speaking to each other, that they are all busy  stabbing each other in the back, a GoT situation among the staff.

Flynn tweeted last night he was a scapegoat. For who? Did Trump tell him to discuss sanctions with the Russians? Did Bannon?

Oh, breaking news: the Russians have just launched a kind of cruise missile made illegal under their arms treaty with the US.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Fragile Bird said:

Flynn tweeted last night he was a scapegoat. For who? Did Trump tell him to discuss sanctions with the Russians? Did Bannon?

 

FYI: Flynn did not tweet last night. His account is still closed. Any that exist are fakes. Make sure they have the blue checkmark before doing anything else.

[Week]

17 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Sean Spicer press conference is about to start.

Starting out with Eugene Levy Steve Mnuchin. Let's avoid the obvious questions for as long as possible by discussing sanctions on the VP of Venezuela.

[JGP]

4 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Oh, breaking news: the Russians have just launched a kind of cruise missile made illegal under their arms treaty with the US.

Yeah... that broke on Twitter over an hour ago. Interesting though. A hound's food is in it'so legs. 

[Fragile Bird]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

FYI: Flynn did not tweet last night. His account is still closed. Any that exist are fakes. Make sure they have the blue checkmark before doing anything else.

Somebody should tell CNN that. They and some of their guests have mentioned the tweet several times.

[Kalbear]

You're talking about this one?

Totally fake.

[Relic]

Just now, JEORDHl said:

Yeah... that broke on Twitter over an hour ago. Interesting though. A hound's food is in it'so legs. 

Launched? I think they deployed them, heard nothing about a launch. Was it a field test or was there a target?