Is it confirmed Brandon never had sons

[Aegon VII]

I've been watching the order of the Greenland videos trying to find the one about Mance=Arthur (please let me know which one it is, I'm not particularly enjoying them so far) and it got me thinking about Ned dayne. Seems to me Brandon stark is the most likely candidate for his father with Ashara as his mother. In research I've found reference of an SSM in which supposedly grrm says Brandon didn't have any sons. I found one, but it says Brandon died before having sons, which is a very big difference.

so, did grrm ever say that Brandon didn't have sons? 

And, what happened first? Brandon's death or Ned daynes birth?

[Philokles]

Ned Dayne was born five years after Brandon died.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

GRRM said that Brandon could have left little Snows lying around but it is absolutely certain that he never had any legitimate children. The wording he used made it sound (to me) like he's not planning on throwing in any children for Brandon.

[Aegon VII]

33 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Ned Dayne was born five years after Brandon died.

That settles that then.

thank you!

[Wolf's Bane]

There is a theory that Jon Snow is actually the son of Lyanna Stark and her brother Brandon Stark.  They spent a lot of time together riding out in the hills.  Brandon is a womanizer with an always ready prod and Lyanna is not one to respect tradition nor roles.  It would fit the theme of Ice and Fire for the ice side to also have their own controlled breeding program.  The Targaryens, Starks, and Lannisters are the main families in this tale.  The Targaryens practiced brother-sister intercourse.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister engage in brother-sister intercourse.  Why not the Starks?  It would have a nice symmetry to the plot. 

Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow 

This making Jon the legitimate heir to Winterfell.  The theory goes Ned usurped the line of inheritance in order to take Winterfell for his own family.  

[Praetor Xyn]

He could technically have, most people that believe he did believe he conceived a child with Ashara Dayne in the dungeons of Kings Landing, but it's unlikely.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

16 minutes ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

There is a theory that Jon Snow is actually the son of Lyanna Stark and her brother Brandon Stark.  They spent a lot of time together riding out in the hills.  Brandon is a womanizer with an always ready prod and Lyanna is not one to respect tradition nor roles.  It would fit the theme of Ice and Fire for the ice side to also have their own controlled breeding program.  The Targaryens, Starks, and Lannisters are the main families in this tale.  The Targaryens practiced brother-sister intercourse.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister engage in brother-sister intercourse.  Why not the Starks?  It would have a nice symmetry to the plot. 

Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow 

This making Jon the legitimate heir to Winterfell.  The theory goes Ned usurped the line of inheritance in order to take Winterfell for his own family.  

I'm aware of the theory and I find it interesting, but my problem with the theory is were Lyanna and Brandon together at any point prior to Rhaegar taking her?

And I don't think Jon would be the legitimate heir to Winterfell. Both Brandon and Lyanna were promised to other people and were to have children with their spouses-to-be and any child they might've had together would be a bastard (unless Lyanna would marry Robert almost immediately after and try to pass off Jon as Robert's). It would make sense if they decided to have sex one last time before Brandon was to marry Catelyn and Lyanna to Robert, but that brings up the question, where were they together prior to Lyanna being taken?

Because if I remember correctly, Brandon came down from the North on his way to Riverrun so he could marry Catelyn, but Lyanna was already in the Riverlands when she was taken, which means they can't have been together prior to Lyanna's taking.

[Maxxine]

1 hour ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

There is a theory that Jon Snow is actually the son of Lyanna Stark and her brother Brandon Stark.  They spent a lot of time together riding out in the hills.  Brandon is a womanizer with an always ready prod and Lyanna is not one to respect tradition nor roles.  It would fit the theme of Ice and Fire for the ice side to also have their own controlled breeding program.  The Targaryens, Starks, and Lannisters are the main families in this tale.  The Targaryens practiced brother-sister intercourse.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister engage in brother-sister intercourse.  Why not the Starks?  It would have a nice symmetry to the plot. 

Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow 

This making Jon the legitimate heir to Winterfell.  The theory goes Ned usurped the line of inheritance in order to take Winterfell for his own family.  

Of all the RL does not equal J theories this is the one that makes the least sense. There's no evidence of this at all. Just bc Brandon doesn't mean he seduced Lyanna. Brother-Sister incest is not a common enough thing outside the Targs for us to jump to a random conclusion that Brandon & Lyanna did it. And even if it was true it would make Jon the legitimate heir to WF. He would still be a bastard. And there would be no in-story significance to this being true.

 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Brandon died months before Jon had to have been conceived. 

 

[The Commentator]

George Martin purposely kept the timelines vague to prevent the fans from working out the parentage of Jon Snow.  People forget that we really have no idea when Jon was born.  Proponents of the R+L=J theory assume that it was Jon's birth that killed Lyanna shortly before Ned's arrival.  That may not be true.  There are other scenarios that fit within the timeline when you admit that there is no proof that Jon was born shortly before Ned arrived at the tower of joy.  It is far more likely that if Lyanna died giving birth that the child also died.  Jon was already at least nine months old.  Remember there is a marked and explicit difference between Jon and Robb.  Poor Luwin had to come up with a lame excuse that bastards grow up much faster to help explain away the conspicuous developmental difference between the two boys.  Jon looked much older than Robb from the very beginning.  You also cannot rule out that Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara.  I actually like Lyanna + Mance = Jon.  

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

There is a theory that Jon Snow is actually the son of Lyanna Stark and her brother Brandon Stark.  They spent a lot of time together riding out in the hills.  Brandon is a womanizer with an always ready prod and Lyanna is not one to respect tradition nor roles.  It would fit the theme of Ice and Fire for the ice side to also have their own controlled breeding program.  The Targaryens, Starks, and Lannisters are the main families in this tale.  The Targaryens practiced brother-sister intercourse.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister engage in brother-sister intercourse.  Why not the Starks?  It would have a nice symmetry to the plot. 

Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow 

This making Jon the legitimate heir to Winterfell.  The theory goes Ned usurped the line of inheritance in order to take Winterfell for his own family.  

But there are zero hints, clues, foreshadowing... nothing, nada, zip, zero. And that's not even taking the timeline into account. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

George Martin purposely kept the timelines vague to prevent the fans from working out the parentage of Jon Snow.  People forget that we really have no idea when Jon was born.  Proponents of the R+L=J theory assume that it was Jon's birth that killed Lyanna shortly before Ned's arrival.  That may not be true.  There are other scenarios that fit within the timeline when you admit that there is no proof that Jon was born shortly before Ned arrived at the tower of joy.  It is far more likely that if Lyanna died giving birth that the child also died.  Jon was already at least nine months old.  Remember there is a marked and explicit difference between Jon and Robb.  Poor Luwin had to come up with a lame excuse that bastards grow up much faster to help explain away the conspicuous developmental difference between the two boys.  Jon looked much older than Robb from the very beginning.  You also cannot rule out that Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara.  I actually like Lyanna + Mance = Jon.  

1) He kept the timeline a little bit vague, but he's given us myriad hints.
-Brandon was killed before the war started.
-The war lasted about a year.
-Jon is at least able to pass for being younger than Robb who was conceived early in the war.
-Therefore, Brandon cannot be Jon's father.

2) Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany was, and Dany was born 9 months after the sack of King's Landing.

2) Based on what do you say the baby would die as well? There are countless stories throughout history and even in modern times of women dying in childbirth but the children surviving, not to mention precedent in the series itself: Joanna Lannister; Rhaella Targaryen; Minisa Tully; Dalla. 

3) The text does not bear that out. Jon is taller by the time they're 14 but the idea that he was always ahead of Robb is not in evidence. Nor has anyone ever said that Jon looked older than Robb, let alone much older, from the very beginning. Where do you get conspicuous developmental differences? Nothing like that is remotely in the books.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

George Martin purposely kept the timelines vague to prevent the fans from working out the parentage of Jon Snow.  People forget that we really have no idea when Jon was born.  Proponents of the R+L=J theory assume that it was Jon's birth that killed Lyanna shortly before Ned's arrival.  That may not be true.  There are other scenarios that fit within the timeline when you admit that there is no proof that Jon was born shortly before Ned arrived at the tower of joy.  It is far more likely that if Lyanna died giving birth that the child also died.  Jon was already at least nine months old.  Remember there is a marked and explicit difference between Jon and Robb.  Poor Luwin had to come up with a lame excuse that bastards grow up much faster to help explain away the conspicuous developmental difference between the two boys. 

I think you might be mixing stuff up. The "bastards grow up faster than other children" was about maturity (the whole context is about whether Jon is a "man" or a "boy"), presumably forced on someone thank to the relative hardships and adversity tied to illegitimate birth. Not about bastardy making people taller.

If you have some quotes comparing Jon and Robb at infancy, do share. I don't recall any.

"Jon was already at least nine months old" - when? When Lyanna died? Says who?

Here's what we do know: Robb Stark was conceived during Ned and Cat's wedding night, at the beginning of Robert's Rebellion, which had lasted "close to a year" at the moment of the Sack. So, Robb would be born pretty much at the time of the Sack, give or take a month or two. Meanwhile, Jon Snow was 'not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts'. Dany was born around "nine turns of the moon" after the Sack, Jon "eight to nine months before Dany", so - just like Robb - at the time of the Sack, give or take a month of two.

There's way less wiggle room than you're implying.

[Leo of House Cartel]

Considering The Heir To Winterfell and his party marched all the way down to Kings Landing, I imagine a bit of country wide "sword play" would have been in order for Bloody Brandon. He could have bastards in Kings Landing right now, serving in the City watch for all we know.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

Can I add to the confusion??? It sounds like little girls could be possible, but not a little son/s. I dunno, what do you think?

Q: There seem to be Lannisters and Freys under every rock, while the Starks are very scarce. Does Ned not have any distant relatives who could reclaim Winterfell?

A: ~~~It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generatons. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either. It might also have to do with their father, Rickard, who was an only son and I'd have to go back to my notes to see why he was the only child -- and really, I'm speaking from memory, so that may not be quite right. At home I have my notecards, my family trees where I keep this information, because unlike some other people I can't remember everything.~~~ (notice how GRRM does not say Lyanna did not leave behind a child )

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

And then this one:

Q: In A Dance with Dragons, we learn more about Brandon Stark and his interest in women, similar to Robert's. Did Brandon have any bastards as well?

A: It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

[The Fattest Leech]

12 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

There is a theory that Jon Snow is actually the son of Lyanna Stark and her brother Brandon Stark. 

And that theory is floppier than a fish out of water. Sorry.

12 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

They spent a lot of time together riding out in the hills.  Brandon is a womanizer with an always ready prod and Lyanna is not one to respect tradition nor roles. 

And that in no way means she is going to go against her house, northern culture, and the old gods by banging her brother. It just means she is more adventurous than many other girls at this time.

12 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

 

It would fit the theme of Ice and Fire for the ice side to also have their own controlled breeding program. 

The Targaryens with a breeding program, yes, because the author has basically said so in interviews and in the World book.

The Lannisters... not so much aside from two very recent incest examples that are there to make us question things in the larger picture.

Starks. No, Just no because it is said time and again by people from the north and with knowledge of the north that incest, or controlled breeding as you call it, is an abomination. Actually, it is described as an abomination against all the gods old and new.

12 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

 

The Targaryens, Starks, and Lannisters are the main families in this tale.  The Targaryens practiced brother-sister intercourse.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister engage in brother-sister intercourse. 

See above.

12 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

 

Why not the Starks?  It would have a nice symmetry to the plot. 

No, This is not a pearl grasping, shock and awe, never ending baby switching daytime soap opera. The symmetry to the plot is the balance of ice and fire. Not banging family members.

And again, this goes against all we know of the north, old gods, and the Starks. There was an instance about 100 or so years ago with two uncles most likely trying to grasp inheritance power from two nieces (which still sorta backfired) by marrying them. Hopefully more of that story will be revealed in the next Dunk & Egg. Other than that, it is not a thing with the Starks.

12 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow 

This making Jon the legitimate heir to Winterfell.  The theory goes Ned usurped the line of inheritance in order to take Winterfell for his own family.  

Can't see it. Besides, we have Robb that most likely did that already. Why would George make the same thing happen twice, one time by being an abomination?

[Kingmonkey]

14 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

The Targaryens practiced brother-sister intercourse.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister engage in brother-sister intercourse.  Why not the Starks?  It would have a nice symmetry to the plot. 

Lyanna Stark + Brandon Stark = Jon Snow 

Although I'm not a believer, it's fun to play devil's advocate and I explored the possibility of Starkcest here:

While I still favour RLJ, there are actually some pretty compelling arguments for Starkcest. Brandon not so much, because it's hard to find a timeline fit that doesn't have him being dead at the time. 

14 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

This making Jon the legitimate heir to Winterfell.  The theory goes Ned usurped the line of inheritance in order to take Winterfell for his own family.  

This however we can safely dismiss, because if Jon were the son of Brandon and Lyanna, he would not be legitimate. 

 

[Luddagain]

If Lyanna had a bed of blood ie a baby when Ned arrived at the ToJ we are talking a year from the time Brandon started the war.  Since Brandon was already dead for three months before Lyanna's baby was conceived, Brandon is NOT the father.

the Starks routinely practiced cousin marriages (as did the royal families of Europe.

We know of Sansa and Serena, Lynara Stark (who married Cregan) and Lynarra Stark the second, Ned's mum.

I actually have a theory that the King of Winter must have Starkness twice - once from mum and once from dad - exactly as dragon riders need two drops.

I think the mother is the critical element to a lot of the magic.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

Being that most responders to this post are willing to at least entertain the idea that Brandon and Lyanna may have had incestial sex, which I find to be completely baseless, what do you's think about the possibility that Brandon had premarital sex with Cat, at or around the time that he dueled Littlefinger? Brandon was known to be no virgin, have extramarital sex, and prefer taking girls' virginity, and not be shy to take what he wants, appreciating the beautiful sight of his bloody "sword". With that said, would it be a stretch to think that he possibly had betrothed, but premarital, sex with Cat, before his death? Is that how Cat married a man that she didn't know and when she met him was dissappointed in his diminutive appearance and disposition, when campared to his fiery and more aesthetically pleasing older brother with more than a few drops of the wolf blood, with no hesitation, and almost a thankful appreciation of the union? Did Cat know she was already pregnant with Brandon's child when she married Ned? Is that how she knows that she was definitely with child on the first night of their marriage? Maybe because she already was? They made a son together, they made a king together, that first night. Instead of a bastard.

[Luddagain]

Bloody

 

Yes I think it probable that Brandon is actually Robb's father.  I think that is why she hated Jon so much - she feared for Robb