The mystery of the Tattered Prince

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

So this seems to point to Pentos being visited in The Winds of Winter. If Danny does attack Pentos then it would most certainly set up her war with Aegon in a Dream of Spring.

I think solid arguments can be made that we will see our friends from Slaver's Bay hit Volantis, Braavos, Pentos, and maybe even Tyrosh, jointly or separately. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think solid arguments can be made that we will see our friends from Slaver's Bay hit Volantis, Braavos, Pentos, and maybe even Tyrosh, jointly or separately. 

Why Braavos? With their history it seems like the Braavosi would be happy to be on Dany's side against all the slaving cities.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 minute ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Why Braavos? With their history it seems like the Braavosi would be happy to be on Dany's side against all the slaving cities.

I meant "hit" those cities like hitting bars. You know, one night you hit Merlin McFly's and then you hit the Oar House, and maybe the next night after the big game you hit the Nine Oh and swing down and hit the Australian Beach Club. 

Tyrion just has to go to Braavos and learn where whores go, don't you think? 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

25 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I meant "hit" those cities like hitting bars. You know, one night you hit Merlin McFly's and then you hit the Oar House, and maybe the next night after the big game you hit the Nine Oh and swing down and hit the Australian Beach Club. 

Tyrion just has to go to Braavos and learn where whores go, don't you think? 

Oh okay. I wondered if I'd misread that. I totally agree that Tyrion needs to go to Braavos.

[Castellan]

I think the Tattered Prince is just another interesting exile GRRm has made up. He has an extremely good motive for becoming a sellsword.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

8 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

For some reason, I like the theory of Preston Jacobs where he argues that Quentyn Martell survived the encounter with Rhaegal and now pretends to be Tattered Prince (he is a prince, and very tattered from the burns), while the guy dying on the bed is actually Tattered Prince. Which kinda explains very weird behavior of Gerris Drinkwater and Archibald Yronwood during their conversation with Barristan, they clearly know something the old guy does not.

This theory doesn't work for me mostly because the Tattered Prince and Bloodbeard hate each other, both men are very old 

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

7 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

I never said anything about Pentos. I believe the reason Martin switched the identities of Tattered Prince and Quentyn for the boy to become more battle hardened and at the head of some army (Windblown) and become "Mors Martell" to Daenerys' "Nymeria". Not in terms of marriage though, just supporting her claim for Iron Throne in exchange for her awarding him Dorne ahead of his sister Arianne, who will be supporting Aegon in the upcoming dance of the dragons.

Also Quentyn is close with Yronwoods, "the Boltons" of Dorne and second most powerful house, so by the time Dany and Aegon engage in Dance of Dragons, he might bring significant Yronwood swords to Dany's side.

At least this is how I see it from story perspective what George might accomplish by keeping Quentyn alive. By all laws in Dorne, Arianne is Quentyn's older sister and heir to Doran Martell. And by marrying Aegon, she is a potential queen of Seven Kingdoms (I believe she will do so). It is a lot of power in her hands. In order to neutralize his sister he will need Dany's help, and to get Dany's help he will need to prove himself in some form or fashion. Becoming a leader of Windblown and bringing them to her side might do the trick.

Dany needs potential allies in Westeros, and Quentyn is a good candidate to sway support in Dorne in her favor. Otherwise, I don't want to believe I wasted so much time reading the chapters about his adventures. Oh well...

Well, I think he might conceal his face more after his burns, and we know how Tattered Prince has all those rags around him. I don't know, but it is definitely food for thought.

I don't necessarily believe that he did claim a dragon if he survived per this theory. And this scary experience of boldly trying to tame a dragon which almost cost his life might sober Quentyn a little bit not to do it ever again. But that is just me.

He looks like an ordinary man not a burnt man let's not forget Tyrion sees him and finds him an elegant looking old man pretty sure Tyrion would not describe a 20 year old burnt Dornishman as elegant. Also how much time has passed ? Everyone knows all about the Tattered Prince. Think about the time line Martell would have to recover from being nearly burnt to death rally a sellsword company win a bunch of Battles and meet a bunch of people all inside a half a year. 

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I meant "hit" those cities like hitting bars. You know, one night you hit Merlin McFly's and then you hit the Oar House, and maybe the next night after the big game you hit the Nine Oh and swing down and hit the Australian Beach Club. 

Tyrion just has to go to Braavos and learn where whores go, don't you think? 

Whores go to Lys

[Lost Melnibonean]

44 minutes ago, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

Whores go to Lys

And the Happy Port. 

[DigUpHerBones]

the only evidence i have is the "sad eyes" comment used to describe both.

but my gut has been telling me he is Selmy's brother.

hard to deny Tatters pattern of speech is that of Westerosi high born.

[Seams]

Some interesting ideas here. I love the idea of Quentyn tradings places with the Tattered Prince after a tragic dragon mishap. Ironically, that would be the fulfillment of a different sort of myth, the young king (or prince) taking the place of the elderly king (or prince). After all the effort that the Tattered Prince went through to avoid the "Corn King" fate as the chosen Prince of Pentos, this seems like the kind of literary irony GRRM might enjoy.

I also love the idea of a secret brother for Barristan Selmy, @DigUpHerBones. Lots of possibilities there.

For what it's worth, puns and wordplay may provide some clues about the Tattered Prince. When you make lace, you are "tatting." So GRRM may be telling us that the Tattered Prince is some kind of symbolic lacemaker. Seems fitting, somehow, with the collection of scraps of fabric he has put together as trophies of his battles. (My reading of sewing symbolism in the series is that it represents efforts to build up a community or to hold the fabric of society together.)

On the Puns and Wordplay thread, we've just been discussing Myrish Lace. A couple of knowledgeable people have said that anything from Myr represents deception but the "myr" root word also relates to vision and seeing. (Think of a possible connection for Meera Reed there.) So Myrish Lace might be fabric you can see through, but it is also used to make veils that hide things. Maybe Princess Myrcella, whose name contains all the letters for Myr and Lace is part of this motif. If so, the idea of a Quentyn Martell / Tattered Prince connection could really enrich the lace symbolism.

Maybe the Tattered Prince is making an alternative to Myrish Lace: Pentos Lace. Would this be the opposite of deception, or a new and different kind of deception?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And the Happy Port. 

And to Littlefinger.

[rotting sea cow]

14 hours ago, Daemon Blackfyre IV said:

Whores go to Lys

 

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And the Happy Port. 

 

6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And to Littlefinger.

whores after whoring, go to their families, to feed their children and maybe to dream stop whoring. And whores in Lys, Volantis, etc. are not prostitutes, they are sex slaves, they aren't even allowed to have these dreams. Tyrion doesn't know that, because he never cared.

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

9 hours ago, DigUpHerBones said:

the only evidence i have is the "sad eyes" comment used to describe both.

but my gut has been telling me he is Selmy's brother.

hard to deny Tatters pattern of speech is that of Westerosi high born.

Hmm this is interesting. But do we have any more evidence to back this theory up?

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And to Littlefinger.

Poor Jeyne

[UnFit Finlay]

On 16/02/2017 at 2:59 PM, SeanF said:

He wants to be dictator of Pentos, rather than the nominal Head of State who gets killed to appease the gods.

I think he'll be very important to the story.  As at the end of ADWD, he's planning to switch sides, and Ser Barristan has promised him Pentos (which Dany refused to do).  This will present her with a big moral dilemma, when she returns.  She'll likely owe a huge debt to the Tattered Prince, but can she pay it at the expense of the people of Pentos?

I've speculated about this before but I think Tyrion's presence, and knowledge of Illyrio's real plans for Dany, will be the game changer there. I mean, he gave Aegon literally everything while Viserys and Daenerys struggled to survive. He convinced Viserys that selling Dany to Drogo was the only way to get *his* crown, while secretly backing Aegon the entire time. Tyrion knows this and he's very unlikely to keep it to himself at a time where he'll need to prove his loyalty to her.

I'd even go as far to say that "the Usurper's Knives" that kept them on the run for so long were an invention of Illyrio and Varys, designed to stop Viserys settling in one place, and perhaps making some real friends. After all *we* know that there were no assassins after them until Dany became pregnant. More to the point, so does Barristan, since he was on Robert's Small Council.

Personally I think Dany will attack Pentos. Aegon, who has no idea what Illyrio really is, will try and defend his benefactor from the "Mad Queen" and we're at the Dance With Dragons. If that happens, Doran will also have a moral dilemma since Quentyn staked his honour on Dorne giving Pentos to Tatters after his death. If Arianne marries Aegon then Doran will have to choose between supporting his daughter or dishonouring his dead son.

I think that's Tatters contribution to the story. A minor character with a major impact.

[The Fattest Leech]

The Tattered Prince is the Mance of Essos, from dress, to speech, to leadership of different companies (clans). So we may have to figure out what path the Mance is on in order to develop a good picture of the TP, even though the Tattered Prince may have one more flip-flop under his cloak.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

22 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I've speculated about this before but I think Tyrion's presence, and knowledge of Illyrio's real plans for Dany, will be the game changer there. I mean, he gave Aegon literally everything while Viserys and Daenerys struggled to survive. He convinced Viserys that selling Dany to Drogo was the only way to get *his* crown, while secretly backing Aegon the entire time. Tyrion knows this and he's very unlikely to keep it to himself at a time where he'll need to prove his loyalty to her.

I'd even go as far to say that "the Usurper's Knives" that kept them on the run for so long were an invention of Illyrio and Varys, designed to stop Viserys settling in one place, and perhaps making some real friends. After all *we* know that there were no assassins after them until Dany became pregnant. More to the point, so does Barristan, since he was on Robert's Small Council.

Personally I think Dany will attack Pentos. Aegon, who has no idea what Illyrio really is, will try and defend his benefactor from the "Mad Queen" and we're at the Dance With Dragons. If that happens, Doran will also have a moral dilemma since Quentyn staked his honour on Dorne giving Pentos to Tatters after his death. If Arianne marries Aegon then Doran will have to choose between supporting his daughter or dishonouring his dead son.

I think that's Tatters contribution to the story. A minor character with a major impact.

Actually we don't know that. We know Viserys was a bit paranoid, but that doesn't mean nobody was out to get him. And who said the orders would come from the Small Council? Tywin took out two Targaryen children before to gain Robert's favor. How much more incentive might he have when his own grandson's claim to the throne might at some point be threatened by Viserys?

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Tattered Prince is the Mance of Essos, from dress, to speech, to leadership of different companies (clans). So we may have to figure out what path the Mance is on in order to develop a good picture of the TP, even though the Tattered Prince may have one more flip-flop under his cloak.

Have you read my Mance piece? I think there's a decent chance he's descended from Bloodraven. 

Looking at Targaryen princesses whose later lives are unknown to us, there are three who could conceivably (no pun intended) have been mother to Tatters. Any of them could have married a nice man in Pentos. Aegon V's sister Daella is known to have married and had children, but there doesn't seem to be any info on who she married or where she lived. She was 40 the year Tatters should have been born. Aegon V's youngest sister, Rhae was in her 30s, and there's no info on her life. Last we have Daeron the Drunken's little girl Vaella. She was described as simple. Maybe the family decided a quiet life in Essos was just the thing for her. She was 17 the year of Tatters' birth.

In looking at Rohanne Webber-Lannister, she's in her 50s when she disappears, but she also has a one year old son at that point. I'd put her as a longshot at best. And this is all on the very big IF of if anyone of importance is Tatters' mother.

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Actually we don't know that. We know Viserys was a bit paranoid, but that doesn't mean nobody was out to get him. And who said the orders would come from the Small Council? Tywin took out two Targaryen children before to gain Robert's favor. How much more incentive might he have when his own grandson's claim to the throne might at some point be threatened by Viserys?

Have you read my Mance piece? I think there's a decent chance he's descended from Bloodraven. 

Looking at Targaryen princesses whose later lives are unknown to us, there are three who could conceivably (no pun intended) have been mother to Tatters. Any of them could have married a nice man in Pentos. Aegon V's sister Daella is known to have married and had children, but there doesn't seem to be any info on who she married or where she lived. She was 40 the year Tatters should have been born. Aegon V's youngest sister, Rhae was in her 30s, and there's no info on her life. Last we have Daeron the Drunken's little girl Vaella. She was described as simple. Maybe the family decided a quiet life in Essos was just the thing for her. She was 17 the year of Tatters' birth.

In looking at Rohanne Webber-Lannister, she's in her 50s when she disappears, but she also has a one year old son at that point. I'd put her as a longshot at best. And this is all on the very big IF of if anyone of importance is Tatters' mother.

I'm not sure that I have??? I will check for it in a bit unless you can send me a link? I have heard snippets of a Mance/Bloodraven theory, but only a line or two in responses to other posts.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

I'm not sure that I have??? I will check for it in a bit unless you can send me a link? I have heard snippets of a Mance/Bloodraven theory, but only a line or two in responses to other posts.

I'll send it to you. It's archived now but I've done some work on updating it so I may do a new post in the future.