Historical figures the Targaryan Kings are based on

[Chaircat Meow]

Wrt Stuarts, you could have Charles II as Robert and James II as Stannis. Charles II is fun loving merry monarch with colourful relations with the ladies, but possessed with the personality to keep the show on the road. James is a more dour military type, who adopts a strange and unpopular religion and puts people off with authoritarian tendencies. Charles II has no legitimate children either, and James II is struggling or a son for most of his reign (the birth of James III to Mary of Modena greatly alarmed his opponents).

Anyway, on Targs. I think Aegon I evokes William I, Viserys I evokes Henry I, Aegon IV has a bit of Henry VIII, Aerys is an evil version of Henry VI, and Robert is Edward IV. I'm not Jaehaerys reminds me of Henry II very much: he is more of a generic old and good king. The dance is the 19 years anarchy, obviously.

[lojzelote]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

But Baelor had no troubles with his lords. Richard II had a lot of those. Baelor really seems to have been more a creation George came up with himself. He is basically a priest-king.

Daeron I is the best Alexander parallel there is in Westeros, at least on a personal level. He is a young king who had a lot of military success and died early.

 

Well, I don't say they are 1:1 parallels. More like inspirations. An overly pious king and a young warmonger, though I think that Baelor fits Richard and Louis better than Daeron does Henry. I think that Daeron's conquest compares better to Henry's sojourn in Wales rather than Alexander's empire-building because it was short and unsuccessful, while Alexander's vast empire outlived him, albeit not by much. Alexander's project was  also far more ambitious.

Similarly, Rhaegar gives me the vibe of Edward the Black Prince, who was very popular, eloped with Joan of Kent, and in spite of hopes put in him died before his father, but, again, it's only a vibe.

[The hairy bear]

 

On 15/2/2017 at 2:10 PM, Lord Varys said:

Those stories about him using Christians as torches and the like are only found in very late sources (the late 2nd century onwards; I think Tertullian first wrote a history where this is mentioned). It is certainly possible that some people in Rome blamed the Christians (if there were many at this time in Rome) for the fire, but it is not very likely that they were cruelly killed. Those stories are all pious legends.

But that doesn't mean that George didn't get inspiration from those stories, of course.

Tacitus already mentions how Nero liked to burn Christians alive in his Annals, written around 120 AD (he was 9 when the Great fire of Rome took place in 64, so he would have been a first hand witness). And he was both anti-Christians and anti-Nero, so it's not like he had reasons to make this up.

Anyway, besides the potential pyrophilia, I see many other parallels with Nero: both were unlikely heirs at birth, both came to the throne at a very young age after the reign of a weak ruler, both showed great promise at the beginning, both pushed for unlikely grandiose plans, both were obsessed with gaining popularity amongst their subjects, both beat their wives, both's downfalls began due to a minor rebellion for tax issues, both were killed by servants just as rebels were entering their palaces, and in both cases their deaths marked the end of their dynasties.

On 14/2/2017 at 11:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

Maegor partially on Henry VIII (six wives two of which he executed and one of which, the first, he was rumored to have murdered)

Thinking about it, the correlations between the first two wives of Maegor and Henry are surprisingly high:

• Cersei Hightower/Catherine of Aragon: political alliance with a Southern kingdom that is the most devout supporter of the Faith. At the beginning everything is great, but the failure to provide a heir kills the relationship. She's abandoned and dies of a sudden illness, with rumours of having been poisoned.
• Alys Harroway/Anne Boleyn: the marriage is secret at first, and once becomes public causes a big confrontation with the church. The relationship has been incited by her family to social climb up. She also failed to produce a heir and was executed for unlikely accusations of adultery, causing the downfall of her  family.

But regarding the overall reign, Maegor resembles William II of Englad more. Sons of "the Conqueror", without piety or morality, successful military men, opposed by the nobles and the Church, and killed in murky circumstances without a clear suspect.

[Isobel Harper]

8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Littlefinger and Sansa?

Well, if William III and Mary II are parallels to Jaehaerys and Alysanne, and if Sansa is to be some kind of Alysanne 2.0 figure, then Sansa could be the Mary parallel.  

Not sure who she'd rule with.  Not LF.  Maybe HtH, but I personally don't see them marrying or Harry living long enough to rule anything. 

Qoherys (the Stark children's potential ancestor) might be wordplay on coheiress, and I do see Sansa becoming Lady of Harrenhal.  Maybe she and Jon or Rickon corule?  Not as husband and wife, but as brother and sister. 

Neither Sansa or Jon/Rickon would inherit the IT from Daenerys, but rather the IT and KL will be destroyed by wildfire, leaving the KotN (ironically) the most stable kingdom. 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Tacitus already mentions how Nero liked to burn Christians alive in his Annals, written around 120 AD (he was 9 when the Great fire of Rome took place in 64, so he would have been a first hand witness). And he was both anti-Christians and anti-Nero, so it's not like he had reasons to make this up.

Yeah, I just checked my Tacitus. But the whole passage feels a lot like an interpolation to me, especially that whole paragraph on Jesus' biography. Especially since the guys Nero was actually prosecuting were Chrestianos, possibly followers of the Chrestus who made trouble during the reign of Claudius. As long as we don't have an original manuscript it is impossible to say.

Quote

Anyway, besides the potential pyrophilia, I see many other parallels with Nero: both were unlikely heirs at birth, both came to the throne at a very young age after the reign of a weak ruler, both showed great promise at the beginning, both pushed for unlikely grandiose plans, both were obsessed with gaining popularity amongst their subjects, both beat their wives, both's downfalls began due to a minor rebellion for tax issues, both were killed by servants just as rebels were entering their palaces, and in both cases their deaths marked the end of their dynasties.

Yeah, that's actually pretty good. But Nero has a much more confusing youth than young Aerys...

Quote

Thinking about it, the correlations between the first two wives of Maegor and Henry are surprisingly high:

• Cersei Hightower/Catherine of Aragon: political alliance with a Southern kingdom that is the most devout supporter of the Faith. At the beginning everything is great, but the failure to provide a heir kills the relationship. She's abandoned and dies of a sudden illness, with rumours of having been poisoned.
• Alys Harroway/Anne Boleyn: the marriage is secret at first, and once becomes public causes a big confrontation with the church. The relationship has been incited by her family to social climb up. She also failed to produce a heir and was executed for unlikely accusations of adultery, causing the downfall of her  family.

Yeah, those parallels are very strong and most likely not coincidental. Perhaps one can also draw a parallel between Tyanna and Jane Seymour (as the woman he 'really loved') but everything else doesn't fit all that well aside from two wives (Rhaena and Elinor) to survive him.

[James Steller]

17 hours ago, Danelle said:

What are the parallels between Baelor and Constantine?

Both were hailed as saints, and religion is tied very closely to their legacies.

[Danelle]

On 17/2/2017 at 7:47 AM, James Steller said:

Both were hailed as saints, and religion is tied very closely to their legacies.

But this is very generic, don't you think?

Theodosius I is also hailed as a saint, so is Justinian I. 

And of course religion is closely linked to the legacies of several emperors, not just Constantine.

I agree with @Lord Varys that there are no parallels between Baelor and Constantine. 

In fact they had different lifestyle and type of governance.

 

Baelor:

 

• Was raised as a member of the faith of the Seven. In fact his ancestors had converted before Aegon's Conquest, years before Baelor was born.
• He became King because he succeeded his brother, Daeron.
• Baelor did marry his sister Daena, but there is no indication that the marriage was consummated. 
• He was a man who cared little for political intrigues or his legacy as a King, evidenced by his decision to release Dornish prisoners and forgiving his brother's murderer.
• Baelor's mission in Dorne, is an act that can be compared to the life of a christian saint, rather than an emperor or even an emperor-saint.
• He was chaste in a ridiculous degree, going as far as imprisoning his sisters and banning prostitution.
• He had a vision regarding the construction of a Great Sept-which was completed after he died.
• His charities earned the love of the smallfolk but his demand for humble behaviour earned the contempt of the lords.
• His insanity gradually increased, he fasted until he fainted and appointed a child as HS, because he thought that he could do miracles.
• He wanted all his subjects to convert to the faith of the Seven.
• He died because he starved himself to death or because his uncle poisoned him, probably because Baelor was becoming more and more unstable.

 

Constantine:

• He was not born to a royal or even noble family. His father was an army officer.
• He lived in Emperor Diocletian's court, where he was educated.
• His mother might have been married to his father or just his mistress.
• He took part in military campaigns in Asia.
• He was present during the persecution of the Christians by Diocletian.
• Constantine had an enemy in  emperor Galerius.
• He also took part in military expeditions in Britain, along with his father.
• When his father died, Constantine was declared Augustus by his soldiers.
• He was an army commander and led many battles against his enemies.
• He had a vision before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, against Maxentius, who contested his claim. He saw a cross and the words "In this sign conquer". Constantine defeated his enemy. 
• He legalised Christianity.
• He had his son Crispus executed.
• He had his wife Fausta executed (allegedly she had an affair with her stepson Crispus).
• He was baptised as a Christian towards the end of his life, when he was very sick.

 

Despite the fact that religion was an important factor both in the lives of Baelor and Constantine, their approach is radically different.

Baelor was a follower of the Seven, who used his status as a King, to impose the teachings of the septons.

Constantine was a pagan who later converted to Christianity, who used the new faith as a mean to gain power, influence and maintain control of the empire.  

 

[James Steller]

On 2/20/2017 at 5:44 AM, Danelle said:

But this is very generic, don't you think?

Theodosius I is also hailed as a saint, so is Justinian I. 

And of course religion is closely linked to the legacies of several emperors, not just Constantine.

I agree with @Lord Varys that there are no parallels between Baelor and Constantine. 

In fact they had different lifestyle and type of governance.

 

Baelor:

 

• Was raised as a member of the faith of the Seven. In fact his ancestors had converted before Aegon's Conquest, years before Baelor was born.
• He became King because he succeeded his brother, Daeron.
• Baelor did marry his sister Daena, but there is no indication that the marriage was consummated. 
• He was a man who cared little for political intrigues or his legacy as a King, evidenced by his decision to release Dornish prisoners and forgiving his brother's murderer.
• Baelor's mission in Dorne, is an act that can be compared to the life of a christian saint, rather than an emperor or even an emperor-saint.
• He was chaste in a ridiculous degree, going as far as imprisoning his sisters and banning prostitution.
• He had a vision regarding the construction of a Great Sept-which was completed after he died.
• His charities earned the love of the smallfolk but his demand for humble behaviour earned the contempt of the lords.
• His insanity gradually increased, he fasted until he fainted and appointed a child as HS, because he thought that he could do miracles.
• He wanted all his subjects to convert to the faith of the Seven.
• He died because he starved himself to death or because his uncle poisoned him, probably because Baelor was becoming more and more unstable.

 

Constantine:

• He was not born to a royal or even noble family. His father was an army officer.
• He lived in Emperor Diocletian's court, where he was educated.
• His mother might have been married to his father or just his mistress.
• He took part in military campaigns in Asia.
• He was present during the persecution of the Christians by Diocletian.
• Constantine had an enemy in  emperor Galerius.
• He also took part in military expeditions in Britain, along with his father.
• When his father died, Constantine was declared Augustus by his soldiers.
• He was an army commander and led many battles against his enemies.
• He had a vision before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, against Maxentius, who contested his claim. He saw a cross and the words "In this sign conquer". Constantine defeated his enemy. 
• He legalised Christianity.
• He had his son Crispus executed.
• He had his wife Fausta executed (allegedly she had an affair with her stepson Crispus).
• He was baptised as a Christian towards the end of his life, when he was very sick.

 

Despite the fact that religion was an important factor both in the lives of Baelor and Constantine, their approach is radically different.

Baelor was a follower of the Seven, who used his status as a King, to impose the teachings of the septons.

Constantine was a pagan who later converted to Christianity, who used the new faith as a mean to gain power, influence and maintain control of the empire.  

 

Fair enough.

On a side note, I was unaware that Theodosius and Justinian were also hailed as saints. Pardon my ignorance.