Robert Baratheon's hammer Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 23 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said: I've speculated about this before but I think Tyrion's presence, and knowledge of Illyrio's real plans for Dany, will be the game changer there. I mean, he gave Aegon literally everything while Viserys and Daenerys struggled to survive. He convinced Viserys that selling Dany to Drogo was the only way to get *his* crown, while secretly backing Aegon the entire time. Tyrion knows this and he's very unlikely to keep it to himself at a time where he'll need to prove his loyalty to her. I'd even go as far to say that "the Usurper's Knives" that kept them on the run for so long were an invention of Illyrio and Varys, designed to stop Viserys settling in one place, and perhaps making some real friends. After all *we* know that there were no assassins after them until Dany became pregnant. More to the point, so does Barristan, since he was on Robert's Small Council. Personally I think Dany will attack Pentos. Aegon, who has no idea what Illyrio really is, will try and defend his benefactor from the "Mad Queen" and we're at the Dance With Dragons. If that happens, Doran will also have a moral dilemma since Quentyn staked his honour on Dorne giving Pentos to Tatters after his death. If Arianne marries Aegon then Doran will have to choose between supporting his daughter or dishonouring his dead son. I think that's Tatters contribution to the story. A minor character with a major impact. Yeah I agree that Tyrion will cause Illyrio major problems when he finally meets Danny. Once he tells her about Aegon she'll come to the realization that Illyrio lied to Viserys and never intended for him to be king, thus awakening the dragon in her. By this point she may have the Dothraki army by her side, so, she'll seek to gain revenge over Illyrio by taking Pentos and giving it to the Tattered Prince. Then she will finally sail to westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindsayLohan Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Interesting about Dany sacking Pentos in revenge for Ilyrio's dealings with (f)Aegon. Ilyrio is not a Pentoshi noble, and no one from his line would be eligible for this ridiculous "Prince of Pentos" role. Ilyrio rose in wealth and social esteem enough to marry a cousin of nobility, but when she died and he married a whore he was banned from even entering noble grounds, much less a leadership role. Surely his wealth and power allows him to make behind-the-scenes moves, but he is definitely a social outcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnFit Finlay Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Actually we don't know that. We know Viserys was a bit paranoid, but that doesn't mean nobody was out to get him. And who said the orders would come from the Small Council? Tywin took out two Targaryen children before to gain Robert's favor. How much more incentive might he have when his own grandson's claim to the throne might at some point be threatened by Viserys? It's possible, I suppose, but the discussion between the Small Council makes me certain that any knives didn't belong to Robert at least. I don't see Tywin doing it either, mainly because I think he'd have succeeded. Not the type of guy to tolerate failure is Tywin, and certainly not for over a decade. I don't think Viserys was paranoid to be honest. I think he and Dany were being played by Illyrio and Varys the entire time. Everything from the various houses that they were given food, shelter and false hope in, to the belief that Robert had assassins after them, was orchestrated by Varys and Illyrio, solely to keep them alone, alive, desperate and scared, until the time was ripe. After all, whatever plans they had would've been toast if Viserys either died or just settled down and decided to be a blacksmith or something instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 18 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said: It's possible, I suppose, but the discussion between the Small Council makes me certain that any knives didn't belong to Robert at least. I don't see Tywin doing it either, mainly because I think he'd have succeeded. Not the type of guy to tolerate failure is Tywin, and certainly not for over a decade. I don't think Viserys was paranoid to be honest. I think he and Dany were being played by Illyrio and Varys the entire time. Everything from the various houses that they were given food, shelter and false hope in, to the belief that Robert had assassins after them, was orchestrated by Varys and Illyrio, solely to keep them alone, alive, desperate and scared, until the time was ripe. After all, whatever plans they had would've been toast if Viserys either died or just settled down and decided to be a blacksmith or something instead. Good point there. But Tywin is hardly the only guy who might have done such a thing. And who knows who all Viserys angered over the years. Who gave them false hope? The only instance I remember that might count is Illyrio claiming that there are people in Westeros who want the Targaryens back and will rise to support Viserys. For all we know that might be true, though I wouldn't bet Illyrio would know if it's true. Would have been a better plan to keep them in comfort so they didn't feel an immediate need to go back to Westeros, and educate them so that they understood the point of waiting. I'm not sure whether you're giving Illyrio and Varys more credit than I do, or less. Not necessarily. They've got Aegon, and they still had Dany. But I just got a hilarious visual of Viserys trying to be a blacksmith. Thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonkers Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 On 19/02/2017 at 5:59 AM, Robert Baratheon's hammer said: Yeah I agree that Tyrion will cause Illyrio major problems when he finally meets Danny. Once he tells her about Aegon she'll come to the realization that Illyrio lied to Viserys and never intended for him to be king, thus awakening the dragon in her. By this point she may have the Dothraki army by her side, so, she'll seek to gain revenge over Illyrio by taking Pentos and giving it to the Tattered Prince. Then she will finally sail to westeros. I love this idea!! On 19/02/2017 at 6:25 AM, LindsayLohan said: Interesting about Dany sacking Pentos in revenge for Ilyrio's dealings with (f)Aegon. Ilyrio is not a Pentoshi noble, and no one from his line would be eligible for this ridiculous "Prince of Pentos" role. Ilyrio rose in wealth and social esteem enough to marry a cousin of nobility, but when she died and he married a whore he was banned from even entering noble grounds, much less a leadership role. Surely his wealth and power allows him to make behind-the-scenes moves, but he is definitely a social outcast. Very true, seems like a nice subtle backstory to make the above totally possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortguy457 Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 My god if George focuses any more time on a character JUST introduced with only two books left to go im going to be pissed. And dont even get me started on Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Baratheon's hammer Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 hour ago, shortguy457 said: My god if George focuses any more time on a character JUST introduced with only two books left to go im going to be pissed. And dont even get me started on Aegon. Elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No one is here Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Some really good ideas and thoughts! Thanks to all! Tatters is one of my favorite mysteries of the Essos plot. I like the idea that Tyrion is the driving force for a potential attack on Pentos. I'm not sure that I agree that that's where the second Dance will kick off, but I'm ok with it if that is how it ends up going down. Which brings up the questions: Are the GC in the employ of Illyrio (which I believe) or JC/Aegon? And, if Illyrio is who the person that has the contract with them, would he (Illyrio) abandon his plan for Aegon and re-call the GC if Pentos does come under attack and/or he becomes threatened? And, would the GC honor that call if they are already settled in Westeros after the journeys and battles it took to get there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Baratheon's hammer Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, No one is here said: Some really good ideas and thoughts! Thanks to all! Tatters is one of my favorite mysteries of the Essos plot. I like the idea that Tyrion is the driving force for a potential attack on Pentos. I'm not sure that I agree that that's where the second Dance will kick off, but I'm ok with it if that is how it ends up going down. Which brings up the questions: Are the GC in the employ of Illyrio (which I believe) or JC/Aegon? And, if Illyrio is who the person that has the contract with them, would he (Illyrio) abandon his plan for Aegon and re call the GC if Pentos does come under attack and/or he becomes threatened? And, would the GC honor that call if they are already settled in Westeros after the journeys and battles it took to get there? Not sure Illyrio will still be in Pentos by this point. If he is then the golden company will not abandon Westeros to help him especially if they are in a winning position. The majority of the sellswords from the golden company are exiled Westeros men ( Correct me if i'm wrong) anyway so I don't think they would abandon it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 hour ago, No one is here said: Some really good ideas and thoughts! Thanks to all! Tatters is one of my favorite mysteries of the Essos plot. I like the idea that Tyrion is the driving force for a potential attack on Pentos. I'm not sure that I agree that that's where the second Dance will kick off, but I'm ok with it if that is how it ends up going down. Which brings up the questions: Are the GC in the employ of Illyrio (which I believe) or JC/Aegon? And, if Illyrio is who the person that has the contract with them, would he (Illyrio) abandon his plan for Aegon and re-call the GC if Pentos does come under attack and/or he becomes threatened? And, would the GC honor that call if they are already settled in Westeros after the journeys and battles it took to get there? Illyrio would not recall the Golden Company to defend Pentos. His sway over the Golden Company is the contract writ in blood--to seize the Iron Throne for a Blackfyre, not to defend Pentos or Illyrio's manse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 On 2/17/2017 at 6:58 PM, UnFit Finlay said: I've speculated about this before but I think Tyrion's presence, and knowledge of Illyrio's real plans for Dany, will be the game changer there. I mean, he gave Aegon literally everything while Viserys and Daenerys struggled to survive. He convinced Viserys that selling Dany to Drogo was the only way to get *his* crown, while secretly backing Aegon the entire time. Tyrion knows this and he's very unlikely to keep it to himself at a time where he'll need to prove his loyalty to her. I'd even go as far to say that "the Usurper's Knives" that kept them on the run for so long were an invention of Illyrio and Varys, designed to stop Viserys settling in one place, and perhaps making some real friends. After all *we* know that there were no assassins after them until Dany became pregnant. More to the point, so does Barristan, since he was on Robert's Small Council. Personally I think Dany will attack Pentos. Aegon, who has no idea what Illyrio really is, will try and defend his benefactor from the "Mad Queen" and we're at the Dance With Dragons. If that happens, Doran will also have a moral dilemma since Quentyn staked his honour on Dorne giving Pentos to Tatters after his death. If Arianne marries Aegon then Doran will have to choose between supporting his daughter or dishonouring his dead son. I think that's Tatters contribution to the story. A minor character with a major impact. Despite Aegon, he's actually given her a lot. Shelter, the three Dragon eggs, and three ships with their contents. She still owes him a great deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Baratheon's hammer Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 27 minutes ago, SeanF said: Despite Aegon, he's actually given her a lot. Shelter, the three Dragon eggs, and three ships with their contents. She still owes him a great deal. For sure he's given her some very very important items but he also lied to her brother which eventually lead to his death. The dragon eggs are interesting because I'm not sure if Illyrio really thought they would hatch but something was meant to happen in Asshai. We'll probably find out more about Illyrio and Pentos through the Tattered Prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said: For sure he's given her some very very important items but he also lied to her brother which eventually lead to his death. The dragon eggs are interesting because I'm not sure if Illyrio really thought they would hatch but something was meant to happen in Asshai. We'll probably find out more about Illyrio and Pentos through the Tattered Prince. I doubt if Illyrio ever thought they would hatch, but they were extremely valuable in their own right. Viserys got himself killed through his own stupidity, not Illyrio's actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Baratheon's hammer Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 12 minutes ago, SeanF said: I doubt if Illyrio ever thought they would hatch, but they were extremely valuable in their own right. Viserys got himself killed through his own stupidity, not Illyrio's actions. Viserys craziness did not help but you have to remember that Jorah and one of Danny's girls who were Illyrio's cronies ( can't remember the girl's name ) were ill advising him which fueled his madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnFit Finlay Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 On 18/02/2017 at 10:16 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said: Good point there. But Tywin is hardly the only guy who might have done such a thing. And who knows who all Viserys angered over the years. Who gave them false hope? The only instance I remember that might count is Illyrio claiming that there are people in Westeros who want the Targaryens back and will rise to support Viserys. For all we know that might be true, though I wouldn't bet Illyrio would know if it's true. Would have been a better plan to keep them in comfort so they didn't feel an immediate need to go back to Westeros, and educate them so that they understood the point of waiting. I'm not sure whether you're giving Illyrio and Varys more credit than I do, or less. Not necessarily. They've got Aegon, and they still had Dany. But I just got a hilarious visual of Viserys trying to be a blacksmith. Thanks for that. No problem. By false hope I mean the string of powerful people across Essos that were willing to listen to Viserys pleas, promise him help and then not deliver. I could be misunderstanding Dany's memories of it but it seemed to me that, while they did go hungry and have to sell Rhaella's crown, there was always somebody stopping them from giving up all hope. Nah - I think keeping them poor and homeless was the smart move. IF they'd been educated and comfortable then Robert definitely would've had them taken out and questions would be asked about who was protecting them and why. An educated Viserys might also have been a good guy, which wasn't part of their plan either. They needed him poor, broken and desperate enough to sell his sister to Drogo. Otherwise there's no plan. 2 hours ago, SeanF said: Despite Aegon, he's actually given her a lot. Shelter, the three Dragon eggs, and three ships with their contents. She still owes him a great deal. True but I think the phrase "It's the thought that counts" applies here. None of those things were intended for her well being - He flat out said to Tyrion that he expected her to die. She and Viserys were just a pawns in a larger game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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