US Politics: Deep State Solution

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

As somebody that comes from the white working class, I get this. But, what I want to tell these guys is that women and minorities aren't your abusers. So like would you stop believing that tax cuts for the rich are going to help you out?

This this this, a million times over!!!  Thanks OGE for saying this as 'divide and conquer' by the rightwing has been very well done.  The poor, the minorities and the uneducated have been identified by the RW as the enemy of the white working class and so their divisive politics have really prevented the people who should be allies and show some empathy for each other from being able to come together. 

 

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

They don't believe in tax cuts for the rich.

Alas, my experience here is that, yes they do believe in tax cuts for the rich as they have drank the 'taxes are always, always bad and too much' koolaid and if the rich the get a tax cut they so rightly deserve, they they'll pay less too.  It's magic!

[LongRider]

24 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Look at the poster above who claimed that asking white men to share the pie was actually punishing white men.  Think about that -allowing women, racial minorities or LGBTQ folks a piece of the pie is treated as a punishment for white men.  That's outrageous. 

This the reality here.  Just last year I was explaining to a male co-worker that equality for women did not mean that men would lose privileges.  He really thought that to bring women up, men had to lose their place.  Not so.

[Einheri]

28 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

  Look at the poster above who claimed that asking white men to share the pie was actually punishing white men.  Think about that -allowing women, racial minorities or LGBTQ folks a piece of the pie is treated as a punishment for white men.  That's outrageous.

I’m actually fine with the cake being shared with other people, but I simply don’t care if the people I’m sharing the cake with are white, black, purple, straight, gay, have dicks, or w/e.

I also tend to think that  we are much more than just those categories. Like I’m not just a little white man as you seem to think (well, I’m actually pretty tall tbh, so that’s wrong). I’m so much more than that, and as a guy who has served besides several minorities in the Norwegian Army, I can honestly say that I feel I have more in common with them than I do with say some stinking rick multibillionaire with a bad hairdo

[Martell Spy]

Much of white male privilege is actually invisible. For example having better or less interaction with law enforcement. Not having white male southerners trying to use the political process to tell you what to do with your body. I personally enjoy these advantages, not wanting to deal with either law enforcement or white male southerners in my life.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Nasty LongRider said:

Alas, my experience here is that, yes they do believe in tax cuts for the rich as they have drank the 'taxes are always, always bad and too much' koolaid and if the rich the get a tax cut they so rightly deserve, they they'll pay less too.  It's magic!

This has been my experience too LongRider.

Just now, Nasty LongRider said:

This the reality here.  Just last year I was explaining to a male co-worker that equality for women did not mean that men would lose privileges.  He really thought that to bring women up, men had to lose their place.  Not so.

Maybe if he'd been raised by a single mother, he'd think differently.

[Jo498]

35 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

Thanks OGE for saying this as 'divide and conquer' by the rightwing has been very well done.  The poor, the minorities and the uneducated have been identified by the RW as the enemy of the white working class and so their divisive politics have really prevented the people who should be allies and show some empathy for each other from being able to come together.

I agree that this is the divide and conquer strategy of the right wing. Unfortunately, there is also a divide and conquer strategy of the "pseudo-left", roughly, replacing "class war" talk with "identity politics" talk. (Roose Bolton's pet leech basically pointed this out above). And there is permanent confusion about equality of opportunity and equality of outcome, so both can be used for partisan interests and as a stick to beat whichever faction one does not like.

[LongRider]

5 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Unfortunately, there is also a divide and conquer strategy of the "pseudo-left",

Psuedo-left?  What do you mean by that?

[Martell Spy]

Panetta warns Trump's National Security Council is 'dysfunctional'

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/leon-panetta-trump-national-security-council-235187

Chelsea Clinton Trolls Trump Over Sweden Comment: Did They Catch Bowling Green Perpetrators?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/02/19/chelsea_clinton_trolls_trump_over_sweden_comment_did_they_catch_bowling.html

[Dr. Pepper]

1 hour ago, Einheri said:

I’m actually fine with the cake being shared with other people, but I simply don’t care if the people I’m sharing the cake with are white, black, purple, straight, gay, have dicks, or w/e.

 

I also tend to think that  we are much more than just those categories. Like I’m not just a little white man as you seem to think (well, I’m actually pretty tall tbh, so that’s wrong). I’m so much more than that, and as a guy who has served besides several minorities in the Norwegian Army, I can honestly say that I feel I have more in common with them than I do with say some stinking rick multibillionaire with a bad hairdo

 

Except you literally stated that sharing the cake is punishing white men.  

You may not personally care about another's identity (and this is gross, btw, because it suggests that you don't see a person for who they are), but the fact is that society cares a great deal.  Perhaps if you were personally in charge of everything, including the way people think and feel, women wouldn't have a 20% pay gap with men (way more for Latina and black women), blacks wouldn't be disproportionately imprisoned, queer folks wouldn't be denied employment, housing, or bathrooms.  But your personal desires don't determine the way our world works. 

[Einheri]

38 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Except you literally stated that sharing the cake is punishing white men.  

You may not personally care about another's identity (and this is gross, btw, because it suggests that you don't see a person for who they are), but the fact is that society cares a great deal.  Perhaps if you were personally in charge of everything, including the way people think and feel, women wouldn't have a 20% pay gap with men (way more for Latina and black women), blacks wouldn't be disproportionately imprisoned, queer folks wouldn't be denied employment, housing, or bathrooms.  But your personal desires don't determine the way our world works. 

No, I said that enacting legislation that sets an upper limit on the number of people of X skin color is in fact discriminatory towards that group since it only applies to them, and that I don’t think it is the right way to deal with discriminatory employers (I personally favor Ripponet’s suggestion that we move on to anonymous applications). This is not equivalent to not wanting to share the cake (not that I have that much of a cake to share anyway).

Regarding the rest of your post, I guess I view the world through different lenses than you (and the rest of society apparently). I do care about other’s identity, but the fact that you are x skin color, women or man, gay or straight or w/e is probably the least interesting thing about you IMO (well, unless I’m looking for a sexual relationship). 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Dr. Pepper,

Why am I your example?

[Dr. Pepper]

 

7 minutes ago, Einheri said:

No, I said that enacting legislation that sets an upper limit on the number of people of X skin color is in fact discriminatory towards that group since it only applies to them, and that I don’t think it is the right way to deal with discriminatory employers (I personally favor Ripponet’s suggestion that we move on to anonymous applications). This is not equivalent to not wanting to share the cake (not that I have that much of a cake to share anyway).

 

This is what you said:

On 2/18/2017 at 0:35 PM, Einheri said:

I understand what you're saying, and you do make a good point that these test do not always paint the best picture, but we have to measure abilities/talent somehow, and I just can't find it in me to agree that race, gender, or social/economic backgrounds should be taken into consideration. The mere thought of this sickens me.

Of course I'm not content with it, but I don't think that punishing a large group of people over the actions of some of the members of their group is the right way to deal with it either (in fact, it might just make the relations worse). It's not an easy battle, I'll grant, but it's a battle we'll have to win.

Discrimination of the sort we are discussing isn't happening with just a few random folks.  It's systematic.  Race and gender should absolutely be considered so to limit the effects of this systematic discrimination.

Legislation that encourages pie sharing isn't punishing anyone and it sure as fuck isn't discrimination.  It's intend to stop discrimination.

12 minutes ago, Einheri said:

Regarding the rest of your post, I guess I view the world through different lenses than you (and the rest of society apparently). I do care about other’s identity, but the fact that you are x skin color, women or man, gay or straight or w/e is probably the least interesting thing about you IMO (well, unless I’m looking for a sexual relationship). 

Of course you view the world through a different lens.  You live in a completely different country, on a different continent with an entirely different history from that in North America.  You might think that my identity or the identity of everyone else is uninteresting or not worth understanding, but you'll find that most people don't feel that way.  Our identities matter and I certainly don't want my own to be whitewashed.

Fragile Bird wrote a few pages back that you clearly aren't well-versed in North American racial history.  Perhaps sit back and listen to those of us who are and/or read more about it.  

16 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Dr. Pepper,

Why am I your example?

Because you aren't a queer woman of color?  I mean, seriously, what issue could you possibly have here?

[Martell Spy]

Quote

And despite exhibiting a rate of drug use that is roughly comparable to that of their white counterparts, blacks are more likely to be arrested for drug-related criminal activity, making them more likely to have prior convictions that require mandatory minimum sentences. These facts lead Schlesinger to conclude that “racial disparities are primarily produced and maintained by colorblind policies and practices.” Essentially, because these sentencing policies didn’t incorporate disparities that already existed, they inadvertently produced more of them

The Failure of Race-Blind Economic Policy
When legislators don't consider preexisting disparities, there's a risk of exacerbating them.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/02/race-economic-policy/516966/

[Einheri]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

 

This is what you said:

I’ve repeated myself quite a lot lately, but even so there is no contradiction with the above.

12 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Discrimination of the sort we are discussing isn't happening with just a few random folks.  It's systematic.  Race and gender should absolutely be considered so to limit the effects of this systematic discrimination.

Legislation that encourages pie sharing isn't punishing anyone and it sure as fuck isn't discrimination.  It's intend to stop discrimination.

Well, I don't think the end (as unquestionably good as it is) justify the means in this case as there are better means out there as Ripponet mentioned.

12 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

 

Of course you view the world through a different lens.  You live in a completely different country, on a different continent with an entirely different history from that in North America.  You might think that my identity or the identity of everyone else is uninteresting or not worth understanding, but you'll find that most people don't feel that way.  Our identities matter and I certainly don't want my own to be whitewashed.

That’s entirely up to you, but you are mistaken if you think I don’t find other cultures interesting.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

13 hours ago, Samantha Stark said:

Another member of the GOPe that is salty Trump did what he could not.

God forbid someone on the Right dares to criticize the Clown Prince. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

18 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Of course you view the world through a different lens.  You live in a completely different country, on a different continent with an entirely different history from that in North America.  You might think that my identity or the identity of everyone else is uninteresting or not worth understanding, but you'll find that most people don't feel that way.  Our identities matter and I certainly don't want my own to be whitewashed.

I think your anger towards that user is a bit misguided. Keep in mind, he is Norwegian. Norway has a very good public education and health and social system. And basically the free colleges Sanders talked about. On top of that the Norwegian society is more homogenously composed than the US (or even a lot of other EU states for that matter). So if you come from that place (with a pretty level playing field (not 100% (nothing ever is)) the reduction to queer-black-woman. Doesn't make much sense. And I don't think this was meant as white washing. 

[Dr. Pepper]

8 minutes ago, Einheri said:

Well, I don't think the end (as unquestionably good as it is) justify the means in this case as there are better means out there as Ripponet mentioned.

The means is making sure the pie is shared.  The end result is making sure the pie is shared.  So if you have a problem with the means, then you also have a problem with the end result.  I'm sure you'll find the means just as problematic no matter what it is.

Samantha Bee had a completely blind application process for her show Full Frontal.  The application wasn't just blind to race or gender.  It was intentionally designed to also hide experience.  They wanted good writers and were aware that not all good writers would have the same experience because those experiences aren't traditionally open to everyone.  The result was a writer staff that is 50% female and 30% minority.  It's admirable, for sure, something you think would be universally applauded.  But it wasn't, because people like you argue that it "punishes" people who have certain types of experiences.  

Someone who thinks the dominate group is punished when asked to share the pie is unlikely to be happy with any means used to achieve that.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

33 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

 

This is what you said:

Discrimination of the sort we are discussing isn't happening with just a few random folks.  It's systematic.  Race and gender should absolutely be considered so to limit the effects of this systematic discrimination.

Legislation that encourages pie sharing isn't punishing anyone and it sure as fuck isn't discrimination.  It's intend to stop discrimination.

Of course you view the world through a different lens.  You live in a completely different country, on a different continent with an entirely different history from that in North America.  You might think that my identity or the identity of everyone else is uninteresting or not worth understanding, but you'll find that most people don't feel that way.  Our identities matter and I certainly don't want my own to be whitewashed.

Fragile Bird wrote a few pages back that you clearly aren't well-versed in North American racial history.  Perhaps sit back and listen to those of us who are and/or read more about it.  

Because you aren't a queer woman of color?  I mean, seriously, what issue could you possibly have here?

I suspect there are an number of other boarders who share the lack of those characteristics.  Why me?

[Sivin]

11 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

God forbid someone on the Right dares to criticize the Clown Prince. 

I thought Mr. Trump brought a level of madness to the role that was missing from the performance of Mr. Leto.