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Advanced Crackpottery 4 - Daario Naharis: International Man of Mystery


Lady Blizzardborn

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43 minutes ago, Asshai Backwards said:

Thanks!  I'm sort of surprised to have contributed something.  I keep thinking the Dunk and Egg tales hold all the answers, but if they do, they are in the form of more riddles.

Might the Tyroshi armorer have something to do with the ornately wrought sword hilts Daario wields?  Maybe, like Ice, Blackfyre has been reforged, into two.  If this were the case, than we would finally have found a real Chekov's Gun, and they are hanging over Dany's bed.

I tried to answer my own question about the name.  Nothing super ah-ha, but, there have been a lot of Targs with DA----names.  With the way Martin plays with names, I'm still wondering.  Daarion Aharis / Daeron Jaharis.

Question:  Does the description of Daario returning that first evening with a bag of heads not stand out?  It always has to me.  Why belabor the description of salt-stained boots?  Everyone arrives by sea in Slavers Bay.  The notable descriptive exception would be if you arrived with boots stained with the dirt of the Doomed Lands or whatever they are called.  Are his boots extra notable?  Do they denote a longer journey to get their, or a lifetime on the sea?  Probably just a rabbit-hole.

As to the salt stained boots, perhaps the storyteller was giving us the impression that his clothes were well worn. Upon closer inspection, didn't Daenerys note that his clothing was a bit stained and frayed? 

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On 3/1/2017 at 5:54 PM, Isobel Harper said:

A bird, a beast, and gold and silver.  Great stone beast taking wing, breathing shadow fire?  Is the gold and silver an allusion to Targaryens/Valyrians?

I'm not sure I'd put Daario in the place of the great stone beast. He doesn't really have any stone symbolism that I've noticed. 

Nice catch on the possible gold/silver = Valyrian blood.

10 hours ago, Asshai Backwards said:

Thanks!  I'm sort of surprised to have contributed something.  I keep thinking the Dunk and Egg tales hold all the answers, but if they do, they are in the form of more riddles.

Might the Tyroshi armorer have something to do with the ornately wrought sword hilts Daario wields?  Maybe, like Ice, Blackfyre has been reforged, into two.  If this were the case, than we would finally have found a real Chekov's Gun, and they are hanging over Dany's bed.

I tried to answer my own question about the name.  Nothing super ah-ha, but, there have been a lot of Targs with DA----names.  With the way Martin plays with names, I'm still wondering.  Daarion Aharis / Daeron Jaharis.

Question:  Does the description of Daario returning that first evening with a bag of heads not stand out?  It always has to me.  Why belabor the description of salt-stained boots?  Everyone arrives by sea in Slavers Bay.  The notable descriptive exception would be if you arrived with boots stained with the dirt of the Doomed Lands or whatever they are called.  Are his boots extra notable?  Do they denote a longer journey to get their, or a lifetime on the sea?  Probably just a rabbit-hole.

You're welcome. I don't think D&E have all the answers, but definitely some extra clues for us. 

I hadn't thought of Blackfyre being melted down. Let me check something... Daario's weapons are not made of Valyrian Steel so they can't be Blackfyre. That would have been awesome though! I think you may have something with the hilts being a Tyroshi kind of thing though. Perhaps even fashioned by a descendant of the same armorer who was at Whitewalls that day. 

I think the GC have Blackfyre, and Daario will not be pleased to see Aegon wielding what by rights should be his sword (according to him). 

I would think Daario's name is probably from the non-Targ side, unless he's altered his name to keep people from knowing who he is. Daerion perhaps? I'm going to crack up laughing if it turns out his real name is Daemon. I think Naharis was simply his father's surname.

Given that he's wearing the same clothes when he comes back with the heads as he was before, my take has been two-fold: despite his love of finery and showing off he's not afraid to get his hands dirty and ruin clothes if necessary to get the job done; and he can afford to soil fine clothes as often as he likes because he can afford to replace them. 

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50 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

I would think Daario's name is probably from the non-Targ side, unless he's altered his name to keep people from knowing who he is. Daerion perhaps? I'm going to crack up laughing if it turns out his real name is Daemon. I think Naharis was simply his father's surname.

Given that he's wearing the same clothes when he comes back with the heads as he was before, my take has been two-fold: despite his love of finery and showing off he's not afraid to get his hands dirty and ruin clothes if necessary to get the job done; and he can afford to soil fine clothes as often as he likes because he can afford to replace them. 

..Of course, since I've been looking at Daario from the paternal angle (Oberyn),;) I think Naharis is his Blackfyre mother's surname..

I'm totally sold on his Blackfyre maternal line.  

But about the worn clothes.. I agree with the bold, above, and secondarily, had toyed with the idea that he's been cut off from his source of wealth, but discarded that, because, well, he can always plunder..

Because of talking about bloodlines on my thread ... I suddenly see another secondary interpretation for that description, which I'll post over there,and share here only if you don't think it would be a distraction.

 

 

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18 hours ago, bemused said:

..Of course, since I've been looking at Daario from the paternal angle (Oberyn),;) I think Naharis is his Blackfyre mother's surname..

I'm totally sold on his Blackfyre maternal line.  

But about the worn clothes.. I agree with the bold, above, and secondarily, had toyed with the idea that he's been cut off from his source of wealth, but discarded that, because, well, he can always plunder..

Because of talking about bloodlines on my thread ... I suddenly see another secondary interpretation for that description, which I'll post over there,and share here only if you don't think it would be a distraction.

Since we have zero information on Essos and bastard's surnames (that I recall) it's quite possible that you're right.

Let me know when you've got that posted in your thread. I'm really curious what you've found.

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  • 3 weeks later...
5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Lady Blizzardborn I forget, have you taken into account the fact that Daario is apparently illiterate? 

I have included that. It's back in the second post. To quote myself...

Quote

 

Where did this guy, who implies to Barristan that he cannot read or write, learn to speak like a poet? Not that it can’t be done, but most of the sellswords we’ve seen are about a million miles from being as smooth as Daario is with words.

Generally, such speech and manners belong to the noble class, yet we’ve been given no background on this guy.

 

I don't believe I used the exact quote where Barristan says Daario said he'll write his reports in blood of Missandei will tell him how to form the letters. I think there's room for doubt about whether he actually is illiterate. The ability to convincingly pretend illiteracy could be extremely valuable. 

On the other hand, Daario being unable to read and write isn't necessarily a deal-breaker anyway. Who knows what hard times the Blackfyre descendants have fallen upon in recent years? Daario's choosing to make his living as a sellsword could tell us either that he had no better prospects, or he really likes fighting. Could be either. I suppose it's possible that he had other options, but I have trouble believing he would have given them up to become the kind of sellsword he is...the kind who don't usually make it to old age. The only way I see Daario having a privileged background and still choosing sellswording is if he has or is part of a grand master plan which we have yet to see.

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  • 3 months later...

Haven't read all of the discussion yet, but I completely agree with you...fAegon isn't the Blackfyre imo, it's Daario Naharis. The Tyroshi connection for House Blackfyre imo should not be overlooked or understatated, just because we know little of Tyrosh and never been there.

We know Daemon Blackfyre's children were fathered on the daughter of an Archon of Tyrosh (wealthiest noblest amongst the Tyroshi families). And after the battle at Redgrass Field in 196 AC, Rohanna and her son-in-law-to-be Bittersteel flee with Daemon's surviving children (at least 7) to Tyrosh. Daemon II was living in Tyrosh in 211 AC, his younger brother Haegon was crowned in Tyrosh in 219 AC (after Daemon II died during his hostage in KL). Haegon dies in 219 AC in a battle in Westeros during the 3rd Rebellion. After escaping the boat to Eastwatch Bittersteel crowns Haegon's ELDEST son Daemon III, again in Tyrosh. Daemon III and Bittersteel don't make a move for the IT until 236 AC, but we do know that Haegon's younger brother Aenys Blackfyre tried to make a claim (the sneak tried to get ahead of his crowned nephew), and he wrote from Tyrosh. As far as 233 AC we have confirmation that Daemon's children live and thrive and basically have families in Tyrosh. Except for Daemon II (he's heavily hinted to be gay), most of the younger brothers would have ended up marrying noble Tyroshi daughters. Haegon certainly did. Their sisters would have married into Tyroshi noble families (for the dowries, ties, etc), except for Daemon's eldest daughter Calla who married Bittersteel. But her children would have married into noble families.

The likeliest Blackfyre candidate through the female line isn't the child of a bedslave from Lys, but a Tyroshi of a noble family with eyes that may appear purple in certain circumstances.

Unlike what people claim about the Free Cities, Vayrian looks are not common or frequent at all. That's only true for Lys. It's not true for Tyrosh, if you look into the origin of Tyrosh: starts as a military outpost, then draws merchant adventurers because of the discovered "snails". So, the people living there were soldiers and merchants, not Valyrian nobility, let alone dragonlord families. In fact, the Free Cities are called Free Cities, because they governed themselves and weren't governed by Valyrian dragonlords, even before the Doom. Sure, you might have a Valyrian looking soldier and merchant, but most of them would likely have a lot of forign blood mixed into them and not look Valyrian at all. The fact that they have Tyroshi nobility should not be confused with Valyrian nobility, especially when they're self-governing.

The dyes of  the snails seem to tell a Tyroshi story of blood. The snails produce naturally a dark red dye (like dried blood from wounds, aka soldier blood). By varying the diet of the snails the sea snail glands also could naturally secret scarlet (bright common blood, like merchant blood) and indigo (deep blue, hovering to purple, but not exactly purple... and thus "blue blood"). And then through mixing the dyes and chemical manipulation they later managed to make dyes of every color of the rainbow, including purple. So, first you've got soldier blood, then you have commoner blood, followed by nobility (but not purple) and then through manipulation the city acquires purple blood... that is House Blackfyre. 

BTW, for analogues quotes from Daario with certain dragons of the past important for House Blackfyre:

  • Calla Blackfyre married Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers. Bittersteel is described as angry, choleric, quick to anger. He had dark hair, but he had purple eyes.
  • We should not forget that Daemon I Blackfyre is the son of Aegon IV who claimed to have bedded 900 women in his life, and his mother was Daena the Defiant. How does Daario phrase it again when he talks of how many women he bedded?
  • While the whole story was likely blwon-up and over-romanticised, Daemon I Blackfyre was said to rebel and angry over the first Daenerys being wed to the Prince of Dorne, Maron Martell, wait for it "for peace". And then we have Daario who's Dany's lover, wants her to marry him clearly, but she marries a guy like Hizdar "for peace" oh and some frog faced boy shows up and offers marriage to her, and turns out to be a Martell. And Daario is livid over it. 
  • Viserys Plumm was not actually fathered by Lord Plumm, but Aegon IV on Daena's youngest sister. Viserys Plumm and Daemon Blackfyre were the closest related half-brothers possible: same father, their mothers were sisters. So, a betrayal by a Plumm would sting even worse, if there are that few "dragons" left in Planetos.

So, yeah... Daario has a second name. Even in Braavos it means you come from a wealthy family and noble. If you're not noble stock, you don't get a second name. He dresses rich, talks rich, etc. And he starts out "blue", like "blue blood". Then he goes "purple", but because Hizdar's family is into purple, Dany asks him to dye blue again. To me, Daario is noble born, and Tyroshi noble born in particular.

I'm totally on board with this theory. And I totally agree, it doesn't alter his identity. Daario Naharis is still Daario Naharis. It just means that his grandmother or great-grandmother or great-great-grandmother was a Blackfyre. And then Daario is a dragon in the same way Ben Plumm is.

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28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As far as 233 AC we have confirmation that Daemon's children live and thrive and basically have families in Tyrosh.

I missed that confirmation. Would you please kindly point it out for me? Thanks. 

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7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I missed that confirmation. Would you please kindly point it out for me? Thanks. 

233 AC: "When the Great Council had first been announced, Aenys had written from exile in Tyrosh, putting forward his case in the hope that his words might win him the Iron Throne that his forebears had thrice failed to win with their swords." (tWoIaF, The Targaryen Kings: Maekar I)

119 AC: "Before the year was out, [Bittersteel] crowned Haegon's eldest son as King Daemon III Blackfyre in Tyrosh, and resumed his plotting against the king who had spared him. (tWoIaF, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys I)

I'll have an entire essay on House Blackfyre hopefully finished by the end of the weekend. I've gathered all the quotes and evidence and stories (including what happens politically in Westeros) to present an in depth picture about Bittersteel and House Blackfyre. Yes, it includes speculation and proposals (in italic, while the facts are not italicised), but in some cases Yandel speculates wrongly in the World Book (such as Bittersteel not backgin Daemon II. Gormy Peake went behind Bittersteel's back while he was fighting for the Second Sons in the family's interest. Bittersteel wasn't with Daemon II, because he wasn't even in Tyrosh at the time.). And I'm doing it, so that people have a compiled essay about the historical Blackfyres on hand to check their Blackfyre theories with.

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41 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

233 AC: "When the Great Council had first been announced, Aenys had written from exile in Tyrosh, putting forward his case in the hope that his words might win him the Iron Throne that his forebears had thrice failed to win with their swords." (tWoIaF, The Targaryen Kings: Maekar I)

119 AC: "Before the year was out, [Bittersteel] crowned Haegon's eldest son as King Daemon III Blackfyre in Tyrosh, and resumed his plotting against the king who had spared him. (tWoIaF, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys I)

I'll have an entire essay on House Blackfyre hopefully finished by the end of the weekend. I've gathered all the quotes and evidence and stories (including what happens politically in Westeros) to present an in depth picture about Bittersteel and House Blackfyre. Yes, it includes speculation and proposals (in italic, while the facts are not italicised), but in some cases Yandel speculates wrongly in the World Book (such as Bittersteel not backgin Daemon II. Gormy Peake went behind Bittersteel's back while he was fighting for the Second Sons in the family's interest. Bittersteel wasn't with Daemon II, because he wasn't even in Tyrosh at the time.). And I'm doing it, so that people have a compiled essay about the historical Blackfyres on hand to check their Blackfyre theories with.

I am fascinated by all things Blackfyre, but I try to be very careful when speculating, making assumptions, and reaching conclusions as to The Blackfyre. I just do not see how the passages you quoted confirm that Daemon's children lived and thrived and basically had families in Tyrosh. All those passages confirm is that Aenys lived in exile in Tyrosh, and that Haegon had a son called Daemon born in wedlock who was crowned in Tyrosh by Bittersteel as Daemon III. Please understand that I do not dispute your conclusions. I tend to agree with them. I am just pointing out that you are reaching those conclusions, at least in part, by speculation. Have you had a chance to peruse this thread? You might find it of some interest... or not. 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am fascinated by all things Blackfyre, but I try to be very careful when speculating, making assumptions, and reaching conclusions as to The Blackfyre. I just do not see how the passages you quoted confirm that Daemon's children lived and thrived and basically had families in Tyrosh. All those passages confirm is that Aenys lived in exile in Tyrosh, and that Haegon had a son called Daemon born in wedlock who was crowned in Tyrosh by Bittersteel as Daemon III. Please understand that I do not dispute your conclusions. I tend to agree with them. I am just pointing out that you are reaching those conclusions, at least in part, by speculation. Have you had a chance to peruse this thread? You might find it of some interest... or not. 

Daemon II, Haegon, his son, and Aenys, all living and growing up in Tyrosh. These are 3 brothers and a 2nd generation. Rohanne of Tyrosh being the daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh. Them fleeing to Tyrosh. So, it's Tyrosh over and over from 196 AC until 233 AC confirmed. Archons are men of the noblest and wealthiest families in Tyrosh. They are his grandchildren. The fact that Yandel calls them "exiles" is in reference to Westeros, but certainly they lived as an established family in Tyrosh for at least 37 years. And Haegon having at least two sons is "thriving and having families in Tyrosh".

Yes, I'm filling in the gaps with speculation, beyond that. 

Maelys Blackfyre certainly fucked things up. I propose in my essay that Maelys and his parasite twin are the two youngest sons of Daemon I, and my argument is partly based on the George approved illustration of Maelys in his fight against Selmy in 260 AC. Maelys is far from a young man. That's a man over his 50s. Bloodraven's comment in the Mystery Knight in 211 AC about the Blackfyre family in Tyrosh (younger brothers, sisters) for why he doesn't kill Daemon II but keeping him as a hostage is used to conclude that Daemon II had no children, and at the time neither his younger brothers (yet). So, we have no 2nd generation of male Blackfyres that could be over 50 on that illustration. Furthermore we have symbolic references that Maelys was a "usurping" character - in the womb and when he killed his cousin the last Daemon Blackfyre. While this last Daemon Blackfyre was either a grandson of Haegon (likeliest) or Aenys, he'd still be a cousin to one of the unnamed sons of Daemon. George does not seem to make the distinction that identical twins is not influenced by a mother's genetics as fraternal twins are. But he has Rohanne have twins first (both male), and then conveniently leaves out the name of the last two sons (it cannot be ruled out they're twins). JonCon refers to Maelys's parasite twin as "his twin brother", even though the parasite twin would have been dead already in the womb. Anyhow, Maelys was not loyal to the rest of his house and had no problem tearing the head off his cousin, aka "the head of the family".

Maelys we know caused shit in Tyrosh: he helped to attack and sack Tyrosh and handed it to the ambitious wealthy merchant (prince?) Alequo Adaris. But since Maelys was an enemy to his own family, and his nickname suggests he became an outcast of House Blackfyre. And it would not necessarily affect granddaughters of Daemon negatively, certainly not those who aren't called Blackfyre. If there was a purge, it seems to me the purge was done by Maelys during the sack, rather than after.

Maelys was a rogue, a kinslayer, for his own selfish desires, usurping command over GC and thus stealing the GC. For Daario as Blackfyre theories (ot bring it back on topic) this would explain why Daario - if a Blackfyre descendant - is not with the GC. The GC and Maelys betrayed House Blackfyre, though they were founded for them. If Maelys even had GC hold a purge during the sack of Tyrosh amongst the descendants of the female line, he'd even want less to do with the GC. It's only 41 years ago (in the present aSoIaF timeline) since the Band of Nine sacked Tyrosh. It's only 35 years ago that Alequo Adaris the Tyrant was kicked off and the archon reinstalled.

Another indication that House blackfyre was a political threat for Westeros while they were residents in Tyrosh is Kiera of Tyrosh. Kiera has not been named in the books, but the World Book's lineage names her, first as wife to Valarr and then as wife to Daeron the Drunken. We know that Baelor Breakspear was born in 170 AC (same year as Daemon was born). The earliest year that Baelor would have been married is 183 AC. However, check out his wife - Jenna Dondarrion. House Dondarrion is Blackhaven, a Marcher lord House in the Dornish Marshes. It's also the house where Baelor recovered from his snake bites for half a year. If Baelor Breakspear married Jenna in 183 AC that would have been a marriage arranged by Aegon IV. I find it hard to believe that he would have wedded the half-dornish grandson he despised (and why he imo gave the sword Blackfyre to Daemon, to keep it out of Dornish hands) to House Dondarrion with its friendly ties to Baelor the Blessed. It seems far more likely that was arranged by Daeron II, likely as a prelude to the marriage of Daenerys to Maron Martell: a Targ princess for Dorne, a Targ Crown Prince for the Marcher lords, but one on the peace agenda, rather than the war agenda. So, earliest marriage date for Baelor Breakspear to Jenna becomes 184 AC, with Valarr being born at the earliest in 184 AC. The earliest year Valarr could marry this Kiera of Tyrosh is 197 AC, the year AFTER the 1st rebellion, and when Rohanne fled back to her father with her children. Even if I'm wrong about 184 Ac, and it was indeed Aegon IV who wed Baelor to Jenna, we're still looking at the year of the rebellion at the earliest that somehow house Targaryen reached out to Tyrosh for a daughter of a noble family in Tyrosh to wed Valarr, the 2Nd in line heir to the IT.

But Valarr dies in 209 of the Great Spring Sickness, as does Daeron II and Valarr's brother. But does Kiera return to Tyrosh? No. Instead she's married to Daeron the Drunken, despite having already proven to have difficulty birthing heirs (!!!!!!!). We don't know when she was wedded to Dearon, but we do know she has a daughter in 222 AC, a year after Aerys I died and Maekar I became king. So, was it Maekar who had her wed to Daeron after all the time? Or was she married to Daeron shortly after Valarr's death. If she was married to Daeron after Maekar became king, was she some officious hostage for the Targs to ensure that House Blackfyre would never acquire full Tyroshi political support?

But after Daeron died and Maekar dies in 233 AC, they easily skip over Vaella, Kiera's daughter. Nor does Bloodraven fear the repercussions for killing a son of Rohanne (or grandson/cousin to one of the wealthiest and noblest families in Tyrosh) as he did with Daemon II. Granted, Aenys was a sneaky upjumper like Renly trying to get ahead of his already crowned nephew Daemon III. At least Bittersteel and the others had honor and loyalty to their house, if we consider the possibility they trubly believed that Daeron II was not Aegon IV's son (a possibility that Yandel most notedly does not speculate on, as the reason what made Daemon I finally decide to rebel after all... for logical reasons: if Daeron II was NOT Aegon IV's son, then not even Robert Baratheon has Targ king's blood in his veins. The whole line from Dearon II on would be a fraudulent bloodline as much as Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are). Whatever made the Targs have their own Tyroshi noblewoman marry crown princes seems to at least have waned by 233 AC. So there's some speculative indication that House Blackfyre's power base is waning in Tyrosh by 233 AC. And it may just be that Rohanne's father is dead and that Rohanne's family isn't the top dog family in Tyrosh anymore.

Finally we get the cryptic mention that Bittersteel died in the Disputed lands in a "significant" war between Tyrosh and Myr. And we don't know what side Bittersteel and the GC fought on. If Myr hired the GC and Bittersteel fought against Tyrosh, then that would have been a problem at least for the male Blackfyres in Tyrosh.

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Oh are we carrying on excellent.

@sweetsunray I have one issue with current Tyroshi being associated with the Blackfyres. After Maelys and the Golden Company helped conquer Tyrosh with the Band of Nine I doubt any remaining members of that family would be permitted to stay after the Tyroshi took it back several years later.

I also have my own wacky theory on Daario's identity from earlier in this thread (I think, its been awhile) and would love your feedback on it.

I am looking forward to your essay on the Blackfyre's.

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am fascinated by all things Blackfyre, but I try to be very careful when speculating, making assumptions, and reaching conclusions as to The Blackfyre. I just do not see how the passages you quoted confirm that Daemon's children lived and thrived and basically had families in Tyrosh. All those passages confirm is that Aenys lived in exile in Tyrosh, and that Haegon had a son called Daemon born in wedlock who was crowned in Tyrosh by Bittersteel as Daemon III. Please understand that I do not dispute your conclusions. I tend to agree with them. I am just pointing out that you are reaching those conclusions, at least in part, by speculation. Have you had a chance to peruse this thread? You might find it of some interest... or not. 

Exactly there are so many threads that could lead so many places. 

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9 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

After Maelys and the Golden Company helped conquer Tyrosh with the Band of Nine I doubt any remaining members of that family would be permitted to stay after the Tyroshi took it back several years later.

Well, as I said, Maelys was clearly an enemy and kinslayer of his own family, possibly even possibly his sisters, nieces, 2nd cousins, etc... I find it quite suspicuous that this kinslayer first sacks Tyrosh, and then aims for the Stepstones to prepare for an invasion of Westeros. That sounds like a possible purge covered up by an attack. And if that's the case, why would they hate descendants that likely were hunted and targeted the most during the sack.

Basically what you're saying is that uncles and grandfathers or cousins would have sent their own kin away, just because their mother was a Blackfyre or descendant of a Blackfyre?

I'll check out your theory. And I have @Lost Melnibonean's thread open to check for references.

Mind you, I start my essay with Aegon IV's birth. A section is a prelude, but putting it all chronologically together (instead of per Targ king) lays out a clear picture of what prompted Aegon IV to turn against his son and first grandson. Getting Daena preggers was a big personal FU to Baelor by Aegon, as there are quite a lot of indications that his diplomatic mission to Braavos was practically an exile without an actual end-date. Baelor locking away his sisters, Daena having escaped thrice, growing notoriously beautiful, Aegon helping her escape once, a likely scandal in the making, and then Naerys near death. If he couldn't keep Aegon from his siters by locking them away, then he sent him away to Braavos imo. Then in 170 AC Daeron has his first son Baelor and thus already wed to Mariah Martell. This is something entirely of Baelor's doing, and something Aegon would never have agreed to himself. He did not want any peace with Dorne, let alone have his only trueborn son be married to a Dornish princess. And surprise, surprise, the same year, almost near the end of it, Daena delivers a son, refusing to name the father (who most likely wasn't even supposed to be anywhere near Westeros).

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@sweetsunray

Maelys to the best of my knowledge killed one Blackfyre to take control of the Golden Company. Not sure where you are getting the idea about sisters and cousins, if you have I quote I would love to see it  Between the sacking of Tyrosh by the GC and the Band of  Nine. Also the lack of success for previous members of the family I can see the nobility getting rid of them. Look how quickly the nobility of the Free Cities soured on Viserys and Dany.

 

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4 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

@sweetsunray

Maelys to the best of my knowledge killed one Blackfyre to take control of the Golden Company. Not sure where you are getting the idea about sisters and cousins, if you have I quote I would love to see it  Between the sacking of Tyrosh by the GC and the Band of  Nine. Also the lack of success for previous members of the family I can see the nobility getting rid of them. Look how quickly the nobility of the Free Cities soured on Viserys and Dany.

 

We're talking 259 AC for the sack of Tyrosh. Calla Blackfyre would have had children with Bittersteel. Her sisters woudl have been wed to merchant princes or their brothers or sons. Haegon and Aenys might have had daughters aside from sons. Those daughters would have been wed to nobles of Tyroshi families. Those are the cousins and possible sisters I'm talking about. You'd think House Blackfyre sent their daughters to a motherhouse to be septas? Of course not. They're marriage coin. They're exotic dragonlord princesses. They get dowries for them. Many would not carry the Blackfyre name. But Maelys would fear their retaliation for killing the last male Blackfyre. Purging them would prevent retaliation. Thsoe families aren't going to send their own surviving kin away, just because they had a grandmother once called Blackfyre, and likely hated Maelys as much as they do.

Viserys and Dany weren't married to Tyroshis. They weren't grandchildren of the archon. It's not comparable.

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

We're talking 259 AC for the sack of Tyrosh. Calla Blackfyre would have had children with Bittersteel. Her sisters woudl have been wed to merchant princes or their brothers or sons. Haegon and Aenys might have had daughters aside from sons. Those daughters would have been wed to nobles of Tyroshi families. Those are the cousins and possible sisters I'm talking about. You'd think House Blackfyre sent their daughters to a motherhouse to be septas? Of course not. They're marriage coin. They're exotic dragonlord princesses. They get dowries for them. Many would not carry the Blackfyre name. But Maelys would fear their retaliation for killing the last male Blackfyre. Purging them would prevent retaliation. Thsoe families aren't going to send their own surviving kin away, just because they had a grandmother once called Blackfyre, and likely hated Maelys as much as they do.

Viserys and Dany weren't married to Tyroshis. They weren't grandchildren of the archon. It's not comparable.

Oh I thought your were talking about Maelys killing a bunch of relatives.

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On 3/3/2017 at 2:38 PM, Asshai Backwards said:

 If this were the case, than we would finally have found a real Chekov's Gun, and they are hanging over Dany's bed.

They're "golden" no? And they're "ladies".

Bloodraven does not discount Daemon II's sisters in the Mystery Knight when Duncan asks him whether he's going to kill Daemon II. He reasons that would just make it easy on Bittersteel to crown another Blackfyre, mentioning Daemon's younger brothers, but also his "sisters" (including Calla + 1 or more). That certainly is a hint by George not to discount the descendants of these sisters. If Daemon had 2 daughters, then Daario may be honoring them.

On 3/3/2017 at 2:38 PM, Asshai Backwards said:

Does the description of Daario returning that first evening with a bag of heads not stand out?

Two heads to gain absolute command over his company, is a parallel with Maelys killing a twin in the womb (little parasite head still sticking out of his neck) and tearing the head of the last Daemon Blackfyre.

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On 23/2/2017 at 2:11 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Isn't it Salladhor Saan who makes a crack about the Westerosi thinking their sigils actually make them animals? Seems like the sigil and the person being the same is a very Westerosi concept, yet a Tyroshi sellsword is using that concept by referring to Daenerys as a dragon.

Illyrio syas Westerosi make too much out of their sigils when Tyrion says he's a lion.

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On 23/2/2017 at 5:03 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Aegon would be either the real deal, or another son of Rhaegar's if he was knocking up multiple women in hopes of getting that third dragon head, or perhaps just a regular kid with Valyrian looks who has been given the chance to prove once and for all whether blood matters at all when it comes to being a king. It's too early to tell. I suppose he could be of the Brightflame line but I really think if there's a Brightflame in the mix it's Varys.

I'm with you on the possibility of Varys being a descendant of Brightflame.

I have an alternative for Serra, and thus Aegon: Saera Targaryen. Jaehaerys I had several daughters, but 3 of those have a story that's connected with one another, and it has connections to Serra's story and even Aegon.

Like her older sister, Saera was promised to the Faith. But unlike her older sister, she didn't become a septa. She ran away as a novice across the narrow sea. It turns out that she stayed in Lys first for a while, but eventually moved on and became the proud owner of a brothel in Old Volantis. Though her older sister became a septa, she chose to care for children afflicted with grey scale. She caught it and died from it. The younger sister was seduced by a singer, got pregnant and drowned herself in the Blackwater over it. She was Alyssane's favourite daughter. It broke her heart and she died not long afterwards.

Then we have Serra of a pillow house in Lys (a bedslave, but still counted among "whores"). She dies of the grey plague. A soiled septa takes care of Aegon in her place.

Yandel says Saera ran away because she was wild. But what else do "wild women" do? They have sex on their own terms no? And what prevented her from running back to KL to her father isntead, if her older sister was already a faithful one and became a septa? Surely kings can donate funds to the Faith to get a princess who hasn't said her vows yet back out of the motherhouse. Unless she was with child.

When old and alone Jaehearys mistakes Alicent Hightower (of 16) with his daughters, and most particularly towards the end of his life is convinced that she's Saera returned from across the narrow sea. We've got a parallel to Hoster Tully and Lysa there. I don't think that at the time anyone even knew where Saera had fled to, let alone that she became a madame of a brothel in Volantis.

What if she delivered a child in Lys, abandoned it, and moved on to Volantis. There is but one other character called Serra in the books, one of Walder Frey's daughters. She has also a twin Sarra. Serra and Sarra, and Saera could be pronounced as either Serra or Sarra depending on who you ask. Beyond that we have Shaera and of course Shiera. But that's it. Shaera and Shiera is like Saera but quite different in pronounciation, because of the "sh". Serra and Saera though would have the same pronounciation, but just spelled differently.

Personally, I think that George is creating a backstory where all dragons are "bastard" born. Even though I'm sure that Aegon IV didn't actually believe Daeron was not his son, but came up with it for his own selfish reasons, I think he inadevertently hit on a truth. No matter how pious and dutiful Naerys and Aemon were, they were human and they'd have been young... and in their grief over Naerys beign wed to Aegon, consoled one another, and one thing let to another, and hence Daeron.

Daemon doesn't rebel over Daenerys when she's married. He doesn't rebel when Daeron is made king. He rebels 12 years after Aegon IV died, 8 years after Dany's marriage. And whatever ill they say about Bittersteel, he totally respects the inheritance of older brothers coming before the younger and sons coming before uncles when it comes to crowning Blackfyres. The guy lived, fought and died for this over a span of 45 years as honorable as he could. Oh and he never puts his own sons or daughters with Calla forward either. To say that's just out of hatred against Bloodraven sounds wrong to me. That's propaganda, even though he did hate Bloodraven. I'd say that Daemon and Bittersteel were utterly convinced of Daeron being Aemon's son rather than Aegon's, because they came into evidence - maybe someone's deathbed witness account (a servant or handmaid). It's the easiest answer to explain why Daemon did not rebel until 196 AC. And it's the elephant in the room when Yandel writes this or that romanticised insult or slight or enmity or love in the years between Daeron becoming king and Daemon rebelling. And then you get the parallel with Stannis. In the eyes of the realm he's the one rebelling, slandering Cersei, and her children are trueborn, but we and Stannis know the truth of it.. they're children of her KG brother.

So, if Daeron is Aemon's son and not Aegon's, then any descendant from him, calling himself a Targ is actually a "fraud". They may be trueborn, but Daeron II would have been bastardborn: Aemon and Dany and Viserys come from a line from a bastard fraudulently claimed to be trueborn. And while Daemon Blackfyre is Aegon's son, he's still bastardborn. His descendants whether they have his name or not may be trueborn themselves, but stem from a legitimized bastard. Any child Saera would have had at Lys would have been bastardborn. Any child that Brightflame may have fathered in Lys would have been bastardborn. Jon bastardborn and bastard descendant (Daeron's line). Ben Plumm: Viserys Plumm is another bastard falsely made out to be trueborn by a father who could only have done it from the grave, but again is just another son of Aegon IV. Bloodraven: bastardborn. Shiera Seastar and her proposed possible daughter Mel: bastardborn.

It's perhaps the one thing that Aegon IV saw correctly: a child is a child with talents and failings, no matter what side of the blanket they're born, and why should a trueborn child actually be a better king or queen than a bastardborn child, especially when that trueborn child may not actually be trueborn after all. Well, not sure whether Aegon IV had that insight, but it sure is imo George's overall message, because if you look back enough, some ancestor was born out of wedlock.

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