US Politics: Opening Pandora's Box

[HoodedCrow]

I dislike Trump. I cannot think well of his supporters?

[OldGimletEye]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/02/15/austerity-was-a-bigger-disaster-than-we-thought/

Quote

We now take a break from your regularly scheduled scandals to bring you some not-so-breaking news: austerity was as big a disaster as its biggest critics said it was.

That, at least, is what economists Christopher House and Linda Tesar of the University of Michigan and Christïan Proebsting of the École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne found when they looked at Europe's budget-cutting experience the last eight years. It turns out that cutting spending right after the worst crisis in 80 years only led to a lower gross domestic product and, in the most extreme cases, higher debt-to-GDP ratios. That's right: trying to reduce debt levels sometimes increased debt burdens.

At this time, I'd like to give Alberto Alesina, Swabian Housewives, and the Republican Party a big round of applause.

Good one! Good one! You did a bang up job there!!

[Dr. Pepper]

8 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

I dislike Trump. I cannot think well of his supporters?

Is that meant to be a question?

I take the approach that all of his supporters and voters are terrible people.  

[Jaxom 1974]

Can the Resistance in Florida put together a large enough protest by the "campaign rally"?

[Altherion]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Is that meant to be a question?

I take the approach that all of his supporters and voters are terrible people.

You must live in a very sad world wherein nearly half of the country's population consists of terrible people. I don't think either Trump's opponents or his supporters are uniformly or even overwhelmingly bad -- for the most part, they are good people who were hooked by one or the other side of an intense propaganda war that the population is being subjected to right now.

[Fragile Bird]

3 minutes ago, Altherion said:

You must live in a very sad world wherein nearly half of the country's population consists of terrible people. I don't think either Trump's opponents or his supporters are uniformly or even overwhelmingly bad -- for the most part, they are good people who were hooked by one or the other side of an intense propaganda war that the population is being subjected to right now.

So....that's what happened to you.   

[Dr. Pepper]

4 minutes ago, Altherion said:

You must live in a very sad world wherein nearly half of the country's population consists of terrible people. I don't think either Trump's opponents or his supporters are uniformly or even overwhelmingly bad -- for the most part, they are good people who were hooked by one or the other side of an intense propaganda war that the population is being subjected to right now.

Any world in which a person like Trump is elected is a very sad world.  So yeah, I live in a sad world.  So do you, but you're also a contributing cause of the sadness.  

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Altherion said:

You must live in a very sad world wherein nearly half of the country's population consists of terrible people. I don't think either Trump's opponents or his supporters are uniformly or even overwhelmingly bad -- for the most part, they are good people who were hooked by one or the other side of an intense propaganda war that the population is being subjected to right now.

Given my background and my demographic, let's just say I know more Trump supporters than the law should allow. 

Not everyone I know that is, is necessarily a bad person. But, I would say that most, if not all the ones I know are very badly misinformed with regard to,to, - well just about everything.

[OldGimletEye]

Also, I hate to come off as elitist or whatever. But, some of the Trump supporters I know are not stupid. They are perfectly capable of comprehending shit, if they bothered to actually find stuff out. But, they don't.

And I find that extremely annoying. Like make a frickin effort dude.

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, MerenthaClone said:

This could very easily be Pence positioning himself as the "adult in the room" once everything falls apart for the Trump admin.  

Pence as POTUS is a really bad deal, different than Orange Shit Thing bad, but still bad.  Here's a post of mine from a previous US Politics thread that discusses some of his record as Gov of Indiana: 

Quote

 

I don't know about Pence's religion other than he's very conservative in his religion.  His record as gov of Indiana is available and could offer some insight.

Pence made national headlines in early 2015 when he signed into law the “Religious Freedom Restoration Act,”  - See more at: http://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/mike-pence-governor-indiana-record-meteoric-rise-controversial-political-past#sthash.EiGn4nuG.dpuf   Of course, this is a terrible law aimed at hurting the LBGT+ communities

also; Pence raised eyebrows once more in 2015 after The Indianapolis Star discovered his intentions to create a news bureau — called “JustIN” — overseen by his administration, and to hire a “managing editor” to assist in the production of “news stories.”   Despite quickly abandoning the plan, Pence’s project set the media world ablaze, and drew comparisons to government-backed news outlets in communist countries.- See more at: http://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/mike-pence-governor-indiana-record-meteoric-rise-controversial-political-past#sthash.EiGn4nuG.dpuf

moar;  In the second half of his term, he caught flack for his efforts to stop the resettlement of Syrian refugees in Indiana (which were eventually rebuffed by two separate federal judges), for his support for legislation that limited abortions, and for attempting to curb the power of his state’s publicly elected superintendent of public instruction, Democrat Glenda Ritz. - See more at: http://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/mike-pence-governor-indiana-record-meteoric-rise-controversial-political-past#sthash.EiGn4nuG.dpuf 

plus this;  He also helped the state repeal national education standards called Common Core, which excited his party, but was eventually seen as a letdown when he replaced them with nearly identical standards. - See more at: http://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/mike-pence-governor-indiana-record-meteoric-rise-controversial-political-past#sthash.EiGn4nuG.dpuf

this bit of horrorshow from Snopes;  The law, which was passed by the Republican-heavy state legislature, does require that aborted or miscarried fetuses be buried or cremated. It also requires that women involved in these cases be given the chance to decide how this is carried out. The measure also bans women from donating the material toward medical research. Pence said when he signed HEA 1337 into law that it would "ensure the dignified final treatment of the unborn." However, it was quickly challenged in court by the American Civil Liberties Union and Planned Parenthood of Indiana. On 30 June 2016, U.S. District Judge Tanya Walton Pratt suspended the law a day before it was slated to take effect.

from BillMoyers.com  :  Unlike the formerly pro-choice Trump, Pence, an evangelical Christian, has long been against abortion rights. This past March, Gov. Pence signed a measure “prohibiting women from obtaining an abortion because of the race, gender, or disability of the fetus.” Indiana is the second state in the nation to implement such laws. While in Washington, Pence pushed for defunding Planned Parenthood and as governor slashed funding of clinics that provided STD testing, which led to an outbreak of HIV, Mother Jones reports.

and on the ACA, well......Pence pushed the program in a more conservative direction than any other governor who implemented Medicaid expansion, making Indiana a model for other red states — while also upsetting many conservatives who saw the move as a betrayal.

“Medicaid expansion proponents are satisfied with covering a vulnerable population with a program that is so deeply flawed. But I’m not,” Pence said in a May 2014 speech unveiling his plan at the conservative American Enterprise Institute. “Fortunately, Hoosiers have found a better way.”

Indiana’s rules for Medicaid expansion borrowed on ideas circulating in conservative policy realms for years. Indiana is the only state that is allowed to kick some low-income adults off their Medicaid coverage for six months if they don't pay premiums, and the program is based around health savings accounts favored by conservative health wonks.

 

Yeah, he's a peach

[LongRider]

50 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/02/15/austerity-was-a-bigger-disaster-than-we-thought/

At this time, I'd like to give Alberto Alesina, Swabian Housewives, and the Republican Party a big round of applause.

Good one! Good one! You did a bang up job there!!

Lets not forget the extreme high levels of unemployment, suicides and divorce.  And that was just in Greece. 

[LongRider]

35 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

So....that's what happened to you.   

+1

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Nasty LongRider said:

Yeah, he's a peach

Yeah, Pence is a nitwit too. Maybe he is just a tiny bit better than Trump. But, that's not sayin a lot, obviously.

You know, one thing here is: It's not like everything was going well in Republican land and then Trump just randomly appeared and fuck it all up. I'd say, Trump isn't the disease here, but only a symptom. Like maybe a very serious symptom. They type of symptom that might make you go screeching and running to get into the emergency room or whatever. But he isn't the main disease here.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Nasty LongRider said:

Lets not forget the extreme high levels of unemployment, suicides and divorce.  And that was just in Greece. 

Greece was bad all right. But for me, the most tragic disaster was probably Spain. It had plenty of fiscal space to act. The enforced austerity and unemployment there was totally unnecessary. 

[LongRider]

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

Greece was bad all right. But for me, the most tragic disaster was probably Spain. It had plenty of fiscal space to act. The enforced austerity and unemployment there was totally unnecessary. 

Gebus, austerity such cruelty, really, it's just fucking cruel.

[Dr. Pepper]

19 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Also, I hate to come off as elitist or whatever. But, some of the Trump supporters I know are not stupid. They are perfectly capable of comprehending shit, if they bothered to actually find stuff out. But, they don't.

And I find that extremely annoying. Like make a frickin effort dude.

I find that the ones who are informed tend to be way worse than those who aren't.  They are the ones who make an educated decision to fuck over everyone else because their hate runs that deep.  Or worse, they are religious fanatics who just want some sort of apocalyptic future in order to see Jesus and other zombies.  

 

[The Anti-Targ]

3 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Maybe cite your source. You may lead some to believe this comes from the Koran or something, when it does not. It is a grant of protection to certain Christians issued at a time when Muslim armies were waging a vast war of conquest against the Christian/Roman Empire.

Not true. There was no vast war of empire building in Muhammad's lifetime, at the time of Muhammad's death Islam had not spread beyond the Arabian Peninsula. Ergo a document issued by Muhammad cannot have been issued while Muslims were engaging in empire building through conquest. And the document is addressed to all Christians [from another translation] "in the East and West, the far and near, the Arabs and foreigners, the known and the unknown."

The document is the Ashtiname of Muhammad. It's not a long read. 

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Dr. Pepper said:

I find that the ones who are informed tend to be way worse than those who aren't.  They are the ones who make an educated decision to fuck over everyone else because their hate runs that deep.  Or worse, they are religious fanatics who just want some sort of apocalyptic future in order to see Jesus and other zombies.  

 

I agree that the ones that tend to follow the news the most are usually way worse. But, they are very selective in the news and events they follow. Most of them have some pretty big gaps in their knowledge. Also, I agree that many of them usually have some bullshit grievance.

[Altherion]

46 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

So....that's what happened to you.   

Nobody is immune to propaganda, but I don't think I feel as strongly about Trump as most people on this board.

47 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Any world in which a person like Trump is elected is a very sad world.  So yeah, I live in a sad world.  So do you, but you're also a contributing cause of the sadness.

People wanted "hope and change" and now we finally have a chance at it. If it doesn't work out, someone else will probably come along.

38 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Given my background and my demographic, let's just say I know more Trump supporters than the law should allow. 

Not everyone I know that is, is necessarily a bad person. But, I would say that most, if not all the ones I know are very badly misinformed with regard to,to, - well just about everything.

33 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Also, I hate to come off as elitist or whatever. But, some of the Trump supporters I know are not stupid. They are perfectly capable of comprehending shit, if they bothered to actually find stuff out. But, they don't.

And I find that extremely annoying. Like make a frickin effort dude.

There is a very high probability that they feel exactly the same way about you. This is what I mean by a propaganda war: there are dueling narratives which conflict with each other on a variety of issues and each of them comes with a complete set of facts and sources of varying degrees of validity and credibility. People who are strongly drawn to one of them look at people who are drawn to the other and wonder how in the world somebody who is smart can fail to understand something so simple. Sadly, simply understanding that there is a propaganda war does not make it easier to convince anyone or even figure out the truth for oneself (the latter requires a considerable amount of resources).

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Altherion said:

There is a very high probability that they feel exactly the same way about you. This is what I mean by a propaganda war: there are dueling narratives which conflict with each other on a variety of issues and each of them comes with a complete set of facts and sources of varying degrees of validity and credibility. People who are strongly drawn to one of them look at people who are drawn to the other and wonder how in the world somebody who is smart can fail to understand something so simple. Sadly, simply understanding that there is a propaganda war does not make it easier to convince anyone or even figure out the truth for oneself (the latter requires a considerable amount of resources).

Not really.

Many of the people I know voted for Trump for economic reasons. Hardly any of them really have a fuckin clue to what they are talking about. Like seriously, just no. They are often same people that believed the CRA caused the financial crises, believed that if Obama did it like "Ronnie did it" everything would have been awesome, bought into Republican "buy insurance across state lines" bull and other spectacular nonsense. 

Others, just hated Hillary, and were willing to buy all that bullshit about her emails and Bengazi.

Others, I know are life long Republicans and we're the ones that went around shouting from the rooftops about the "Bush Boom". Or thought Bush did bang up job in Iraq.

Sorry, but just no.