The mystery of the Tattered Prince

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

So having finished ADWD a few months back I was left with a lot of questions. One of them being who on earth is the Tattered Prince and why does he want Pentos so bad?

Is he just what his name says he is? Or is he another secret Rhaegar?

Is the Tattered Prince even important in the grand scheme of things or just a side plot to progress another characters story?

Do you think he'll feature in the Battle of Fire and what will that mean?

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

We've got enough characters who disappeared, or for whose lives we have no account, that the Tattered Prince could end up being one of them or one of their descendants. 

According to the Wiki, Tatters (as I'm going to call him from now on) was named Prince of Pentos way back in 262 AC. But...rather than accept he fled to the Disputed Lands, and later founded the Windblown. Can't blame him considering the last prince had just had his head removed. also he was only 23 when they offered him the job. 

Pentos has been involved with Targaryens on and off throughout the last three centuries. Aegon I and Balerion helped them in a war with Volantis back before he went a-conquering. Given that Pentos had been founded by Valyrians it does make sense. Maegor I was exiled there during Aenys I's reign. Prince Daemon lived there for a while with his second wife. Rhaenyra's youngest two sons were supposed to be fostered with the Prince of Pentos until her throne was secure (though that plan didn't exactly work out). And of course Illyrio hosted Viserys and Dany.

Back to missing characters, or characters with missing lives...there are Targaryens who fit into this category. Aerion's son Maegor is accounted for up to about age 1, when he was passed over for the throne. No info on what happened later. Several Targaryen daughters including both of Aegon V's sisters could have ended up anywhere. Gerion Lannister is probably not Tatters. No one has a clue what happened to Rohanne Lannister. If she didn't die she could have had more children later in life.

I don't know if Tatters is important or not, but if we want to figure out who he is we're looking for someone who was born about 239 AC, give or take a year either way, or someone who could have had a child born that year if we're hoping to find his parents first. 

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

I think he's really who he says he is: just a dude who was randomly chosen to die in what I imagine he sees as a fucked up custom and chose to bail.

In a more meta sense, I think one of the reasons GRRM included him in the story and made his desire to get Pentos seem so ominous is because his role going forward will be to serve as a foil for Illyrio. Like, no one who plays the game of thrones is absolutely safe, and even Illyrio with all his money and his secure manse in Pentos is at risk of being gutted like a whale.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

He wasn't chosen to die. He was chosen to rule.

But you've got a good point about him being a foil for Illyrio.

[Lost Melnibonean]

36 minutes ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

So having finished ADWD a few months back I was left with a lot of questions. One of them being who on earth is the Tattered Prince and why does he want Pentos so bad?

Is he just what his name says he is? Or is he another secret Rhaegar?

Is the Tattered Prince even important in the grand scheme of things or just a side plot to progress another characters story?

Do you think he'll feature in the Battle of Fire and what will that mean?

 

 

[No one is here]

8 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

I think he's really who he says he is: just a dude who was randomly chosen to die in what I imagine he sees as a fucked up custom and chose to bail.

In a more meta sense, I think one of the reasons GRRM included him in the story and made his desire to get Pentos seem so ominous is because his role going forward will be to serve as a foil for Illyrio. Like, no one who plays the game of thrones is absolutely safe, and even Illyrio with all his money and his secure manse in Pentos is at risk of being gutted like a whale.

I agree.  I think Tattered Prince will be Illyrio's foil as well.  I have a theory that Illyrio may have had something to do with Tatters leaving Pentos in the first place and that he and Illyrio have un-finished business.  It might even be that they do not know each other and that Fatman randomly gets caught in Tatters revenge plot on Pentos.

But, I don't think Tatters is someone from Westeros in hiding.  I think he is legit from Pentos.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Who said anything about hiding? 

[Davjos]

Holy shit the dude is 60+ when we meet him through Tyrion. Don't know if I misread/didn't pick up on his description but never pictured a 60+ year old man. In my mind he was a thin 45 y.o. looking, thin faced, long haired man. 

Anyway. Since the Tattered Prince could be pretty much everybody and anybody, and I have no idea who he would be I suspect him to be nobody. I think he is who he says he is, but he's lying about his past. I do think he's from Pentos and was a prince at some point. His backstory/history/story just smelt like a male cow's excrement. 

[Lord Wraith]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He wasn't chosen to die. He was chosen to rule.

But you've got a good point about him being a foil for Illyrio.

Same thing as a Prince of Pentos, first time something goes wrong its all "off with his head."

I hope he does ruin things for Illyrio.

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

I have a feeling we will be seeing a lot more of the Tattered Prince and a lot more of Pentos in TWOW. I also agree the comments above that this prince will be Illyrio's downfall. 

[black_hart]

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He wasn't chosen to die. He was chosen to rule.

Illyrio says:

He presides at ball and feast and rides about the city in a palanquin of ivory and gold. Three heralds go before him with the golden scales of trade, the iron sword of war, and the silver scourge of justice. On the first day of each new year he must deflower the maid of the fields and the maid of the seas. ... Yet should a crop fail or a war be lost, we cut his throat to appease the gods and choose a new prince from amongst the forty families.

Same story is given in A World of Ice and Fire. The prince is a largely ceremonial head of state that figures in fertility rituals and is killed when failing in his magical role. And there is very little opportunity for him to be someone else since the prince is elected amongst a limited number of Pentoshi families.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

12 hours ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

So having finished ADWD a few months back I was left with a lot of questions. One of them being who on earth is the Tattered Prince and why does he want Pentos so bad?

In 262 AC, he was chosen to be the new Prince of Pentos, hours after the previous one had been beheaded. He declined, and left Pentos, eventually founding the Windblown with a few other men. In the present story, he is the only remaining founder of the company.

And it is because of the fact that he was once chosen as the Prince of Pentos, chosen for a mostly ceremonial role where he faces the danger of being sacrificed to the gods once a harvest fails or a war is lost, that he wants Pentos. Rule it on his own, I suppose, without the magisters.

 

12 hours ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

Do you think he'll feature in the Battle of Fire and what will that mean?

Yes. The Windblown changing their alliance will be important for Meereen's chances of winning the battle. We already now one way in which they influenced the battle, from the sample chapters from Winds

Spoiler

when the Second Sons change their alliance too, after learning that the Windblown have gone over to Meereen.

Additionally,

Spoiler

The fact that the Windblown have changed their alliance means that Barristan Selmy has promised them Pentos, which means that Daenerys has to face the decision of not making good on Barristan's promise to Tatters, or going against her original refusal to attack Pentos by making good on Barristan's promise.

 

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

22 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 

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The fact that the Windblown have changed their alliance means that Barristan Selmy has promised them Pentos, which means that Daenerys has to face the decision of not making good on Barristan's promise to Tatters, or going against her original refusal to attack Pentos by making good on Barristan's promise.

So this seems to point to Pentos being visited in The Winds of Winter. If Danny does attack Pentos then it would most certainly set up her war with Aegon in a Dream of Spring.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, black_hart said:

Illyrio says:

He presides at ball and feast and rides about the city in a palanquin of ivory and gold. Three heralds go before him with the golden scales of trade, the iron sword of war, and the silver scourge of justice. On the first day of each new year he must deflower the maid of the fields and the maid of the seas. ... Yet should a crop fail or a war be lost, we cut his throat to appease the gods and choose a new prince from amongst the forty families.

Same story is given in A World of Ice and Fire. The prince is a largely ceremonial head of state that figures in fertility rituals and is killed when failing in his magical role. And there is very little opportunity for him to be someone else since the prince is elected amongst a limited number of Pentoshi families.

Thanks, black_hart. So the question is why on earth does Tatters want the job now?

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thanks, black_hart. So the question is why on earth does Tatters want the job now?

He wants to be dictator of Pentos, rather than the nominal Head of State who gets killed to appease the gods.

I think he'll be very important to the story.  As at the end of ADWD, he's planning to switch sides, and Ser Barristan has promised him Pentos (which Dany refused to do).  This will present her with a big moral dilemma, when she returns.  She'll likely owe a huge debt to the Tattered Prince, but can she pay it at the expense of the people of Pentos?

[Scorpion92]

For some reason, I like the theory of Preston Jacobs where he argues that Quentyn Martell survived the encounter with Rhaegal and now pretends to be Tattered Prince (he is a prince, and very tattered from the burns), while the guy dying on the bed is actually Tattered Prince. Which kinda explains very weird behavior of Gerris Drinkwater and Archibald Yronwood during their conversation with Barristan, they clearly know something the old guy does not.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

7 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

For some reason, I like the theory of Preston Jacobs where he argues that Quentyn Martell survived the encounter with Rhaegal and now pretends to be Tattered Prince (he is a prince, and very tattered from the burns), while the guy dying on the bed is actually Tattered Prince. Which kinda explains very weird behavior of Gerris Drinkwater and Archibald Yronwood during their conversation with Barristan, they clearly know something the old guy does not.

That is a cool idea, but Tatters was born about 239 and Quentyn was born in 281. That's a 42 year age difference. Even with burns, I think someone might notice a difference.

Also I think if Quent survived and is any shape other than at deaths door, he'd have gotten one of those dragons claimed. Though I suppose it's possible that he did and we just don't know about it yet. It would have had to happen off-page.

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

18 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

For some reason, I like the theory of Preston Jacobs where he argues that Quentyn Martell survived the encounter with Rhaegal and now pretends to be Tattered Prince (he is a prince, and very tattered from the burns), while the guy dying on the bed is actually Tattered Prince. Which kinda explains very weird behavior of Gerris Drinkwater and Archibald Yronwood during their conversation with Barristan, they clearly know something the old guy does not.

But why would Quentyn want Pentos?  

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

I found him to be one of the more intriguing characters so I have a pet theory obviously. His story is the truth but he had a plan to take Pentos by force or diplomatic force (a coup kinda thing) those "tatters" are actually victories not from when they were hired as a sells word company but a "present" of removing someone he knew would be an issue b/w him and Pentos. (A group of wealthy merchants who like the current system, a magister who wouldn't lie down at any cost, A General in the army who didn't like him running away)

I think he has friends in many places high and low, and where he goes the smart people and winners follow. Hence the name windblown which obviously will turn the tide for dany.

brown Ben switched very very soon after hearing tatters did

 

[Scorpion92]

46 minutes ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

But why would Quentyn want Pentos?  

I never said anything about Pentos. I believe the reason Martin switched the identities of Tattered Prince and Quentyn for the boy to become more battle hardened and at the head of some army (Windblown) and become "Mors Martell" to Daenerys' "Nymeria". Not in terms of marriage though, just supporting her claim for Iron Throne in exchange for her awarding him Dorne ahead of his sister Arianne, who will be supporting Aegon in the upcoming dance of the dragons.

Also Quentyn is close with Yronwoods, "the Boltons" of Dorne and second most powerful house, so by the time Dany and Aegon engage in Dance of Dragons, he might bring significant Yronwood swords to Dany's side.

At least this is how I see it from story perspective what George might accomplish by keeping Quentyn alive. By all laws in Dorne, Arianne is Quentyn's older sister and heir to Doran Martell. And by marrying Aegon, she is a potential queen of Seven Kingdoms (I believe she will do so). It is a lot of power in her hands. In order to neutralize his sister he will need Dany's help, and to get Dany's help he will need to prove himself in some form or fashion. Becoming a leader of Windblown and bringing them to her side might do the trick.

Dany needs potential allies in Westeros, and Quentyn is a good candidate to sway support in Dorne in her favor. Otherwise, I don't want to believe I wasted so much time reading the chapters about his adventures. Oh well...

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That is a cool idea, but Tatters was born about 239 and Quentyn was born in 281. That's a 42 year age difference. Even with burns, I think someone might notice a difference.

Also I think if Quent survived and is any shape other than at deaths door, he'd have gotten one of those dragons claimed. Though I suppose it's possible that he did and we just don't know about it yet. It would have had to happen off-page.

Well, I think he might conceal his face more after his burns, and we know how Tattered Prince has all those rags around him. I don't know, but it is definitely food for thought.

I don't necessarily believe that he did claim a dragon if he survived per this theory. And this scary experience of boldly trying to tame a dragon which almost cost his life might sober Quentyn a little bit not to do it ever again. But that is just me.