Is it confirmed Brandon never had sons

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 20/2/2017 at 3:45 PM, Frey family reunion said:

twelve month long pregnancy would be extremely bizarre

Its not just 12 month long pregnancy. We know when Jon was born, GRRM told us, so either his conception date was months in the war or Brandon was his father and his mother had been pregnant for 1.5 years.

On 19/2/2017 at 11:07 PM, mmenolas said:

It's one dimensional because your sticking to facts, and only facts- one dimension.  If you don't include wild baseless speculation you're ruining everyone's fanfic...

Seriously though, there is no support for things like B+_=J; just because we cannot give a definitive date of conception for Jon, the possible window is small enough as to exclude a lot of these proposed lineages.

Truth be told author's words are one dimensional, its the only true dimention.

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Its not just 12 month long pregnancy. We know when Jon was born, GRRM told us, so either his conception date was months in the war or Brandon was his father and his mother had been pregnant for 1.5 years.

Truth be told author's words are one dimensional, its the only true dimention.

I don't think you're correct.  GRRM said Jon was born 8 to 9 months prior to Dany's birth.  Dany was probably conceived some time prior to the Battle at the Trident because Jon Darry was standing vigil with Jaime while Aerys was raping Rahella.  We know from AGOT that by the time the Sack occurred almost but not quite a year had elapsed from the start of the war, so not quite a year.  So Jon was born around the time of the Battle of the Trident, give or take, and less than a year had elapsed since the start of the war.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't think you're correct.  GRRM said Jon was born 8 to 9 months prior to Dany's birth.  Dany was probably conceived some time prior to the Battle at the Trident because Jon Darry was standing vigil with Jaime while Aerys was raping Rahella.  We know from AGOT that by the time the Sack occurred almost but not quite a year had elapsed from the start of the war, so not quite a year.  So Jon was born around the time of the Battle of the Trident, give or take, and less than a year had elapsed since the start of the war.

GRRM also said Dany was born 9 months after the sack of King's Landing. She was conceived the night before Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone.

Thus Jon was born during the sack or a month after.

[Frey family reunion]

12 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

GRRM also said Dany was born 9 months after the sack of King's Landing. She was conceived the night before Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone.

Thus Jon was born during the sack or a month after.

No, Viserys said that Dany was born nine moons after the flight to dragon stone.  Dany could not have been conceived the night before Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone, because Darry was already dead then.  Jaime just said that the night Rahella was raped by Aerys was the last time he saw her before she left for Dragonstone, he didn't say how much time elapsed between the two events.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, Viserys said that Dany was born nine moons after the flight to dragon stone.  Dany could not have been conceived the night before Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone, because Darry was already dead then.  Jaime just said that the night Rahella was raped by Aerys was the last time he saw her before she left for Dragonstone, he didn't say how much time elapsed between the two events.

What does when Jonothor Darry was killed have to do with when Dany was conceived? If she was born nine months after her mother left, chances are the conception was very close to the time her mother left the city. Unless you're saying Dany is Jonothor's daughter, or that you have proof that Rhaella was ovulating during that prior rape, there is no reason Darry needs to be present for the conception. 

It is known that she was born nine months after the sack, during a seriously bad storm, hence the name Daenerys Stormborn. 

Either way, Jon's age is known based on Dany's, and we know when Dany was born...thus we know when Jon was born.

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

What does when Jonothor Darry was killed have to do with when Dany was conceived? If she was born nine months after her mother left, chances are the conception was very close to the time her mother left the city. Unless you're saying Dany is Jonothor's daughter, or that you have proof that Rhaella was ovulating during that prior rape, there is no reason Darry needs to be present for the conception. 

It is known that she was born nine months after the sack, during a seriously bad storm, hence the name Daenerys Stormborn. 

Either way, Jon's age is known based on Dany's, and we know when Dany was born...thus we know when Jon was born.

While I suppose it's possible that she was conceived after the rape Jaime and Darry were "witness" to it seems very unlikely based on what we're told.  First it's been emphasized that their relationship had deteriorated to such a point that Aerys would only visit her after he's burned someone alive.  Then after the troops leave for the Trident, Jaime is the only Kingsguard left and Jaime doesn't see Rhaella again until the morning she leaves for Dragonstone.  So it seems unlikely that Aerys continued these nocturnal visits without Jaime's knowledge.  

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

While I suppose it's possible that she was conceived after the rape Jaime and Darry were "witness" to it seems very unlikely based on what we're told.  First it's been emphasized that their relationship had deteriorated to such a point that Aerys would only visit her after he's burned someone alive.  Then after the troops leave for the Trident, Jaime is the only Kingsguard left and Jaime doesn't see Rhaella again until the morning she leaves for Dragonstone.  So it seems unlikely that Aerys continued these nocturnal visits without Jaime's knowledge.  

Okay. According to the wiki...

Quote

Soon after the burning of Lord Chelsted,^[19] King's Landing was informed of the death of Rhaegar at the hands of Lord Robert Baratheon during the Battle of the Trident. Aerys evacuated Queen Rhaella, who was in the early stages of pregnancy, and Prince Viserys to Dragonstone^[17]

Soon is not a definite amount of time, but we're not talking months here. Added to that is the knowledge that Dany was born during that storm...which was nine months after the Sack of KL. Nine months is equal to 36 weeks. A pregnancy is counted from the date of the last menstruation and called 40 weeks. So 38 weeks is the actual term from ovulation to birth. That gives Rhaella two weeks between the last rape and leaving for Dragonstone. There's no reason to believe Dany was late. 

Based on GRRM's statement about the age difference between Dany and Jon...Jon still can't be Brandon's son.

 

[Frey family reunion]

44 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Okay. According to the wiki...

Soon is not a definite amount of time, but we're not talking months here. Added to that is the knowledge that Dany was born during that storm...which was nine months after the Sack of KL. Nine months is equal to 36 weeks. A pregnancy is counted from the date of the last menstruation and called 40 weeks. So 38 weeks is the actual term from ovulation to birth. That gives Rhaella two weeks between the last rape and leaving for Dragonstone. There's no reason to believe Dany was late. 

Based on GRRM's statement about the age difference between Dany and Jon...Jon still can't be Brandon's son.

 

The wiki isn't a valid source, if you can't cite the books, don't bother citing anything. 

Here is what we know:

1) Viserys tells Dany that she was born nine moons after their midnight flight to Dragonstone (of course nine moons can be anything from slightly more than eight months to slightly less than ten months).  I personally believe that it's possible that Viserys is completely full of crap about Dany's origin, but I won't go down that rabbit hole for the purpose of this argument, let's take him at his word.

2)  The only evidence we have of Aerys having sex with Rahella is Jaime's memory of he and Darry standing guard outside of Rhaell'a bedchamber.  This had to have occurred before the Trident.

3) But for sake of argument let's say the conception occurred immediately before Rahella left for Dragonstone.  In AGOT the Lannisters appeared at the gates of King's Landing less close to year from the start of the war.  From Eddard's POV:

Quote

"Not our men," Ned said patiently.  "Lannister men.  The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts, not the crowned stag.  And they had taken the city by treachery."

The war had raged for close to a year.  Lords great and small had flocked to Robert's banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen.  The might Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists.  Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin appeared before the gates of King's Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty.  So the mad king had ordered his last mad act.  He had opened his city to the lions at the gate.

So Dany's conception (if her parents were Aerys and Rhaella) had to have occurred less than a year after the start of the war, because the Sack of King's Landing didn't occur until after they fled the city, and close to but not quite a year had elapsed.

And the best evidence we have of Dany's conception would have occurred even earlier, before the soldiers left for the Battle of the Trident.

So if Martin is lining up Dany's conception to Jon's birth, than Jon would have been born before the Sack and possibly even before the Battle of the Trident.  Either way, less than a year after the start of the war.

And of course we don't know when Eddard would have considered the war to have started.  Let's assume when Arryn called his banners. 

There is enough wiggle room to argue that Jon's conception could have occurred before Lyann's disappearance, if it was an unusually long pregnancy.  But I don't think the pregnancy had to have been longer than a year.  In fact based on the evidence at hand it is much more likely that it was slightly under a year than it was a year and a half like Jon's Queen escort argues.

Now I understand if you want to discount a year long pregnancy, I'm not crazy about this theory either.  But if we allow for the idea of a bizarre pregnancy than we can't necessarily discount this, especially since an abnormally long pregnancy is one of the elements of the Volsunga theory, which I think GRRM would have been aware of and is possibly referencing in his story.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

Something that I think a lot of people tend to forget is that the Sack of King's Landing couldn't have happened as soon as most people tend to think it did.

Rhaegar was defeated at the Trident and because Robert got a serious wound, he had to rest in order to heal himself. They are up at the Trident and marching down to King's Landing, is going to take a while, even more so with a large host.

And it was not Ned or Robert who sacked the city, it as Tywin and his host. Tywin only decided to join the war because the victor was now obvious. Tywin and his host came from Casterly Rock, which is even further away from King's Landing that the Trident. Tywin and his host must've taken at least a month to get to King's Landing.

After the Sacking, Ned marches to Storm's End to end the Tyrell siege. More marching for Ned and we know that he brought Howland Reed, Willam Dustin and five other men with him. He couldn't have known whether the Tyrells would still be loyal to the Targaryens or not, which is the reason why it would've been smart to bring at least a small host with him, which makes me believe that he brought more than his seven companions with him, but left the host at Storm's End.

Ned then marches down into Dorne to the Tower of Joy, where he and co. fight the Kingsguard and he allegedly finds Lyanna in "a bed of blood".

All of this marching takes time for Ned and if Jon truly was born at the Tower of Joy and was born "eight to nine months" before Dany, then I'm not quite sure what to think of how long Lyanna was pregnant with him.

 

I suppose you could argue that Rhaegar and Lyanna did not immediantly start rubbing uglies together the moment Rhaegar had taken Lyanna and actually waited until they were at the Tower of Joy to rub uglies.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

The wiki isn't a valid source, if you can't cite the books, don't bother citing anything. 

Here is what we know:

1) Viserys tells Dany that she was born nine moons after their midnight flight to Dragonstone (of course nine moons can be anything from slightly more than eight months to slightly less than ten months).  I personally believe that it's possible that Viserys is completely full of crap about Dany's origin, but I won't go down that rabbit hole for the purpose of this argument, let's take him at his word.

2)  The only evidence we have of Aerys having sex with Rahella is Jaime's memory of he and Darry standing guard outside of Rhaell'a bedchamber.  This had to have occurred before the Trident.

3) But for sake of argument let's say the conception occurred immediately before Rahella left for Dragonstone.  In AGOT the Lannisters appeared at the gates of King's Landing less close to year from the start of the war.  From Eddard's POV:

So Dany's conception (if her parents were Aerys and Rhaella) had to have occurred less than a year after the start of the war, because the Sack of King's Landing didn't occur until after they fled the city, and close to but not quite a year had elapsed.

And the best evidence we have of Dany's conception would have occurred even earlier, before the soldiers left for the Battle of the Trident.

So if Martin is lining up Dany's conception to Jon's birth, than Jon would have been born before the Sack and possibly even before the Battle of the Trident.  Either way, less than a year after the start of the war.

And of course we don't know when Eddard would have considered the war to have started.  Let's assume when Arryn called his banners. 

There is enough wiggle room to argue that Jon's conception could have occurred before Lyann's disappearance, if it was an unusually long pregnancy.  But I don't think the pregnancy had to have been longer than a year.  In fact based on the evidence at hand it is much more likely that it was slightly under a year than it was a year and a half like Jon's Queen escort argues.

Now I understand if you want to discount a year long pregnancy, I'm not crazy about this theory either.  But if we allow for the idea of a bizarre pregnancy than we can't necessarily discount this, especially since an abnormally long pregnancy is one of the elements of the Volsunga theory, which I think GRRM would have been aware of and is possibly referencing in his story.

Okay, Wiki is thrown out. Interesting that GRRM specifically mentioned timelines giving him fits in response to the question about the age difference between Dany and Jon.

What about the fact that Jon has to be about Robb's age or younger (or be seriously developmentally delayed) in order for the lie that Ned fathered him after marrying Catelyn to hold up? 

Then of course there's unreliable narrator, which I believe you touched on in referencing another possible incident that Jaime doesn't remember (or he could have repressed the memory). 

And also we have the total lack of anything remotely resembling clues in the text to indicate incest between Brandon and Lyanna. And Jon not exhibiting the wolf blood that he would inevitably inherited if Brandon and Lyanna were his parents.

Eh, whatever.

[Frey family reunion]

27 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Okay, Wiki is thrown out. Interesting that GRRM specifically mentioned timelines giving him fits in response to the question about the age difference between Dany and Jon.

What about the fact that Jon has to be about Robb's age or younger (or be seriously developmentally delayed) in order for the lie that Ned fathered him after marrying Catelyn to hold up? 

Then of course there's unreliable narrator, which I believe you touched on in referencing another possible incident that Jaime doesn't remember (or he could have repressed the memory). 

And also we have the total lack of anything remotely resembling clues in the text to indicate incest between Brandon and Lyanna. And Jon not exhibiting the wolf blood that he would inevitably inherited if Brandon and Lyanna were his parents.

Eh, whatever.

I hate these timeline arguments as much as anyone.  It just bothers me when they are used to completely discredit a theory, when there really isn't enough evidence of the timeline to do it.  And we really do rely on these SSM's a bit too much.  Who knows if GRRM really thought it out, when he said that Jon's birth was 8 to 9 months before Dany's. 

And once again while I don't really like the Jon as the product of incest, I'm not ready to completely discount it. 

In regards to Robb vs Jon, I'm not exactly sure how much time was supposed to elapse between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident.  It's all a bit vague.  So who knows how much time really elapsed between their births?  And the better question is does George know enough about kids to have even considered that as an issue?  I know some kids develop faster than others, perhaps if Jon's birth was somewhat complicated maybe he developed slower than Robb.

But I will try to defend the theory a bit outside the timeline issue.  I would suggest reading Kingsmonkey's thread about the possibility of Benjen being Jon's father.  He discounts Jon's conception occurring before Lyanna's disappearance, and I'm not crazy about his scenario to Benjen having contact with Lyanna after her disappearance, but a lot of his observations are pretty interesting.

As for Jon being the product of incest, we have Jon's very Starklike appearance.  I know that its not dispositive, and we have other examples of "mixed" ethnicities strongly taking after one side, but it's definitely a factor to consider.  Jon looks very much like a Stark and not much like anything else.

Then we have Brandon's very strong reaction to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna, much stronger than the normally hotheaded (and drunken) Robert Baratheon, Lyanna's betrothed.  There is a very familiar scene detailing a tourney and the crowning of a Queen of Love and Beauty, in the book Ivanhoe.  The mystery knight crowns the object of his desire and her family (foster family in that case) are actually very pleased with the honor bestowed on their ward/foster daughter, but the person they betrothed her to becomes very jealous of the mystery knight.  Here, while it's Lyanna's brother that takes the greatest offense.  Perhaps Brandon knew about the Bael tale and Robert didn't, so that could explain it, or perhaps Brandon was possessive of Lyanna to an unhealthy degree.

We have Ned's comments on the wildness in Lyanna and Brandon that led to their death, and Lady Dustin's comment about Brandon loving the sight of blood on his sword. 

I also have the nagging feeling that Ned is suppressing something about the circumstances behind Lyanna's death and her promises.  In his POV's he continues to echo her pleas, but something stops him from going further in his thoughts.  He completely blacks out a portion of her death, he was told that Howland took Lyanna's hand from his but he remembered none of it.  He has nightmares about Lyanna's promises, and doesn't understand why he's dreaming about it.  At one point the dream/memory of it makes him think that he's going mad.  There are some serious negative emotions happening here, that seem beyond his sister dying in childbirth.  After all in that day and time, a death by childbirth isn't completely unusual.

If Jon was the product of rape and incest, it might explain the true nature of the promise that Lyanna tried to elicit from Ned.  It may not have been to protect the child, but it may have been something quite different.  If Lyanna suffered through an unwanted pregnancy, that required a C-section for delivery (ultimately leading to her death), she may have had a very, very negative view of the child born of this trauma, especially if that child was conceived through rape and incest.  And remember, Ned abhors the idea of killing a child.  Ned also dreams at one point of blood and broken promises.  Ned allowing Jon to live may in fact be that broken promise.

But it is a very good question as to whether there are any clues in the story of Jon being the product of an abnormally long pregnancy, which would have led to a C-section, and then to Lyanna's death.  Well, there may be a few (maybe).

Let's start with Robert Baratheon's death bed scene.  Robert was gored from groin to nipple by the boar, which would be somewhat reminiscent of Lyanna suffering from a cesarean.  Then we have Robert getting Eddard to promise him several things, which causes Lyanna's promises to echo in Eddard's thoughts.  He makes Eddard promise him that he will save the girl, if he can, but also to "eat" the black bastard of a boar that caused his death.  Would that make Ned think of Lyanna making Ned promise to her that he will kill the black bastard child that caused her death?

Then there is the tale of "Sleepy" Jack Musgood.    Raymun, the King beyond the wall and his forces meet their end on the shores of Longlake, between the forces of Lord Willam and his younger brother, Artos the Implacable combine with the forces of the umbers, led by the drunken giant, Harmond Umber.  "Sleepy" Jack arrives too late for the battle, but just in time to dig the graves. 

Let's put Rhaegar into the role of Raymun, who meets his end on the shores of Longelake, while Rhaegar meets his end on the Trident.  Brandon and Eddard are the Stark brothers, Brandon is slain like Willam, and Eddard becomes the Lord of Winterfell like Artos, the implacable.  Our drunken giant, is Robert who fits the role quite well.  The only difference is Robert slays Rhaegar, as opposed to Eddard.

Jon, is "Sleepy" Jack Musgood, who arrives too late.  Perhaps an allusion to Jon's overlong gestation, Jon "sleeps" through the battle.  Jon's birth coincides with Lyanna's death (arriving just in time to dig the graves). 

And finally we have this tidbit from the Princess and the Queen:

Quote

She cursed the child inside her too.  "Get out" she screamed, clawing at her swollen belly as her maester and midwife tried to restrain her.  "Monster, monster, get out, get out, GET OUT!"

The only other child referred specifically to as "monster" is Gilly's babe, the product of an incestuous relationship.  While the baby above was born premature, it otherwise seems to otherwise reflect the scenario around the Norse myth of Volsung's birth.  Volsung's mother was so sick of her pregnancy that would never end, she ordered the child out through a cesarean section.  Could this be an echo of what Lyanna could have been yelling before her cesarean?

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't think you're correct.  GRRM said Jon was born 8 to 9 months prior to Dany's birth.  Dany was probably conceived some time prior to the Battle at the Trident because Jon Darry was standing vigil with Jaime while Aerys was raping Rahella.  We know from AGOT that by the time the Sack occurred almost but not quite a year had elapsed from the start of the war, so not quite a year.  So Jon was born around the time of the Battle of the Trident, give or take, and less than a year had elapsed since the start of the war.

What GRRM said was that;

Quote

 

We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack. As we know the war lasts “close” to a year which is often just referred to as a “year” (I: 96, 233), suggesting 10-11 months is likelier than 9 months. Given this, his conception seems to have been between 1-3 months into the war.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

 

So in order for Jon to be Brandon, Brandon had to be able to father a child more than a year after his death.

[Frey family reunion]

14 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What GRRM said was that;

So in order for Jon to be Brandon, Brandon had to be able to father a child more than a year after his death.

Err, no Martin did not say that, someone putting together a theory said what was in your quote.  Here is what Martin said:

Quote

Ah... I see what you're driving at here, I guess...

I will confess, the chronology of these books sometimes gives me fits. You would not believe how often I reshuffle the chapters, trying to find the one true perfect sequence. And then just when I have it exactly right, my editors weigh in from both sides of the Atlantic, each suggesting a slightly different chapter order.

It is always a balancing act, since I want the chapters to have a certain dramatic flow, I worry about certain storylines being forgotten if they are "off stage" too long, and there is a constant tug of war between character time and reader time (a character may have two chapters, taking place one day apart, but if two hundred pages of stuff about other characters separate those two chapters, the reader is going to perceive a long time as having passed, even if I begin the second chapter with, "When he woke up the very next morning..."

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

I do intend to publish a timeline as an appendix in one or other of the later volumes, but even when I do, I am not certain I'm going to start detailing things down to months and days. With such a huge cast of characters, just keeping track of the =years= drives me half mad sometimes. Not to mention the colors of everybody's eyes.

As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

The rest I will save for the books.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Err, no Martin did not say that, someone putting together a theory said what was in your quote.  Here is what Martin said:

So what you say is that Jon is much older that everyone knows and no one seems to have noticed it? 

[Frey family reunion]

38 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So what you say is that Jon is much older that everyone knows and no one seems to have noticed it? 

What I'm suggesting is that if Jon was born around the time of the Trident, we can't necessarily discount the idea of him being conceived before Lyanna's disappearance.  It may be highly improbable, depending on how much stock you're willing to put into the possibility of an unusually long pregnancy, but not impossible.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

What I'm suggesting is that if Jon was born around the time of the Trident, we can't necessarily discount the idea of him being conceived before Lyanna's disappearance.

How possibly could the war have "raged for close to a year"? Here's the sequence of the events: Lyanna disappears. Brandon goes berserk, rides to King's Landing (a few weeks here), challenges Rhaegar. Gets thrown in dungeon for his trouble. Rickard summoned. Rickard rides to King's Landing (another few weeks). The "trial". Aerys demands the heads of Ned and Bob. I see easily two, three months passing here.

Then Jon Arryn raises his banners, and the war breaks. The Sack of King's Landing marks the moment when the war "had raged for a year", according to Ned. To make the "conceived before Lyanna's disappearance" scenario work, we need to assume that "close to a year" took six, seven months tops.

Plus, you know, there's still this little thing of the absolute lack of evidence for the "Brandon's son" theory, instead of mere "you can't disprove it" (which, as shown above, we can). Well, I cannot disprove a teapot orbiting the Sun between Earth and Mars; nobody can. Doesn't mean the hypothetical teapot deserves any credit due an actual, valid theory.

[Quellon]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

What I'm suggesting is that if Jon was born around the time of the Trident, we can't necessarily discount the idea of him being conceived before Lyanna's disappearance.  It may be highly improbable, depending on how much stock you're willing to put into the possibility of an unusually long pregnancy, but not impossible.

 

Thankyou! I was saying that before-nobody can for sure tell exactly when Jon was born, that is why there is a mystery around him, that is why he is a bastard. Nobody wrote down the time of his birth, like it was the case for the other Stark children. Ha! So stop pretending like you people know the whole truth, like you are Martin.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

How possibly could the war have "raged for close to a year"? Here's the sequence of the events: Lyanna disappears. Brandon goes berserk, rides to King's Landing (a few weeks here), challenges Rhaegar. Gets thrown in dungeon for his trouble. Rickard summoned. Rickard rides to King's Landing (another few weeks). The "trial". Aerys demands the heads of Ned and Bob. I see easily two, three months passing here.

Then Jon Arryn raises his banners, and the war breaks. The Sack of King's Landing marks the moment when the war "had raged for a year", according to Ned. To make the "conceived before Lyanna's disappearance" scenario work, we need to assume that "close to a year" took six, seven months tops.

Plus, you know, there's still this little thing of the absolute lack of evidence for the "Brandon's son" theory, instead of mere "you can't disprove it" (which, as shown above, we can). Well, I cannot disprove a teapot orbiting the Sun between Earth and Mars; nobody can. Doesn't mean the hypothetical teapot deserves any credit due an actual, valid theory.

I appreciate your concern, you just need to take it up with the author, not me.  It's Eddard's POV establishing that the war had raged for close to a year prior to the Sack.  

Someone did a timeline of the current books, and I checked to see about how much time could have elapsed in a year long time period.  According to that timeline a year was the period of time between Tyrion's abduction by Cat and Cat releasing Jaime from Riverrun.  Now think about how much occurred between those two events.

And you can't say that there aren't some nagging hints about Jon being the product of incest.  Kingsmonkey brought up quite a few in his thread, and I added a few here.  Once again I'm not a huge fan of the theory, but I think we're wrong in completely discounting it as a possibility.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

23 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

<snip

 

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I will only add that 1) of course Ned is suppressing something in his thoughts regarding Lyanna and her death, because the author wants to keep us in suspense and Ned giving the game away in the first book would ruin that; and 2) if Brandon and Lyanna had a child together, you'd think the kid would have a double-dose of the wolf blood they both had. Yet, Arya is the only one of the six kids who Ned thinks has a touch of the wolf blood. Jon is nothing like one would expect a child of a Brandon and Lyanna pairing to be. 

Oh, and Jon's eyes could end up being the key. We are never given the color, which is interesting considering that the Starks are known for grey eyes.

 

4 hours ago, Quellon said:

Thankyou! I was saying that before-nobody can for sure tell exactly when Jon was born, that is why there is a mystery around him, that is why he is a bastard. Nobody wrote down the time of his birth, like it was the case for the other Stark children. Ha! So stop pretending like you people know the whole truth, like you are Martin.

That is not the definition of a bastard. 

[Quellon]

44 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That is not the definition of a bastard. 

Didn't mean that either but that because he is one, we cannot know for sure when he was born exactly.