Does fAegon annoy anyone else?

[Coolbeard the Exile]

30 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Valarr was male, and we know he has Valyrian blood from his father Baelor, but he does not have the overall Valyrian look. There's a huge difference between someone who looks like Aegon the Conqueror and a guy with brown hair and dark eyes. Valarr's mother was a Dondarrion, so yes, he does count. It's a classic case of the V+nV firstborn taking after the nV parent. A streak of silver itself does not change the overall look of the person. 

We do know about Duncan the Small. Here's the picture included in TWOIAF. All of the artwork in the book was approved by GRRM.

Don't know 100% what color whose eyes were?

Exact eye color doesn't make any difference in whether Jon could be half-Targaryen or not. Daemon Blackfyre, Aegon V, and Aegon III were all said to have deep or dark purple eyes, and deep/dark purple eyes can appear to be dark gray or even black, especially if the person with the dark purple eyes is not wearing purple or any other color that would bring out the purple in their eyes. I'm living proof of clothing affecting the appearance of eye color...my dark blue eyes look different colors depending on what I'm wearing, and when I wear purple I could pass for a dark-haired Targaryen.

 

@Violet what's the source of the info that says the Velaryon boys (Rhaenyra's sons) took after their grandmother Aemma in looks? 

There is only one kind of people that have targaryen traits like very pale skin, silver hair and purple eyes and that is valyrians. If any one of these traits are on a person you know 100% that they are born from someone with valyrian blood.

Bittersteel dosn't have the overall targaryen look but the purple eyes gives away that he has valyrian blood.

Give me some examples of V+nV=nV 

I can't really tell Duncan's eyes.

Dont you get it? Only one of those 3 distinguishing traits need to be on a person to give away that they have valyrian blood and there are less than 5 people of targaryen family that lack those 3 traits. It is a strike against r+l=j

[Lost Melnibonean]

52 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

There is only one kind of people that have targaryen traits like very pale skin, silver hair and purple eyes and that is valyrians. If any one of these traits are on a person you know 100% that they are born from someone with valyrian blood.

Bittersteel dosn't have the overall targaryen look but the purple eyes gives away that he has valyrian blood.

Give me some examples of V+nV=nV 

I can't really tell Duncan's eyes.

Dont you get it? Only one of those 3 distinguishing traits need to be on a person to give away that they have valyrian blood and there are less than 5 people of targaryen family that lack those 3 traits. It is a strike against r+l=j

Unless they are Daynes? 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

There is only one kind of people that have targaryen traits like very pale skin, silver hair and purple eyes and that is valyrians. If any one of these traits are on a person you know 100% that they are born from someone with valyrian blood.

Bittersteel dosn't have the overall targaryen look but the purple eyes gives away that he has valyrian blood.

Give me some examples of V+nV=nV 

I can't really tell Duncan's eyes.

Dont you get it? Only one of those 3 distinguishing traits need to be on a person to give away that they have valyrian blood and there are less than 5 people of targaryen family that lack those 3 traits. It is a strike against r+l=j

I've given you examples. Here's another one to add to the pile: Prince Daeron the Drunken, firstborn child of Prince Maekar and his wife Dyanna Dayne. Daeron had sandy brown hair and a blond beard. Clearly he did not get that hair and that beard from Prince Maekar.

You are claiming facts not in evidence: namely that all people descended from Valryians will always have either pale skin, silver hair, or purple eyes. There's nothing to prove that. There is in fact far more evidence of V+nV = nV firstborn.

The only people with known Valyrian ancestry who lack those three traits you mention come from a pairing including a non-Valyrian parent. And at least two known Targaryens had blue eyes, not purple (one of whom was Alysanne, who was 100% genetically Valyrian and so according to your logic should have had purple eyes). ALL of the Targs who lack those three traits are examples of V+nV = nV with the firstborn child. 

This was mentioned to GRRM and his response was that the person mentioning it had been really paying attention.  @The Fattest Leech would you care to weigh in here?

We don't know Jon's eye color either. If his eyes turn out to be deep/dark purple, that would (according to your own logic) prove his Valyrian ancestry. 

 

24 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Unless they are Daynes? 

Good point. GRRM is on record saying the Daynes are not Valyrian. And that Elizabeth Taylor isn't either, so far as he knows.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I've given you examples. You are claiming facts not in evidence: namely that all people descended from Valryians will always have either pale skin, silver hair, or purple eyes. Bloodraven doesn't fit that criteria because of his albinism (and no, the skin of an albino is not the same kind of pale as that of a Valyrian) and we know Aegon VI was his father. You can certainly claim he doesn't count because of the albinism though.

The only people with known Valyrian ancestry who lack those three traits come from a pairing including a non-Valyrian parent. And at least two known Targaryens had blue eyes, not purple (one of whom was Alysanne, who was 100% genetically Valyrian). ALL of the Targs who lack those three traits are examples of V+nV = nV with the firstborn child. 

This was mentioned to GRRM and his response was that the person mentioning it had been really paying attention. And it's a member of this forum too. @The Fattest Leech would you care to weigh in here?

We don't know Jon's eye color either, but you seem very willing to dismiss the possibility that his eyes are the deep/dark purple that Aegon III, Aegon V, and Daemon Blackfyre all had. If his eyes turn out to be a dark purple, that would (according to your own logic) prove his Valyrian ancestry. 

Nothing here has been a strike against R+L=J.

 

Good point. GRRM is on record saying the Daynes are not Valyrian. And that Elizabeth Taylor isn't either, so far as he knows.

I would like to weigh in, but at the moment I am shackled to work. 

However, if you do not want to wait for me later, you can find links to my Targ+nTarg theory in my signature. My talk with George is there as well. 

Thanks for the mention. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Good point. GRRM is on record saying the Daynes are not Valyrian. And that Elizabeth Taylor isn't either, so far as he knows.

Some Daynes have purple eyes and Gerold Dayne also has silver-gold hair but we have no reason to believe that quasi-Valyrian features of some Daynes are representative for the house at large since we actually lack descriptions of other historical Dayne characters mentioned in TWoIaF.

They could have had a Targaryen or other Valyrian ancestor in the recent past.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Some Daynes have purple eyes and Gerold Dayne also has silver-gold hair but we have no reason to believe that quasi-Valyrian features of some Daynes are representative for the house at large since we actually lack descriptions of other historical Dayne characters mentioned in TWoIaF.

They could have had a Targaryen or other Valyrian ancestor in the recent past.

GRRM said they have no Valyrian ancestry. I found the page but I'm getting error messages. Maybe you'll have better luck getting it to come up. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/10.2.4.1./

In case you wonder how I found that, I did a Google search for "SSM Dayne Valyrian" and clicked on the page with the words: "Jul 18, 2012 - SSM: 1); Ashara Dayne threw herself from a tower at Starfall called the ... grow hazy (SSM: 1); The family is not descended at all from Valyrian ..."

The other, less firm quote is:

Quote

 

Fan: Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination.

GRRM: I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes...look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

Fan: So many banners, I was shooting in the dark. And I was actually arguing that she was a Liz Taylor type. Thanks.

GRRM: If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are...well, neith (sic) Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

 

That's from a chat in 1999. Link: https://archive.is/St3S6

 

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

GRRM said they have no Valyrian ancestry. I found the page but I'm getting error messages. Maybe you'll have better luck getting it to come up. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/10.2.4.1./

In case you wonder how I found that, I did a Google search for "SSM Dayne Valyrian" and clicked on the page with the words: "Jul 18, 2012 - SSM: 1); Ashara Dayne threw herself from a tower at Starfall called the ... grow hazy (SSM: 1); The family is not descended at all from Valyrian ..."

The other, less firm quote is:

That's from a chat in 1999. Link: https://archive.is/St3S6

I know both quotes but the recent revelation that Dyanna Dayne married Maekar made it not unlikely that she actually had a Targaryen ancestor herself (possibly one of the five Rhaena-Garmund daughters) or that other Targaryens (Maekar's daughters, Princess Vaella) married into House Dayne in the years thereafter.

That wouldn't make the Daynes a Valyrian house just as the Penroses or the Martells didn't become Valyrian just because a Targaryen married into any of those families.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

I know both quotes but the recent revelation that Dyanna Dayne married Maekar made it not unlikely that she actually had a Targaryen ancestor herself (possibly one of the five Rhaena-Garmund daughters) or that other Targaryens (Maekar's daughters, Princess Vaella) married into House Dayne in the years thereafter.

That wouldn't make the Daynes a Valyrian house just as the Penroses or the Martells didn't become Valyrian just because a Targaryen married into any of those families.

Not necessarily. Remember Maekar was a fourth son and was not expected to rule. He may have married for love as Aegon V (fourth son of a fourth son, and not expected to rule) did.

I'm pretty sure that "no Valyrian ancestors" means they have no Valyrian blood, distant past or recent. It seems like he threw the Daynes in either to mess us up, or as Proto-Valyrians who left the GEotD before the Valyrian peninsula was settled and way before the dragon taming occurred.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Unless they are Daynes? 

Explain i don't get what you mean?

[Lost Melnibonean]

19 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Explain i don't get what you mean?

Gerold, Ashara, and Edric Dayne have purple eyes, and the George has suggested they do not have any Valyrian ancestry. 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

13 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Gerold, Ashara, and Edric Dayne have purple eyes, and the George has suggested they do not have any Valyrian ancestry. 

Ohh i looked up George saying it. Thought it was a valyria exclusive thing.

[Lord Wraith]

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

GRRM said they have no Valyrian ancestry. I found the page but I'm getting error messages. Maybe you'll have better luck getting it to come up. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/10.2.4.1./

In case you wonder how I found that, I did a Google search for "SSM Dayne Valyrian" and clicked on the page with the words: "Jul 18, 2012 - SSM: 1); Ashara Dayne threw herself from a tower at Starfall called the ... grow hazy (SSM: 1); The family is not descended at all from Valyrian ..."

The other, less firm quote is:

That's from a chat in 1999. Link: https://archive.is/St3S6

 

True but what if the Dayne and the Valyrians share common ancestry? Namely the Great Empire of the Dawn.

@LmL can explain it far better than I can.

[LmL]

6 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

True but what if the Dayne and the Valyrians share common ancestry? Namely the Great Empire of the Dawn.

@LmL can explain it far better than I can.

Right, the idea is that there is an older common ancestor, which would be the dragonlords who are rumored to first have tamed dragons in the Shadow by Asshai. I identify them with the Great Empire of the Dawn, and they would be a mutual ancestor of House Dayne (and probably Hightower, some Ironborn Houses, maybe Starks too) and Valyria.I actually did a whole video presentation of this with Aziz from History of Westeros:
 

 

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Not necessarily. Remember Maekar was a fourth son and was not expected to rule. He may have married for love as Aegon V (fourth son of a fourth son, and not expected to rule) did.

But we learn that Egg's marriage to a Blackwood was problematic and would have been a major scandal if Egg had not been at the very end of the line of succession. Maekar married rather early and his elder brothers Baelor and Aerys both married wives of less prestige and nobility than he did - neither the Dondarrions nor the Penroses are former royalty, the Daynes and the Blackwoods are roughly the same rank-wise - making it very likely that aside from Rhaegel (who married an Arryn of highest nobility) all the other wives could have had Targaryen ancestors to justify such marriages to the lords.

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I'm pretty sure that "no Valyrian ancestors" means they have no Valyrian blood, distant past or recent. It seems like he threw the Daynes in either to mess us up, or as Proto-Valyrians who left the GEotD before the Valyrian peninsula was settled and way before the dragon taming occurred.

I know for a fact that George changed the Targaryen family quite considerably shortly before the completion of TWoIaF. You can see traces of this in the text, too. Yandel claims there were only two marriages between the Targaryens and Arryns when in fact there were three - the third, Alys Arryn & Rhaegel Targaryen. This was a late change George introduced. Just as he changed Aelinor from Aerys' sister to a cousin and Maekar's wife from a Targaryen wife to a Dayne woman.

We also know that Rhaenyra's three elder sons were originally conceived as actual Strongs, sons of Rhaenyra's first husband - then not Laenor Velaryon but Lord Lyonel Strong, the Hand. Alyn Velaryon was originally supposed to be much closer in age to Princess Elaena, and so on.

I once asked George about Daeron I and he said the man was married - which was then later changed.

The family trees and other historical details are only fixed when they actually go into print. And in that sense George is most certainly not bound by stuff he said in SSMs once.

We also know from Ran that George has made a Dayne family tree. Those guys are important somehow. I'm not sure why he would need a Dayne family tree if they weren't related with another house.

3 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

True but what if the Dayne and the Valyrians share common ancestry? Namely the Great Empire of the Dawn.

While that is a possibility it would be pretty odd if the Dayne looks were so long-lived and stable that they would be preserved this long without the incest. Only the Valyrian incest and the deliberate breeding of Valyrian-looking people in Lysene brothels keeps this look alive over the generations. Unless the Daynes mostly/only married their own cousins for thousands of years it makes little sense to assume their looks could originate with some guy back during the Long Night.

And the idea that the emperors from the Yi Tish legends actually had Valyrian looks is not confirmed. The only people with those strange looks are the Valyrians.

[Violet]

23 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

@Violet what's the source of the info that says the Velaryon boys (Rhaenyra's sons) took after their grandmother Aemma in looks? 

It simple, I'm a Blacks supporter who strongly believes that, Greens told various lies about Rhaenyra, to tarnish her reputation. History is written by winners and Dance of the Dragons was written by Grand Maester Munkun, who supported the Greens. I mentioned that Ser Harwin Strong might be their father but I believe it was made up by Greens. If that's true and indeed Harwin is their father, then we have, not only one but three   V+ nV = nV  looking boys. Because they were very famous about how they were looking nothing like a Targaryen.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Violet said:

It simple, I'm a Blacks supporter who strongly believes that, Greens told various lies about Rhaenyra, to tarnish her reputation. History is written by winners and Dance of the Dragons was written by Grand Maester Munkun, who supported the Greens. I mentioned that Ser Harwin Strong might be their father but I believe it was made up by Greens. If that's true and indeed Harwin is their father, then we have, not only one but three   V+ nV = nV  looking boys. Because they were very famous about how they were looking nothing like a Targaryen.

I used a similar argument once since it is by no means clear that Rhaenyra's sons actually resembled Ser Harwin Strong. We have no idea how that man looked like. It could very well be that Rhaenyra's son resemble their maternal great-grandfather Rodrik Arryn or some non-Valyrian ancestor Laenor Velaryon might have. Neither Rhaenyra nor Laenor have only Valyrian ancestors.

However, it is wrong that Grand Maester Munkun was a Green nor do we know whether he even was Grand Maester at one point during the Dance.

[Violet]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I used a similar argument once since it is by no means clear that Rhaenyra's sons actually resembled Ser Harwin Strong. We have no idea how that man looked like. It could very well be that Rhaenyra's son resemble their maternal great-grandfather Rodrik Arryn or some non-Valyrian ancestor Laenor Velaryon might have. Neither Rhaenyra nor Laenor have only Valyrian ancestors.

However, it is wrong that Grand Maester Munkun was a Green nor do we know whether he even was Grand Maester at one point during the Dance.

  Yes you're right about that, thank you for correcting me. I just watched a theory on YouTube about, how Dance of the Dragons was Citadel's grand plan to kill all dragons, and how they arranged Alicent Hightower's marriage to create a succession war. Sounded plausible to me considering how much they hate magic.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But we learn that Egg's marriage to a Blackwood was problematic and would have been a major scandal if Egg had not been at the very end of the line of succession. Maekar married rather early and his elder brothers Baelor and Aerys both married wives of less prestige and nobility than he did - neither the Dondarrions nor the Penroses are former royalty, the Daynes and the Blackwoods are roughly the same rank-wise - making it very likely that aside from Rhaegel (who married an Arryn of highest nobility) all the other wives could have had Targaryen ancestors to justify such marriages to the lords.

I know for a fact that George changed the Targaryen family quite considerably shortly before the completion of TWoIaF. You can see traces of this in the text, too. Yandel claims there were only two marriages between the Targaryens and Arryns when in fact there were three - the third, Alys Arryn & Rhaegel Targaryen. This was a late change George introduced. Just as he changed Aelinor from Aerys' sister to a cousin and Maekar's wife from a Targaryen wife to a Dayne woman.

We also know that Rhaenyra's three elder sons were originally conceived as actual Strongs, sons of Rhaenyra's first husband - then not Laenor Velaryon but Lord Lyonel Strong, the Hand. Alyn Velaryon was originally supposed to be much closer in age to Princess Elaena, and so on.

I once asked George about Daeron I and he said the man was married - which was then later changed.

The family trees and other historical details are only fixed when they actually go into print. And in that sense George is most certainly not bound by stuff he said in SSMs once.

<snip

Exactly, and when Maekar married Dyanna, he too would have been at the very end of the line of succession. Just a shorter line. It's possible that there was a scandal and we just don't know about it yet, much like we don't know the names of Edric Dayne's parents. The George has not revealed everything to us.

Actually the Penroses very well may, because Elaena Targaryen married a Penrose and had four children with him including a son. On the Dondarrions we are as clueless as Jon Snow. 

I would say the Daynes are above the Blackwoods, being one of the oldest houses in Westeros, having their magic sword, and having been kings of the Torrentine far longer than the Blackwoods were kings of anything. House Dayne was royal up until Nymeria kicked Vorian's rear, whereas House Blackwood lost out in the Andal invasion. Granted this may or may not have made a difference to House Targaryen, but it certainly could have been used as an argument in favor of a Targaryen-Dayne match. It's also possible that Dyanna was a rare beauty like Ashara, and Maekar did as his grandchildren (Jaehaerys II and Shaera) would later do and eloped with the girl. We know nothing about Maekar's courtship and marriage.

It is certainly not without precedent for a Targaryen to marry into a second-tier house in one of the kingdoms. House Hightower don't rule the Reach, yet they too are an ancient house and were deemed worthy of consideration. Fun fact: King Samwell "the Starfire" Dayne burned Oldtown once.

Yes but because Daella's only child was female and married back into House Targaryen, the Arryns at the time of Rhaegel and Alys' marriage had no Targaryen blood. So while Targ-Arryn marriages had taken place in the past, it clearly was not a blood thing for Rhaegel's match. 

And I'm sure that change was made for a reason. But that doesn't necessarily indicate Targ blood in the Dayne lines. It's far more likely that change was made because he feels the current Targs need Dayne blood, not the other way around. It's not like we need more candidates for dragonriding, and TDtwP in theory can only come from Aerys and Rhaella's line, so adding Targ blood to house Dayne would serve no purpose on that.

Changing things that went into TWOIAF is not necessarily indicative of anything. There is deliberate misinformation in there, as George has pointed out that the maester writing it was subject to political pressure and incomplete/inaccurate information. He also added info that seemingly means Jaime and Cersei can't be Aerys' kids and Tyrion could be his. Doesn't mean anything is actually changed, but it changes our perceptions of things, and that's deliberate on the part of the author.

No, but he does try to stick to what he says, and has yet to contradict himself on anything important, like a Westerosi house having Valryian/Targaryen blood after he said they don't. 

13 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

True but what if the Dayne and the Valyrians share common ancestry? Namely the Great Empire of the Dawn.

@LmL can explain it far better than I can.

Yes. I'm a big fan of the Proto-Valyrian theory.

4 hours ago, Violet said:

It simple, I'm a Blacks supporter who strongly believes that, Greens told various lies about Rhaenyra, to tarnish her reputation. History is written by winners and Dance of the Dragons was written by Grand Maester Munkun, who supported the Greens. I mentioned that Ser Harwin Strong might be their father but I believe it was made up by Greens. If that's true and indeed Harwin is their father, then we have, not only one but three   V+ nV = nV  looking boys. Because they were very famous about how they were looking nothing like a Targaryen.

Oh so it's opinion rather than verifiable fact. Wish you'd mentioned that before.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Violet said:

  Yes you're right about that, thank you for correcting me. I just watched a theory on YouTube about, how Dance of the Dragons was Citadel's grand plan to kill all dragons, and how they arranged Alicent Hightower's marriage to create a succession war. Sounded plausible to me considering how much they hate magic.

In light of the fact that all of Alicent's children became dragonriders and she even arranged a marriage between Aegon and Helaena and ensured that even her grandchildren got dragon eggs I find that very unlikely.

The Hightowers wanted to be Targaryens. They tried to take over the royal house just as the Lannisters did in the main series. That began when Lord Manfred asked the Conqueror to marry his maiden daughter, continued when the High Septon forced the Targaryens to cancel the Maegor-Rhaena marriage in favor of Maegor-Ceryse, and then went on when Otto Hightower brought his family with him to court when he became the Old King's Hand.

It may be that the Citadel used the connections it could make during the days of the Hightower Handship and presence at court to implement their plans to kill the dragons, but this is not actually necessary. There are hints that there was a guiding (and unseen) hand behind the Storming of the Dragonpit (which could have involved agents of the Citadels pretending to fight for the Green cause).

But this is not really necessary. The Citadel would have had more than enough time to target the surviving dragons or implement plans to the slow and ultimate destruction of the dragons during the Regency of Aegon III. Grand Maester Munkun was at one point the sole regent, the Hand of the King, and the Grand Maester of the Realm. That would have given him an enormous amount of power - in fact, he would have been effectively the king himself (and was most likely the man who convened the Great Council of 136 AC). In such a position he certainly could have taken measures to poison dragons, etc.

You have to keep in mind that the Citadel is actually a progressive institution, not some weirdo evil conspiracy club. We know they are trying to build a world of reason, science, and law. And while they don't like magic very much it may actually have been the Dance which opened their eyes to the devastating effects a civil fought with dozens of dragons can have on the general population as well as the Realm at large. Thus they had to do.

If Daemon Blackfyre had had access to dragons there would have been another Dance in 196 AC.

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Exactly, and when Maekar married Dyanna, he too would have been at the very end of the line of succession. Just a shorter line. It's possible that there was a scandal and we just don't know about it yet, much like we don't know the names of Edric Dayne's parents. The George has not revealed everything to us.

I'd agree that Maekar-Dyanna most likely would have been the least controversial of those marriages but it still is an odd thing. There is no hint that Daeron II abandoned the Targaryen incest policy and thus the idea that the brides of his four sisterless (according to the new family tree, Aelinor was originally Aerys' sister-wife) sons were actually all their cousins through the female line is not unreasonable.

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Actually the Penroses very well may, because Elaena Targaryen married a Penrose and had four children with him including a son. On the Dondarrions we are as clueless as Jon Snow. 

Aelinor Penrose is confirmed to be Aerys' cousin on the Targaryen side of the family. That means she either has a Velaryon ancestor (through Alyn and Baela) or is descended from one of the five Targaryen-Hightower girls.

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I would say the Daynes are above the Blackwoods, being one of the oldest houses in Westeros, having their magic sword, and having been kings of the Torrentine far longer than the Blackwoods were kings of anything. House Dayne was royal up until Nymeria kicked Vorian's rear, whereas House Blackwood lost out in the Andal invasion. Granted this may or may not have made a difference to House Targaryen, but it certainly could have been used as an argument in favor of a Targaryen-Dayne match. It's also possible that Dyanna was a rare beauty like Ashara, and Maekar did as his grandchildren (Jaehaerys II and Shaera) would later do and eloped with the girl. We know nothing about Maekar's courtship and marriage.

The Daynes were longer kings but they ruled a meager kingdom. The Blackwoods once ruled all/most of the Riverlands, which would make them much more powerful kings.

But then, it could still be that the Daynes outrank the Blackwoods.

While there is no indication whether Maekar's marriage was a love match I won't speculate on that all that much. He could have loved her, of course, but that remains to be seen. My personal guess is that Dyanna came to court as a lady-in-waiting for Queen Mariah and that Maekar met her this way, leading to the eventual marriage. But I'd be surprised if this wasn't an arranged marriage.

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It is certainly not without precedent for a Targaryen to marry into a second-tier house in one of the kingdoms. House Hightower don't rule the Reach, yet they too are an ancient house and were deemed worthy of consideration. Fun fact: King Samwell "the Starfire" Dayne burned Oldtown once.

The Hightowers are an exception. They are, effectively, still a royal house. Or at least were a royal house back before the Conquest and while the High Septon still resided in Oldtown. Back then they did not only control the Citadel but also the Faith (through the High Septon) and thus had tremendous influence throughout the entire Seven Kingdoms. They are also supposedly 'as rich as the Lannisters'. They were considered to be eligible to marry the Targaryens from the very beginning.

The impression you get is that - aside from incestuous and cousin marriages (i.e. Targaryens, Velaryons, and Baratheons) - the only houses the Targaryens would consider to be noble enough to provide their heirs with spouses would be the former royal houses of the Seven Kingdoms - the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns, and Hightowers. Anything else - like Maegor's many wives or the marriages arranged for younger daughters - are different matters.

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes but because Daella's only child was female and married back into House Targaryen, the Arryns at the time of Rhaegel and Alys' marriage had no Targaryen blood. So while Targ-Arryn marriages had taken place in the past, it clearly was not a blood thing for Rhaegel's match. 

Alys could also turn out to be a Targaryen cousin through one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls. But even if not the Arryns are clearly considered to be noble enough to marry a royal prince.

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And I'm sure that change was made for a reason. But that doesn't necessarily indicate Targ blood in the Dayne lines. It's far more likely that change was made because he feels the current Targs need Dayne blood, not the other way around. It's not like we need more candidates for dragonriding, and TDtwP in theory can only come from Aerys and Rhaella's line, so adding Targ blood to house Dayne would serve no purpose on that.

If the Dayne link was supposed to be important one would not expect it to come this late and as some sort of correction. George erased the at least one daughter of Daeron II - Aelinor - and made her cousin as Aelinor Penrose. Thus it is not far-fetched to assume the other wives of Daeron II's sons were also such cousins. Baela and Rhaena and their descendants might have been figures George only invented while writing TWoIaF. 

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Changing things that went into TWOIAF is not necessarily indicative of anything. There is deliberate misinformation in there, as George has pointed out that the maester writing it was subject to political pressure and incomplete/inaccurate information. He also added info that seemingly means Jaime and Cersei can't be Aerys' kids and Tyrion could be his. Doesn't mean anything is actually changed, but it changes our perceptions of things, and that's deliberate on the part of the author.

We are talking about the family tree. That is 100% canon.

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No, but he does try to stick to what he says, and has yet to contradict himself on anything important, like a Westerosi house having Valryian/Targaryen blood after he said they don't.

Assuming he remembers what he has said, once. One of those SSM is pretty old. One hopes George does not follow or feels bound to some fan-made concordance of what he said during interviews or in casual conversation. He can change his mind on all that.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

<snip

I'd agree that Maekar-Dyanna most likely would have been the least controversial of those marriages but it still is an odd thing. There is no hint that Daeron II abandoned the Targaryen incest policy and thus the idea that the brides of his four sisterless (according to the new family tree, Aelinor was originally Aerys' sister-wife) sons were actually all their cousins through the female line is not unreasonable.

Aelinor Penrose is confirmed to be Aerys' cousin on the Targaryen side of the family. That means she either has a Velaryon ancestor (through Alyn and Baela) or is descended from one of the five Targaryen-Hightower girls.

The Daynes were longer kings but they ruled a meager kingdom. The Blackwoods once ruled all/most of the Riverlands, which would make them much more powerful kings.

But then, it could still be that the Daynes outrank the Blackwoods.

While there is no indication whether Maekar's marriage was a love match I won't speculate on that all that much. He could have loved her, of course, but that remains to be seen. My personal guess is that Dyanna came to court as a lady-in-waiting for Queen Mariah and that Maekar met her this way, leading to the eventual marriage. But I'd be surprised if this wasn't an arranged marriage.

The Hightowers are an exception. They are, effectively, still a royal house. Or at least were a royal house back before the Conquest and while the High Septon still resided in Oldtown. Back then they did not only control the Citadel but also the Faith (through the High Septon) and thus had tremendous influence throughout the entire Seven Kingdoms. They are also supposedly 'as rich as the Lannisters'. They were considered to be eligible to marry the Targaryens from the very beginning.

The impression you get is that - aside from incestuous and cousin marriages (i.e. Targaryens, Velaryons, and Baratheons) - the only houses the Targaryens would consider to be noble enough to provide their heirs with spouses would be the former royal houses of the Seven Kingdoms - the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns, and Hightowers. Anything else - like Maegor's many wives or the marriages arranged for younger daughters - are different matters.

Alys could also turn out to be a Targaryen cousin through one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls. But even if not the Arryns are clearly considered to be noble enough to marry a royal prince.

If the Dayne link was supposed to be important one would not expect it to come this late and as some sort of correction. George erased the at least one daughter of Daeron II - Aelinor - and made her cousin as Aelinor Penrose. Thus it is not far-fetched to assume the other wives of Daeron II's sons were also such cousins. Baela and Rhaena and their descendants might have been figures George only invented while writing TWoIaF. 

We are talking about the family tree. That is 100% canon.

Assuming he remembers what he has said, once. One of those SSM is pretty old. One hopes George does not follow or feels bound to some fan-made concordance of what he said during interviews or in casual conversation. He can change his mind on all that.

There is also no hint that he kept it either. Aelinor Penrose is the only one we know to have been related to the Targaryens. Yes it's possible the others were as well, but it is equally possible that they weren't.

We really need to find out about those girls. They're like Aegon IV's other bastards...hanging over everything as possibilities we can't pin down.

But not for very long. The Brackens, Fishers, and Mudds also were kings of the Riverlands (the Mudds having the largest kingdom and longest reign). In contrast House Dayne were the only Kings of the Torrentine and hung on to that distinction even after the Andal invasion.

Very likely. 

If it's not important, why bother making the change at all? 

George didn't write TWOIAF. He had approval on all of it, and added some things, but Elio and Linda wrote the bulk of it. If Baela didn't exist prior to TWOIAF she really should have. She was a little badass during the Dance!

Canon yes, but not necessarily indicative of anything different, like Targaryen blood in a previously Targ-free House.

I figure some of the older ones are more likely to be reliable because he wasn't yet bogged down in the middle of everything. Sure he can forget. He frequently says Elio helps him out with the details he can't remember. And yes, he could change his mind, but I think the major points were all pretty well set by the time he started giving interviews about the series. I don't see any point in changing the Daynes into Targ descendants unless he needs one to ride a dragon or sit the throne in the end. With the succession there are other houses that would probably come ahead of the Daynes...unless multiple houses are going extinct before the end it's not necessary.