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Questions about Manderlys move to the North


Stormking902

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From what we know house Manderly was once a very powerful house in the Reach apparently powerful enough that house Gardner felt threatened of there growing influence, with a gentle nudge from the Peakes of course.

My questions are........

 

1) How much time could the Manderlys possibly have to pack up all there wealth and head north before the Gardner army had them trapped in there castle of Dunstonbury? 

2) Where did the Manderlys keep there fleet they used to head North in? you wouldnt think the Manderlys would have a huge fleet since it wouldnt be needed from Dunstonbury as its on a river not an ocean coast correct? 

3) How was the arrangement with house Stark reached its not like the Manderlys just sailed upon the White Knife and were welcomed with open arms out of the blue, the Manderlys would have to have a great deal of time to send ravens or riders to the North to ask there permission then pack all your wealth and men at arms up on ships and sail north. 

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1) The Manderlys presumably weren't able to bring all of their wealth with them. But in comparison to the North, they would probably have seemed rich anyway.

2) The Manderlys fled a thousand years ago. Presumably the fleet fell by the wayside after the North's war with the Vale. The North had no need for a fleet, and the Manderlys were probably busy building up White Harbour.

3) That's something I've wondered too. How exactly did the Manderlys decide to go all the way to the North, and why did the Starks agree to take in a prominent yet fugitive family who worship the Seven instead of the old gods.

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From the hints we have, it seems the Manderlys bought their place in the North with gold. So, some enterprising Stark King probably saw the benefit of developing the Wolf's Den into a larger settlement, and also did not give two hoots about the potential enmity of the Gardeners.

So it was a mutually beneficial arrangement. Personally, I don't expect the Manderly's brought even 1% of their population to the North. Most probably it was their personal knights and armed retainers, their household and as much gold as they could fit in their ships. So it wasn't a Nymeria sized fleet. Probably 50 longhips or the like. Maybe a couple of thousand people altogether. Or perhaps only a few hundred in total, even.

 

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

From the hints we have, it seems the Manderlys bought their place in the North with gold. So, some enterprising Stark King probably saw the benefit of developing the Wolf's Den into a larger settlement, and also did not give two hoots about the potential enmity of the Gardeners.

So it was a mutually beneficial arrangement. Personally, I don't expect the Manderly's brought even 1% of their population to the North. Most probably it was their personal knights and armed retainers, their household and as much gold as they could fit in their ships. So it wasn't a Nymeria sized fleet. Probably 50 longhips or the like. Maybe a couple of thousand people altogether. Or perhaps only a few hundred in total, even.

 

This is solid.  I like to look at the Starks personal household as a "for example".  Ned has around 100 actual men-at-arms in his employ, with Jory as captain of the guards, Rodrick as master at arms.  There are commonfolk included in the Starks' retinue:  A septa, Old Nan, Vayon Poole... People like this would travel with Manderly's, but no extensive army, as the army would have been the smallfolk, who would have remained in the Reach.  The Wolf's Den was not very large, based on Davos' description.  I would think a familial migration, with armed guards/soldiers plus household servants would number in the 100-200 range, tops. 

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2 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

This is solid.  I like to look at the Starks personal household as a "for example".  Ned has around 100 actual men-at-arms in his employ, with Jory as captain of the guards, Rodrick as master at arms.  There are commonfolk included in the Starks' retinue:  A septa, Old Nan, Vayon Poole... People like this would travel with Manderly's, but no extensive army, as the army would have been the smallfolk, who would have remained in the Reach.  The Wolf's Den was not very large, based on Davos' description.  I would think a familial migration, with armed guards/soldiers plus household servants would number in the 100-200 range, tops. 

Well, the Winterfell garrison at the start of the series seems an anomaly. Roose Bolton had a personal garrison of 600 at the Dreadfort by comparison. And Winterfell is a massive complex. From the Winterfell layout map on the Wiki, the perimeter Wall appears to be easily 1000m in circumference. If so, then a garrison of 100 - working in two shifts of 50 each - would only give you one man posted on every 20m of the wall, even if they are all on perimeter duty, which would be unlikely.

To seriously protect a perimeter wall of that extent, you probably need more like 500 soldiers on the wall, and even then you could not really cover the entire perimeter with any degree of depth. Even if you had 1000 men permanently stationed on the wall, then you would only have 1 man per metre during an all out assault. Which seems kind of flimsy if you are repelling hordes of besieging troops trying to scale the walls.

And consider that this garrison would be for more than just defensive purposes. It would be for patrolling the surrounding countryside, and executing the orders of the ruler of the North, wherever he might decide to venture or intervene. A garrison of 100 is totally unrealistic. Even 300 is unrealistic. 500 would seem an absolute minimum.

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, the Winterfell garrison at the start of the series seems an anomaly. Roose Bolton had a personal garrison of 600 at the Dreadfort by comparison. And Winterfell is a massive complex. From the Winterfell layout map on the Wiki, the perimeter Wall appears to be easily 1000m in circumference. If so, then a garrison of 100 - working in two shifts of 50 each - would only give you one man posted on every 20m of the wall, even if they are all on perimeter duty, which would be unlikely.

To seriously protect a perimeter wall of that extent, you probably need more like 500 soldiers on the wall, and even then you could not really cover the entire perimeter with any degree of depth. Even if you had 1000 men permanently stationed on the wall, then you would only have 1 man per metre during an all out assault. Which seems kind of flimsy if you are repelling hordes of besieging troops trying to scale the walls.

And consider that this garrison would be for more than just defensive purposes. It would be for patrolling the surrounding countryside, and executing the orders of the ruler of the North, wherever he might decide to venture or intervene. A garrison of 100 is totally unrealistic. Even 300 is unrealistic. 500 would seem an absolute minimum.

I don't think they're going to need one man for every 20 meters of wall during peacetime, dude.  I get that there is a military garrison to maintain, but 500 is kind of going overboard.  The time it would take to mobilize 500 experienced infantry would be basically nothing for someone like Eddard Stark. 

Think Steelshanks Walton:  He's a captain, in command of a small company, in service to Roose Bolton, but as Jaime notes, "Men like Walton would kill at their lord's command, rape when their blood was up after battle, and plunder wherever they could, but once the war was done they would go back to their homes, trade their spears for hoes, wed their neighbors' daughters, and raise a pack of squalling children."  Walton is a leader in wartime, farmer in peacetime.

There is no need for a retinue of 500, even at Winterfell. 

As it applies to the Manderlys, they aren't taking every farmer with a sword or spear from the Reach to the Wolf's Den.  Westerosi smallfolk are closer to serfs than anything else, their loyalties lie to whomever rules the land the smallfolk work. 

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1 hour ago, LindsayLohan said:

I don't think they're going to need one man for every 20 meters of wall during peacetime, dude.  I get that there is a military garrison to maintain, but 500 is kind of going overboard.  The time it would take to mobilize 500 experienced infantry would be basically nothing for someone like Eddard Stark. 

Think Steelshanks Walton:  He's a captain, in command of a small company, in service to Roose Bolton, but as Jaime notes, "Men like Walton would kill at their lord's command, rape when their blood was up after battle, and plunder wherever they could, but once the war was done they would go back to their homes, trade their spears for hoes, wed their neighbors' daughters, and raise a pack of squalling children."  Walton is a leader in wartime, farmer in peacetime.

There is no need for a retinue of 500, even at Winterfell. 

As it applies to the Manderlys, they aren't taking every farmer with a sword or spear from the Reach to the Wolf's Den.  Westerosi smallfolk are closer to serfs than anything else, their loyalties lie to whomever rules the land the smallfolk work. 

Oh I agree with the Manderlys bringing only a tiny number North.

Regarding the Winterfell guard, well, I'm not sure. 100 sounds a bit low for a castle the size of Winterfell, and with the administrative duties required as the seat of the ruler of the entire North. Then again, Rodrik was able to gather 600 men from Winterfell's surroundings in short order, even after Winterfell's main forces were with Robb. So I guess in wartime the garrison would be a lot higher than in peacetime.

Still, Jory and Rodrik Cassel don't exactly inspire a lot of confidence as military commanders of Winterfell either. So it seems Martin just deliberately chose to depict Eddard as generally neglecting the potency of his military forces.

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Another question I was wondering is what gave king Gardener the right to attack the Manderlys ? You cant just attack your bannerman because they are growing to strong and rich that doesnt make sense to me. Imagine the Targs attacking house Valaryeon because they were the richest house in Westeros and on paper superior to the Targs.......... There has to be more to the story that we the reader are not aware of. 

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8 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Another question I was wondering is what gave king Gardener the right to attack the Manderlys ? You cant just attack your bannerman because they are growing to strong and rich that doesnt make sense to me. Imagine the Targs attacking house Valaryeon because they were the richest house in Westeros and on paper superior to the Targs.......... There has to be more to the story that we the reader are not aware of. 

Well, you can, on some trumped up pretext. Especially if you have other bannermen who are jealous of them and therefore quite eager to support you in your endeavour.

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5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

From the hints we have, it seems the Manderlys bought their place in the North with gold. So, some enterprising Stark King probably saw the benefit of developing the Wolf's Den into a larger settlement, and also did not give two hoots about the potential enmity of the Gardeners.

So it was a mutually beneficial arrangement. Personally, I don't expect the Manderly's brought even 1% of their population to the North. Most probably it was their personal knights and armed retainers, their household and as much gold as they could fit in their ships. So it wasn't a Nymeria sized fleet. Probably 50 longhips or the like. Maybe a couple of thousand people altogether. Or perhaps only a few hundred in total, even.

 

I like this theory a lot, its such a shame we know so little about the Stark Kings, especially since from the little bits we know they had a very different mentality from the current generation.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Nocturne said:

I like this theory a lot, its such a shame we know so little about the Stark Kings, especially since from the little bits we know they had a very different mentality from the current generation.

 

 

Indeed. Ned was quite atypical for a traditional Stark. Of course, there might have been a Ned once every century for all we know, giving us up to 80 Ned type Stark rulers over the course of 8000 years. So not necessarily unprecedented. But in general they would have been the less noteworthy ones, who didn't achieve great deeds unless pushed by circumstances and probably not remembered by history.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

1) How much time could the Manderlys possibly have to pack up all there wealth and head north before the Gardner army had them trapped in there castle of Dunstonbury? 

One assumes this was some sort of banishment/exile involving terms, not exactly that they were actually driven out of the Reach by force as hunted animals. Keep in mind that the feuds in the Reach are traditionally much less deadly than those in the other kingdoms.

12 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

2) Where did the Manderlys keep there fleet they used to head North in? you wouldnt think the Manderlys would have a huge fleet since it wouldnt be needed from Dunstonbury as its on a river not an ocean coast correct? 

We assume the Manderlys were allowed to take their fleet and all/most of their movable valuables with them. Considering that they must have been insanely rich in comparison to the rather poor lords in the North they should have had more than enough wealth to actually buy the goodwill of the Lords of Winterfell. Presumably they tried other kingdoms without success before they ended up in the North. Essos might not have been an option at the height of Valyrian power.

12 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

3) How was the arrangement with house Stark reached its not like the Manderlys just sailed upon the White Knife and were welcomed with open arms out of the blue, the Manderlys would have to have a great deal of time to send ravens or riders to the North to ask there permission then pack all your wealth and men at arms up on ships and sail north. 

One assumes they either did actually sail up their ships up the Bite asking for permission to set themselves up there or they took refuge at another place for a time until they had word from Winterfell that they were welcome up there.

I personally prefer the former. I think the Gardeners gave them terms to pack their things and leave the Reach, and they had to go without knowing were exactly they could go.

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I almost want a short story about the Manderlys' arrival to the North. Like we have them barely escape with their lives and only some of their wealth. Then they sail around Dorne, send an emissary to Storm's End, get rebuffed, avoid the Riverlands because Riverlands, sail up to Gulltown, get driven off, try to get to Essos, but get blown off course, realize that the North is their last option, and having lost all pride and assumptions about themselves, they sail up to the Wolf's Den and quickly bend the knee to the first Stark forces that arrive. Then we see them prove their loyalty to the Starks and start building White Harbour with their blessing.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes this was some sort of banishment/exile involving terms, not exactly that they were actually driven out of the Reach by force as hunted animals. Keep in mind that the feuds in the Reach are traditionally much less deadly than those in the other kingdoms.

We assume the Manderlys were allowed to take their fleet and all/most of their movable valuables with them. Considering that they must have been insanely rich in comparison to the rather poor lords in the North they should have had more than enough wealth to actually buy the goodwill of the Lords of Winterfell. Presumably they tried other kingdoms without success before they ended up in the North. Essos might not have been an option at the height of Valyrian power.

One assumes they either did actually sail up their ships up the Bite asking for permission to set themselves up there or they took refuge at another place for a time until they had word from Winterfell that they were welcome up there.

I personally prefer the former. I think the Gardeners gave them terms to pack their things and leave the Reach, and they had to go without knowing were exactly they could go.

Ah that didn't take long. "insanely rich compared to the rather poor lords in the North".  And there we have the expected disparaging remark about all things North yet again. Might as well have called them "poor sods" instead of "poor lords". Your real meaning would have been better conveyed.

We have no idea if the Manderlys were "insanely rich" compared to the Northern lords. They did not have White Harbor, back then. They were obviously rich, but of course you have to portray it as if these fabulous beings of wealth and means arrived among the poor, backward savages of the North and awed them with their wealth.

Come now. The Manderlys are richer today than when they arrived in the North. They had the Wolf's Den back then. Now they have a city of tens of thousands of people. More than they had in the Reach, in fact.

But, we all know you need barely the slightest pretext to display your disdainful view of all things Northern.

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18 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ah that didn't take long. "insanely rich compared to the rather poor lords in the North".  And there we have the expected disparaging remark about all things North yet again. Might as well have called them "poor sods" instead of "poor lords". Your real meaning would have been better conveyed.

The North is simply poorer than the Reach. Just get over it. 

By comparison, nobody would have allowed the Umbers to build themselves some city down in the South because they could not have paid for that. Neither for the charter nor for the actual building of the city. The Starks did not build White Harbor for the Manderlys, the Manderlys did. Presumably with the coin they brought with them from the Reach.

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We have no idea if the Manderlys were "insanely rich" compared to the Northern lords. They did not have White Harbor, back then. They were obviously rich, but of course you have to portray it as if these fabulous beings of wealth and means arrived among the poor, backward savages of the North and awed them with their wealth.

We know the Manderlys had vast lands across the Mander and there is talk that the Mander got their name from them rather than the other way around. That is enough for me. On average, the Lords of the Reach are all richer than the Lords of the North, and the Manderlys weren't exactly average Lords of the Reach. They were on the level of the Hightowers, Redwynes, and Peakes, very much at the top of the ladder in the Reach.

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Come now. The Manderlys are richer today than when they arrived in the North. They had the Wolf's Den back then. Now they have a city of tens of thousands of people. More than they had in the Reach, in fact.

Can you prove that? No. True, the Manderlys now have a city but we don't know whether a city in the North provides them with as much revenues as their lands and castles once did in the South. The Redwynes don't have a city, either, yet they still have the largest fleet in Westeros and are thus richer than the Manderlys and Starks both.

And considering that the Manderlys actually brought quite a few people with them to the North - they did not show there only with a few people or else they could not have kept their traditions and beliefs up in this foreign country - they must have had quite a few ships. And if they had not a lot of coin to buy for the building of White Harbor there would have been no city there. They were building in stone.

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6 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Another question I was wondering is what gave king Gardener the right to attack the Manderlys ? You cant just attack your bannerman because they are growing to strong and rich that doesnt make sense to me. Imagine the Targs attacking house Valaryeon because they were the richest house in Westeros and on paper superior to the Targs.......... There has to be more to the story that we the reader are not aware of. 

They have the right because they are  kings, and as long as they have the support of their bannermen, they can do as they please 

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The Manderlys may claim to worship the seven BUT!!!! they are the SOLE remaining knights of the greenhand ie loyal to the ancient "god" Garth Greenhands"

They may not worship the Old gods, but they do worship the gods of the first men

 

Garth (earth and fertility)

 the seas god eg Neptune's trident and also very much associates with the name Manus

 

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21 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Another question I was wondering is what gave king Gardener the right to attack the Manderlys ? You cant just attack your bannerman because they are growing to strong and rich that doesnt make sense to me. Imagine the Targs attacking house Valaryeon because they were the richest house in Westeros and on paper superior to the Targs.......... There has to be more to the story that we the reader are not aware of. 

All the wiki says is that the Peakes drove the Manderleys from the Reach, at the behest of the Gardeners. since both had split the Reach a couple of generations before. I have no doubt there was some imagined slight that the Gardeners used, or even just quietly supplied the Peakes with some extra men while turning a blind eye. There's a few ways it could have gone down. See how Tywin justified his attack on the Tarbecks and the Reynes for a possiblilty

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On 2/17/2017 at 6:18 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Oh I agree with the Manderlys bringing only a tiny number North.

Regarding the Winterfell guard, well, I'm not sure. 100 sounds a bit low for a castle the size of Winterfell, and with the administrative duties required as the seat of the ruler of the entire North. Then again, Rodrik was able to gather 600 men from Winterfell's surroundings in short order, even after Winterfell's main forces were with Robb. So I guess in wartime the garrison would be a lot higher than in peacetime.

Still, Jory and Rodrik Cassel don't exactly inspire a lot of confidence as military commanders of Winterfell either. So it seems Martin just deliberately chose to depict Eddard as generally neglecting the potency of his military forces.

WF had a guard of 200, not 100. Ned took 50, which was noted as a quarter of the WF guard. Frankly 200 sounds about right. Your estimation of guards need to watch the walls is, tbh, insanely high. Even in war time, you would have patrols walking the walls at a certain interva, guarding whomever, and standing watch at critical points (eg the great hall). But those guards have to rotate, sleep, eat, take a dump, et al. 

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