James Steller Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Looking at the various Targaryen kings, which historical figures do you reckon helped GRRM create them? I have theories on some of them, but the others I'm not so sure about. Aegon I = Alexander the Great Aenys I = Tiberius Maegor I = Caligula Jahaerys I = Claudius (minus the epilepsy), Charlemagne Viserys I = Aegon II = Nero Aegon III = Daeron I = Richard the Lionheart, Henry V Baelor I = Constantine, Edward the Confessor Viserys II = Aegon IV = Henry IIIV Daeron II = Aerys I = Maekar I = Aegon V = Jahaerys II = Aerys II = Henry VI of England Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Baelor the Blessed = Henry VI of England. Both considered extremely pious, and not really good rulers. Aegon I = William the Conqueror. Alexander conquered a lot more territory, and probably has a major Valyrian dragonlord equivalent somewhere. Aegon II = Stephen of England, and Rhaenyra parallels Maud, which makes Viserys I a Henry I character, and Aegon III a version of Henry II. You're right on with Aegon IV being Henry VIII. GRRM even referenced that himself when asked what Aegon IV should look like in his portrait. There are no true one-to-one portrayals, but he definitely drew from various histories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 1 hour ago, James Steller said: Looking at the various Targaryen kings, which historical figures do you reckon helped GRRM create them? I have theories on some of them, but the others I'm not so sure about. Aegon I = Alexander the Great Aenys I = Tiberius Maegor I = Caligula Jahaerys I = Claudius (minus the epilepsy), Charlemagne Viserys I = Aegon II = Nero Aegon III = Daeron I = Richard the Lionheart, Henry V Baelor I = Constantine, Edward the Confessor Viserys II = Aegon IV = Henry IIIV Daeron II = Aerys I = Maekar I = Aegon V = Jahaerys II = Aerys II = Henry VI of England Aegon I: William the Conqueror; Visenya vaguely resembles Livia as she is presented in I, Claudius. Aenys & Maegor: Partially on the sons who succeeded William; also on Captain Kirk from 'The Enemy Within'; Aenys I possibly partially on King John and Edward II; Maegor partially on Henry VIII (six wives two of which he executed and one of which, the first, he was rumored to have murdered); Aenys I's wife Alyssa Velaryon resembles the strong English queens - Isabella of France and, especially with her second marriage, Catherine of Valois. Jaehaerys I & Alysanne: Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine (the latter confirmed for Alysanne); Edward III is also a possible inspiration, especially regarding the issues with his succession Viserys I: Henry I Rhaenyra & Aegon II: Empress Matilda and Stephen of Blois; even parts of the Dance are directly inspired by this, most notably the riots against Rhaenyra after she has taken the capital. Aegon III: Superficially on Henry II Daeron I and Baelor I: Mostly genuine creations by George; Baelor has little in common with Henry VI who was a very weak king. Aegon IV: Henry VIII again. I don't recognize many parallels between the other kings and historical figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Aerys II, Rhaegar and even Aegon, if he is a fake, all represent different aspects and interpretations of Nero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I definitely think Aerys comes from Nero. Crazy king killed by his own guards, Nero burned Rome and Aerys tried to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: I definitely think Aerys comes from Nero. Crazy king killed by his own guards, Nero burned Rome and Aerys tried to. Caligula was stabbed by his own guards as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 If Lord Varys is right about Dany's imminent conquest of much of Essos, then I guess she is the closest Alexander the Great parallel in this series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said: If Lord Varys is right about Dany's imminent conquest of much of Essos, then I guess she is the closest Alexander the Great parallel in this series. If Dany is an Alexander parallel, then she will conquer Essos, plan to invade Westeros but die before she can do so. Or maybe the other way round if she is not to be a shaggy dog story. 8 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: I definitely think Aerys comes from Nero. Crazy king killed by his own guards, Nero burned Rome and Aerys tried to. Sort of. The suggestion that Nero was behind the burning of Rome is a myth. He was away in Antium at the time and when the news arrived he immediately organised a relief force. The story that he was responsible arose because he was supremely unpopular amongst the Senators (much as Aerys was amongst his nobles) who wrote the histories after his death. However, similarly to Rhaegar, Nero was well loved by the common people. There still are ways in which he was similar to Aerys though - for example Nero liked to burn Christians alive. He also started several grand projects that never came to fruition, but were actually pretty good ideas. For instance, he tried to construct the first Corinthian Canal but was dissuaded after being mocked. When Rome did burn down, Nero ordered that it be rebuilt in a much grander and safer manner just as Aerys wanted a KL made of marble south of the Blackwater. Rhaegar fits a more generous interpretation of Nero - popular with the average Westerosi, well known for his musical talents and whose premature death made a long period of political instability inevitable. When Nero came to power he was expected to be a major improvement on his predecessor Claudius, whose reign was (rather unfairly) characterised as a time of war, civil strife and illegal executions. After Nero's death and the establishment of the Flavian dynasty, there was a spate of imposters claiming to be Nero who tried to lead rebellions against Vespasian. They are somewhat reminiscent of fAegon, especially given that they were usually sponsored by the neighbouring Parthians for their own interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 9 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: I definitely think Aerys comes from Nero. Crazy king killed by his own guards, Nero burned Rome and Aerys tried to. There are some hints about Nero in Aerys II, most notably the fact that he intended to build another capital across the river which we got in TWoIaF. Aside from that the differences are slim. 30 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said: If Dany is an Alexander parallel, then she will conquer Essos, plan to invade Westeros but die before she can do so. Or maybe the other way round if she is not to be a shaggy dog story. Dany could perhaps build an empire like Alexander did, but there are no hints she resembles him in any way. The Conqueror is a much better example for this kind of thing, conquering the Seven Kingdoms in a very short amount of time with a host that was originally very small. 30 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said: There still are ways in which he was similar to Aerys though - for example Nero liked to burn Christians alive. Those stories about him using Christians as torches and the like are only found in very late sources (the late 2nd century onwards; I think Tertullian first wrote a history where this is mentioned). It is certainly possible that some people in Rome blamed the Christians (if there were many at this time in Rome) for the fire, but it is not very likely that they were cruelly killed. Those stories are all pious legends. But that doesn't mean that George didn't get inspiration from those stories, of course. 30 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said: After Nero's death and the establishment of the Flavian dynasty, there was a spate of imposters claiming to be Nero who tried to lead rebellions against Vespasian. They are somewhat reminiscent of fAegon, especially given that they were usually sponsored by the neighbouring Parthians for their own interests. Considering that Nero was the last emperor descended from Augustus (and Livia) that is hardly surprising. The Flavians had no 'blood claim' to the purple, and while this wasn't really necessary it was bad for propaganda purposes. They were not even a Senatorial family, if I remember correctly. And you can see this kind of thing later when, after the murder of Commodus, the Severan dynasty claims they are somehow descended from Marc Aurel. The murder of Rhaegar's children seems to have been inspired by the murder of Caligula's wife and daughter, at least according to one account. It has the murderers dash the head of the young girl against a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquering bastard 25 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Baelor the Blessed = Henry VI of England. Both considered extremely pious, and not really good rulers. Aegon I = William the Conqueror. Alexander conquered a lot more territory, and probably has a major Valyrian dragonlord equivalent somewhere. Aegon II = Stephen of England, and Rhaenyra parallels Maud, which makes Viserys I a Henry I character, and Aegon III a version of Henry II. You're right on with Aegon IV being Henry VIII. GRRM even referenced that himself when asked what Aegon IV should look like in his portrait. There are no true one-to-one portrayals, but he definitely drew from various histories. There's no way that you can possibly compare Henry the second and aegon III. Henry II was a warrior was his kingdom Stefan tan and then created one of the biggest Empires that Europe ever seen. Now compare tthat to Aegon the 3rd who couldn't couldn't stand to be touched. Who would consider to be weak who contributed nothing to the laws of the Kingdom where Henry created an entirely new Justice code. They are nothing like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 32 minutes ago, the conquering bastard 25 said: There's no way that you can possibly compare Henry the second and aegon III. Henry II was a warrior was his kingdom Stefan tan and then created one of the biggest Empires that Europe ever seen. Now compare tthat to Aegon the 3rd who couldn't couldn't stand to be touched. Who would consider to be weak who contributed nothing to the laws of the Kingdom where Henry created an entirely new Justice code. They are nothing like. Nice to see you tcb25! I didn't say Aegon III was a carbon copy of Henry II. If you look at my exact wording and the placement of the bit about Aegy 3 and Hank 2, you will see the reference was to Aegon's position in the Dance paralleling Henry's in that both of them had mothers who claimed the throne and lost the war but the sons still ended up on the throne anyway. A "version" of someone can be a weaker version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 10 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said: If Lord Varys is right about Dany's imminent conquest of much of Essos, then I guess she is the closest Alexander the Great parallel in this series. Dany isn't Alexander, she's Henry VII. And come to think of it, Maegor is actually Ivan the Terrible and Jahaerys is Peter the Great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Baelor reminds me of Richard II of England (religious and fasting himself, no heirs of his body) or Louis VII of France, the first husband of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was also almost a monk in a marriage bed (at least accrding to Eleanor). Daeron the Young Dragon resembles young Henry II. Early in his reign, Henry tried to conquer Wales, but failed miserably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 The whole of the early Targs parralel English History Aegon 1 = William Bastardus (the Conqueror) Aenys is William II (Rufos) a weak and unpopular king - certainly gay Maegor is Henry I The dance of Dragons is the battle between Matilda and Stephen Jaeharys is Henry II Viserys is King John Aegon II is a little like Richard II although Baleor is also a little like RIchard II The Starks and Lannisters are the Lancasters and Yorks with Tyrion being Richard III, Robb Henry V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Henry II was a wise king - and ruled with a powerful wife - Elinor of Aquitaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser_Jon_General Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I wonder if there might not be some elements of Charles II and James II in fAegon. Both were the sons of Charles I (deposed & executed in the English Civil War) and exiled in France. Charles II became king when Cromwell died & the monarchy was restored and James II took the throne when his brother died. Possibly importantly, James II lost his throne during the Glorious Revolution when William, Prince of Orange (married to James II's daughter Mary and son of Charles I own daughter, also named Mary) was invited by a number of nobles to take the throne and hold it jointly with Mary. In the belief that that his own army was powerful enough he rejected the offer of aid from France but when William landed with his troops a number of James' officers, and his own daughter Princess Anne, abandoned him and gave their support to William and Mary. With a matter of weeks James II's reign collapsed but rather than having him arrested and executed he was allowed to seek exile in France. All of which might suggest that Dany adopts parts of Mary. William III is possibly involved somewhere else but the obvious suggestion ends up sounding like too much fan-wankery. Interestingly, the letter from the nobles inviting William and Mary to invade is known as the Invitation by The Seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danelle Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 What are the parallels between Baelor and Constantine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 22 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: A "version" of someone can be a weaker version. Yeah, in that sense he works pretty fine as a parallel. And while Aegon III's private life was pretty fucked up he seems to have taken charge of his government after he came of age, keeping a tight leash on his lords (and especially the treasury), doing everything in his power to rebuild the Realm and better lives of the smallfolk. At least that's the political agenda he seems to outline when he took the government into his own hands. 13 hours ago, lojzelote said: Baelor reminds me of Richard II of England (religious and fasting himself, no heirs of his body) or Louis VII of France, the first husband of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was also almost a monk in a marriage bed (at least accrding to Eleanor). But Baelor had no troubles with his lords. Richard II had a lot of those. Baelor really seems to have been more a creation George came up with himself. He is basically a priest-king. 13 hours ago, lojzelote said: Daeron the Young Dragon resembles young Henry II. Early in his reign, Henry tried to conquer Wales, but failed miserably. Daeron I is the best Alexander parallel there is in Westeros, at least on a personal level. He is a young king who had a lot of military success and died early. 26 minutes ago, Danelle said: What are the parallels between Baelor and Constantine? There are none ;-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Ser_Jon_General said: I wonder if there might not be some elements of Charles II and James II in fAegon. Both were the sons of Charles I (deposed & executed in the English Civil War) and exiled in France. Charles II became king when Cromwell died & the monarchy was restored and James II took the throne when his brother died. Possibly importantly, James II lost his throne during the Glorious Revolution when William, Prince of Orange (married to James II's daughter Mary and son of Charles I own daughter, also named Mary) was invited by a number of nobles to take the throne and hold it jointly with Mary. In the belief that that his own army was powerful enough he rejected the offer of aid from France but when William landed with his troops a number of James' officers, and his own daughter Princess Anne, abandoned him and gave their support to William and Mary. With a matter of weeks James II's reign collapsed but rather than having him arrested and executed he was allowed to seek exile in France. All of which might suggest that Dany adopts parts of Mary. William III is possibly involved somewhere else but the obvious suggestion ends up sounding like too much fan-wankery. Charles II = Aegon VI James II = Daenerys William III and Mary = ??? Someone dethroning Daenerys? Quote Interestingly, the letter from the nobles inviting William and Mary to invade is known as the Invitation by The Seven. Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said: Charles II = Aegon VI James II = Daenerys William III and Mary = ??? Someone dethroning Daenerys? Cool. Littlefinger and Sansa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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