US Politics: Opening Pandora's Box

[Ice Queen]

2 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Trump's 'philosemitism' includes non-support for a two state (or maybe support for a one-state; who can tell) solution. You'd be having two fundamentally opposed tribes within the same boundaries (using some of the framing in this thread).....how is this good for Israel?

At any rate, just like global warming, it feels like the window for a two-state solution is rapidly closing. And all caused by 75000 of my fellow midwesterners.

Trump will be in favor of whichever solution makes him the most money. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Trump's 'philosemitism' includes non-support for a two state (or maybe support for a one-state; who can tell) solution. You'd be having two fundamentally opposed tribes within the same boundaries (using some of the framing in this thread).....how is this good for Israel?

 I don't think he even knows what a 2-state solution means...

 

 

 

[Happy Ent]

27 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

NIt's just the usual bs argument that being anti-sionist (or criticizing Israeli policy) is akin to antisemitism. Because in many countries the left is highly critical of Israel, the idea is that the left is somehow anti-semitic.

I don’t know. This doesn’t seem like a correct representation of my viewpoints, so you lose some Brownie points with me already. (I know for future reference that I cannot trust you to represent the viewpoints of others correctly.)

To meet you half-way, I’m sure that a good case for the latent antisemitism of the Left can be reduced to their (completely open) antizionism. And there probably is a reason for antizionism that is not ultimately based on antisemitism. (It may be based on ignorance, or religion, or a broken moral compass or a thousand other bad reasons that are not antisemitic.)

But I think there’s way more to it. I’ve met relatively few people in my life that I’d classify as antisemites. Most were Arabs, and though they would nominally be Left (in that they voted for the Left), they don’t count. Those non-Arabs I know that are antisemites where classical Leftists. I know way more antizioninists than that, mostly on the Left. I’ve never met a conservative antisemite (who wasn’t an Arab) as far as I can remember. 

But the history of antisemitism in the Left is old and known. Much like homophobia, another problem that riddled in particular European communism in the 70s.

But none of that is the point. Clearly nobody would deny that it is easy to smear the entire Left as antisemites if guilt-by-assiociation or cherry-picking are valid arguments. You can paint the Left with that brush, you can paint Israel itself with that brush, you can paint Breitbart with that brush. It is not the stuff of reasoned discourse. It is beneath me and you. Nobody here does that.

Except with respect to Breitbart, where that mode of reasoning seems to be on the table.

If Breitbart, Bannon, or Trump are antisemites, it should be easy to establish. A cursory glance at their stated politics and actions clearly establishes that they are not. That cursory glance may be mistaken, as such glances often are. I am traditionally very paranoid about antisemitism, and prone to overinterpretation of signals that may have just been antizionism or general xenophobia or hatred of medial elites, academics, or bankers. So I should be a soft target for convincing somebody, even falsely, of somebody elses’s antisemitism.

But one would need to provide better arguments than Breitbart (who is a flaming semitophile) starting Breitbart (which is openly pro-Israel and pro-Jewish) attracting alt-right icons like Milo (who is a gay Jew) and Jews like Shapiro (who is one of the most visible targets of antisemitism) and producing Bannon/Trump (who are openly pro-Jewish and pro-Israel) and immediately implement pro-Israeli policies by openly appealing to Judeo-Christian values (as a good thing, unlike this board), and utterly detest the most antisemitic people on the planet (Arab muslims), — that they are antisemites because the alt-right (which is an ill-defined body of people) also includes anti-semites. I wouldn’t accept that argument from a 10-year old. 

[The guy from the Vale]

15 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Trump's 'philosemitism' includes non-support for a two state (or maybe support for a one-state; who can tell) solution. You'd be having two fundamentally opposed tribes within the same boundaries (using some of the framing in this thread).....how is this good for Israel?

At any rate, just like global warming, it feels like the window for a two-state solution is rapidly closing. And all caused by 75000 of my fellow midwesterners.

You are too kind to Trump. He's signalling to Bibi that he won't interfere in a genocide of Palestinians, in case Netanyahu chooses to go that route..

[IheartIheartTesla]

You know who else could be considered a philo-semite? Obama.

In his own words, "You know, I think I am the closest thing to a Jew that has ever sat in this office". His thinking was shaped in large part by Jewish teachers, writers, community organizers, supporters etc. I dont think it translated to increased support for Israel, but I dont believe there was substantial difference in his policy towards Israel too compared to the past. There was just antagonism between him and 'Bibi'. The latter being condescending to the former (thinking him naive) and the former frustrated with the latter's intransigence on the two-state solution.

 

[Zorral]

Quote

To meet you half-way, I’m sure that a good case for the latent antisemitism of the Left can be reduced to their (completely open) antizionism. And there probably is a reason for antizionism that is not ultimately based on antisemitism. 

Ethnic cleansing and genocide are the reasons for anti-zionism. Also the zionists working hand in hand with the alt right religious wings that want a single state, and nothing for the Palestinians, from which to launch their own war on Islam to bring the End of Days, and all the rest of the Dominionist bs, that is without end.

 

 

[Dr. Pepper]

Puzder withdraws.

Bracing myself for how much worse the next nominee will be.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, I have a hard time believing that Bannon is antisemitic. This is a good example of the arguments that can be made in his favor; the others tend to be fairly easily dismissable.

Now, it's pretty clear that Trump doesn't particularly care and is happy to get supports from avowed anti-semites like David Duke. He's happy to get support from people like Richard Spencer, who openly favors peaceful ethnic cleansing and uses nazi iconography. Trump will do things like mention that he only wants Jews counting his money. He also favors people like Alex Jones, who have been pretty antisemitic and insane at times.

So yeah, Trump attracts Milo and Bannon - and also attracts Duke and Jones and Spencer. These aren't exactly merely bad apples. 

[Commodore]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Puzder withdraws.

Bracing myself for how much worse the next nominee will be.

• Scott Walker
• Mike Rowe
• Outsource the job to India
• Automate the job and nominate a robot

[The Anti-Targ]

1 hour ago, Happy Ent said:

 

One of the very few positive things that I can see in the Trump/Bannon-administration is their very open distaste towards Islam. I share this completely. Islam is a terrible, terrible set of ideas. In particular, it is at variance with Judeo–Christian values

Is that right?

Muhammad's promise to the Christians

Quote

“This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

...

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”

I suppose if one accepts that no Christian leader has made such promises to all Muslims, everywhere, forever then one can say Islam is at variance to Judeo-Christian values. But that is not a good look for Judaeo-Christian values, because in Islam there is an edict of eternal tolerance and protection for Christians, in Christianity there is no such edict.

What is Islam if it isn't the words of the prophet Himself? If the words of the prophet do not match the deeds of those who claim to follow him then it is not Islam that they follow.

Should we say Christianity is a terrible, terrible set of ideas because groups of Christians say it is right and proper to kill homosexuals and murder doctors who perform abortions? Were those the words of Jesus Christ?

One might even say that this promise is one of the earlier examples of guaranteeing rights to minorities. So perhaps Islam is more aligned to the UN declaration on Human Rights than people really think.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

10 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

attracting alt-right icons like Milo (who is a gay Jew)

 Near as I can tell, Milo was never really a practicing Jew (I believe his mother is Jewish) and he only started to trumpet this fact as a defense for some of his viewpoints that were called out as being anti-semitic. Kind of similar to his "I like sleeping with black men" proclamations after being labeled a racist. 

[aceluby]

34 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I don't think he even knows what a 2-state solution means...

 

 

 

Easily the most uninformed President of all time.

[Zorral]

He and his cohort's certainly anti-black and anti-Muslim, anti-Mexican, anti-woman, etc.  It's hard to believe they are leaving the Jews out of their blanket disdain, hate and contempt for everyone else. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

He and his cohort's certainly anti-black and anti-Muslim, anti-Mexican, anti-woman, etc.  It's hard to believe they are leaving the Jews out of their blanket disdain, hate and contempt for everyone else. 

Yeah, I think that's a fair take. They might not be specifically anti-semitic, but they seem to be very pro-Anglo Christian to the point that they can be fairly seen as being anti-anything else. 

[Altherion]

7 hours ago, Werthead said:

The Republicans seem to have always had a contingency plan of removing Trump if necessary and moving Pence up. The problem is that if you do that too early, especially in the first 6-12 months, it also makes the party look moronically incompetent. On the other hand, dump Trump now and getting Pence in for almost the full 4 years might also be beneficial.

If you do it too early, there will be violence. It's one thing to get rid of him after he has failed and disappointed his base and quite another to do it before he has had a chance to do anything. One of the benefits of the "America First" rhetoric is that, if push comes to shove, one can call upon well-armed American patriots for assistance against the globalist cabal (or something like that -- I am sure there is a better way to phrase it).

5 hours ago, Kalbear said:

The important thing is that people have this much power, period, and that is dangerous to a functioning democracy. If the deep state of intelligence agencies and civil servants is doing the job that congress is supposed to be doing, we may have already lost whatever vestiges of democracy the US has.

Indeed, the US intelligence agencies of the 21st century are really scary. Their data gathering and analysis capacities are beyond the wildest dreams of the KGB and other 20th century groups and oversight and control of these agencies by any kind of elected officials is low to non-existent. They can also compel people and corporations to do things for them without telling anyone and with practically no judicial restraint.

[Fez]

26 minutes ago, Commodore said:

• Scott Walker
• Mike Rowe
• Outsource the job to India
• Automate the job and nominate a robot

Depends on who gets to program the robot.

And I doubt Walker would want the job. He's got two years left on the job (and is he even term-limited?), and going from Governor of Wisconsin to US Labor Secretary seems like a pretty big step down.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, Fez said:

Depends on who gets to program the robot.

And I doubt Walker would want the job. He's got two years left on the job (and is he even term-limited?), and going from Governor of Wisconsin to US Labor Secretary seems like a pretty big step down.

Normally it would be a step down, but for Walker it might not be. Two of his major goals are advancing "Right to Work" legislation and eroding public collective bargaining rights for state and federal employees. As Labor Secretary he'd be in a very good position to try and advance those policy goals nation wide. 

[Chaircat Meow]

42 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Is that right?

Muhammad's promise to the Christians

I suppose if one accepts that no Christian leader has made such promises to all Muslims, everywhere, forever then one can say Islam is at variance to Judeo-Christian values. But that is not a good look for Judaeo-Christian values, because in Islam there is an edict of eternal tolerance and protection for Christians, in Christianity there is no such edict.

What is Islam if it isn't the words of the prophet Himself? If the words of the prophet do not match the deeds of those who claim to follow him then it is not Islam that they follow.

Should we say Christianity is a terrible, terrible set of ideas because groups of Christians say it is right and proper to kill homosexuals and murder doctors who perform abortions? Were those the words of Jesus Christ?

One might even say that this promise is one of the earlier examples of guaranteeing rights to minorities. So perhaps Islam is more aligned to the UN declaration on Human Rights than people really think.

 

Maybe cite your source. You may lead some to believe this comes from the Koran or something, when it does not. It is a grant of protection to certain Christians issued at a time when Muslim armies were waging a vast war of conquest against the Christian/Roman Empire.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Happy Ent said:

No. And no, I don’t consider myself to be woefully uninformed, but am alway happy to learn more. However, by your standards of argumentation I seem to be some kind of expert.

Funny.

1 hour ago, Happy Ent said:

 

Is the whole case for the perceived antisemitism of Breitbart and Bannon really made in terms of guilt-by-association and obviously malicious misrepresentations? Is that really all we have? Who would ever take such an argument seriously?

 

It's not guilt by association. It's guilt by admission. Idk if Bannon is personally antisemitic or not, but he is quite comfortable with using antisemitism to advance his goal, which might arguably be worse.

Also, how is it a malicious misrepresentation to quote what these people said? It's not like we're reading tea leaves here, they came out and openly said it.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 hours ago, Mudguard said:

Based on this timeline, besides making clear that Flynn's been lying for months, it seem like Pence didn't know that Flynn lied to him until Feb. 9, even though the White House was notified on Jan. 26.  Some people here were speculating earlier that Trump would have no interest in governing at the Pence would be the person running the show.  I think this makes it clear that Trump is 100% in charge and that Pence isn't even among the inner circle.

Yep. Despite many early beliefs that Pence would run the government from the shadows, it seems clear now that he has a very minimal role in the Administration. I've read and heard various reporting that he's been entirely phased out on national security and foreign affairs, and that his only real role at the moment is to act as a go-between the WH and the Congress. The people who are gaining a lot of power and influence on Trump's team seem to largely be Bannon, Kushner and Miller, and to a lesser but still notable extent, Mattis.