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Does fAegon annoy anyone else?


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6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There is also no hint that he kept it either. Aelinor Penrose is the only one we know to have been related to the Targaryens. Yes it's possible the others were as well, but it is equally possible that they weren't.

Well, I've seen a previous version of the TWoIaF Targaryen family tree and there Maekar's wife was one Rhaena Targaryen and Rhaegel's wife an unspecified Targaryen woman. Things definitely weren't pinned down at that time, and it is clear that he actually changed a lot there, even established canon (ACoK calls Aerys I's queen his sister-wife).

6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

We really need to find out about those girls. They're like Aegon IV's other bastards...hanging over everything as possibilities we can't pin down.

Well, the Penroses are really vexing there. Not one, but two Targaryen marriages. My personal attempt to figure things out is to make Ronnel Penrose Rhaena and Garmund's grandson with Aelinor being Ronnel's daughter by his first wife, with Elaena just being his second wife. That way all the stuff we learned about the Penroses can add up, more or less.

Ronnel Penrose and Jena Dondarrion's father - another Targaryen cousin - would be men who were raised as Targaryen cousins at court alongside young Prince Daeron, leading to a friendship with later resulted in those matches because Daeron II wanted to strengthen his influence in the Stormlands.

If those men had not been related to the royal family the Blackfyres and other detractors of Daeron II would have used those marriages against him. He is criticized for the Daenerys-Maron match because Daemon allegedly loved her but nobody has any problems with a future Dondarrion queen?! That's not very likely. But with the Targaryen policy favoring incest marriages then such cousin marriages should be what people expect of their royals.

6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If it's not important, why bother making the change at all? 

Honestly, I think that George realized that Daeron II should not have daughters because that would make the Blackfyre Rebellion and the Dornish union much more difficult to explain. Think about it - couldn't have Daeron II married one of his own daughters to either Maron Martell, Daemon Blackfyre, or even Bittersteel to prevent a war? Does it make sense that it has to be Princess Daenerys rather than one of the king's own daughters - who could easily be roughly of the same age as Princess Daenerys who was much younger than her royal brother?

Not to mention that it might be much more interesting to have female cadet branches of House Targaryen in that era - an era George has apparently always had rather detailed notes on - and thus have some cousin marriages rather than the run-of-the-mill sibling marriages?

One of the Targaryen-Hightower girls could have been married into House Dayne in the wake of Daeron's Conquest - either as peacemaking effort by Baelor I or by Daeron I when he brought all those Dornish hostages to court. Aegon met Cassella Vaith then - it is not exactly a stretch that a Hightower cousin of Daeron I living at court in those days met a dashing young man of House Dayne in those days.

6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

George didn't write TWOIAF. He had approval on all of it, but Elio and Linda wrote the bulk of it. If Baela didn't exist prior to TWOIAF she really should have. She was a little badass during the Dance!

I know, but nearly all the material they wrote about comes from George. We know from Ran and Linda that he had worked out the details on the Targaryen family as far back as Aegon III and Viserys II long before he began writing material for TWoIaF. But even that was subject to change.

6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I figure some of the older ones are more likely to be reliable because he wasn't yet bogged down in the middle of everything. Sure he can forget. He frequently says Elio helps him out with the details he can't remember. And yes, he could change his mind, but I think the major points were all pretty well set by the time he started giving interviews about the series. I don't see any point in changing the Daynes into Targ descendants unless he needs one to ride a dragon or sit the throne in the end. With the succession there are other houses that would probably come ahead of the Daynes...unless multiple houses are going extinct before the end it's not necessary.

The Daynes always were important. But their role might have grown in the story. Originally they might have just been plot devices to eventually help resolve the Jon Snow mystery. And there certainly is something odd about Dawn.

I don't expect them to become dragonriders or anything, but it might be that George began actually wonder more and more about them, causing him to connect them to the Targaryens after all. I mean, he constantly reinforces this whole Valyrian features trend and if those purple eyes were more common in his world then other non-Valyrian could very well have them, no?

TWoIaF also established a link between the Targaryens and the Tarths out of nowhere. One could perhaps have foreseen due to Jaime's dream which very much stresses the importance of Brienne as a character who has to live but pretty much nobody did. If the Daynes are going to play a major role in future books connecting them to the Targaryens wouldn't be that much of problem.

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On 2/23/2017 at 3:38 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There is in fact far more evidence of V+nV = nV firstborn.

The only people with known Valyrian ancestry who lack those three traits you mention come from a pairing including a non-Valyrian parent. And at least two known Targaryens had blue eyes, not purple (one of whom was Alysanne, who was 100% genetically Valyrian and so according to your logic should have had purple eyes). ALL of the Targs who lack those three traits are examples of V+nV = nV with the firstborn child. 

This was mentioned to GRRM and his response was that the person mentioning it had been really paying attention.  @The Fattest Leech would you care to weigh in here?

@Coolbeard the Exile , or anyone else still interested, I know the hour is late for me to finally be posting this, but work has been hell this week (and probably next week too :crying:).

So yes, I did have a chance to ask George about my T+nT first born theory, and he had some interesting things to say, and ask, about it, but basically, he never said "no" as he so often does when answering questions about a theory. Here is the main theory thread below, and then my write up about my entire weekend after that.

I explained my findings, the whole first born to a Targ does not look like the Targ parent thing, and he asked why I thought that. I explained why, and I had my note card with me as not to forget any specifics. HE brought up two names that I have listed in my theory as being the example of an inverted reason why they do not look like Targs, which is basically these two had an "identity crisis", to which he agreed right away they did. And then he asked me a few more questions, took the notecard to look at it (yes, I still have that notecard. I am never washing it again! ^_^), and said "you know a lot," and then something like I should join the fangroup Brotherhood without Banners.

Funny enough, when I first explained what I found and why I thought so, he got a little upset looking, leaned back in his chair away from me, and his voice became a little rigid because he thought that I was trying to claim he made the Targaryens a "master race" and was quick to tell me there is no such thing in his books. I was a little nervous that he would just write me off, but after I explained again, he understood better and we had the conversation mentioned above.

 

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46 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Coolbeard the Exile , or anyone else still interested, I know the hour is late for me to finally be posting this, but work has been hell this week (and probably next week too :crying:).

So yes, I did have a chance to ask George about my T+nT first born theory, and he had some interesting things to say, and ask, about it, but basically, he never said "no" as he so often does when answering questions about a theory. Here is the main theory thread below, and then my write up about my entire weekend after that.

I explained my findings, the whole first born to a Targ does not look like the Targ parent thing, and he asked why I thought that. I explained why, and I had my note card with me as not to forget any specifics. HE brought up two names that I have listed in my theory as being the example of an inverted reason why they do not look like Targs, which is basically these two had an "identity crisis", to which he agreed right away they did. And then he asked me a few more questions, took the notecard to look at it (yes, I still have that notecard. I am never washing it again! ^_^), and said "you know a lot," and then something like I should join the fangroup Brotherhood without Banners.

Funny enough, when I first explained what I found and why I thought so, he got a little upset looking, leaned back in his chair away from me, and his voice became a little rigid because he thought that I was trying to claim he made the Targaryens a "master race" and was quick to tell me there is no such thing in his books. I was a little nervous that he would just write me off, but after I explained again, he understood better and we had the conversation mentioned above.

 

Were you in the presence of George RR Martin??? :D:D:D:D:D???

Was his aura mighty???:D:D:D???

How did you get to talk to him?

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Oh so it's opinion rather than verifiable fact. Wish you'd mentioned that before.

    Ser Harwing being their father is also a theory although it doesn't change the fact that Rhaenyra had 3 children who had brown hair and eyes, and a pug nose. Did anyone else had more than 1 nV looking kid?

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In light of the fact that all of Alicent's children became dragonriders and she even arranged a marriage between Aegon and Helaena and ensured that even her grandchildren got dragon eggs I find that very unlikely.

The Hightowers wanted to be Targaryens. They tried to take over the royal house just as the Lannisters did in the main series. That began when Lord Manfred asked the Conqueror to marry his maiden daughter, continued when the High Septon forced the Targaryens to cancel the Maegor-Rhaena marriage in favor of Maegor-Ceryse, and then went on when Otto Hightower brought his family with him to court when he became the Old King's Hand.

It may be that the Citadel used the connections it could make during the days of the Hightower Handship and presence at court to implement their plans to kill the dragons, but this is not actually necessary. There are hints that there was a guiding (and unseen) hand behind the Storming of the Dragonpit (which could have involved agents of the Citadels pretending to fight for the Green cause).

But this is not really necessary. The Citadel would have had more than enough time to target the surviving dragons or implement plans to the slow and ultimate destruction of the dragons during the Regency of Aegon III. Grand Maester Munkun was at one point the sole regent, the Hand of the King, and the Grand Maester of the Realm. That would have given him an enormous amount of power - in fact, he would have been effectively the king himself (and was most likely the man who convened the Great Council of 136 AC). In such a position he certainly could have taken measures to poison dragons, etc.

You have to keep in mind that the Citadel is actually a progressive institution, not some weirdo evil conspiracy club. We know they are trying to build a world of reason, science, and law. And while they don't like magic very much it may actually have been the Dance which opened their eyes to the devastating effects a civil fought with dozens of dragons can have on the general population as well as the Realm at large. Thus they had to do.

If Daemon Blackfyre had had access to dragons there would have been another Dance in 196 AC.

 

    If there was one thing common between Citadel and Hightowers, they were both too ambitious and powerful at that time, one of the facts that convinced me about this theory was, Citadel's headquarters is located in Oldtown and Hightowers played a big role in founding and financing Citadel. Because of that Hightowers and Citadel had an alliance similar to Starks had with Nights Watch. Hightowers may not even have an idea about Citadels plan.

  Maesters also have power over their lords even without becoming hand, they are supposed to be politically natural but Maester Pycelle was Tywins trusted man. Lady Barbey Dustin even calls them "gray rats". They have access to poisons, moon teas and all informations about health. They could do anything and no one might notice.

Aemon Targaryen was the oldest and wisest maester in Westeros. He should have been titled Archmaester long time ago and in Samwells POV in AFFC we have this interesting conversation;

Quote

"If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can."

  You're absolutely right, about Maesters being aware of destruction made by dragons so getting rid of them would work on their favor. Also according to some people last hatchings were poisoned. Last hatclings were small and weak so even if they were poisoned healthy Dragons before them were strong, ancient and large so even if Citadel wanted to poison them Maesters would need significant amount of poison to kill them, which would be quite suspicious in my opinion.

Although this is just a theory, there is one fact intrigues me about this theory, all we know about Dance of the Dragons was written by a Maester and history is written by the winners. According to this they might have change some facts about themselves to seem more neutral. After Rhaenyra's death Gyldayn's books imply how she bleed on the throne (she always wore armor) and how Ser Harwin was her Velaryon kids father. 

 If this theory turns out to be true, in my opinion Hightowers had no idea about how they were used. They were so blinded by their greed to see forest from the trees.

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Violet said:

    Ser Harwing being their father is also a theory although it doesn't change the fact that Rhaenyra had 3 children who had brown hair and eyes, and a pug nose. Did anyone else had more than 1 nV looking kid?

<snip

Harwin being their father is an in-world theory, not a fan theory. It doesn't change the nV aspect, but it would have been immensely helpful if there was a factual source that verified Aemma Arryn looking like her Arryn father instead of her Valyrian Targaryen mother. Every V+nV = nV counts.

And no we don't know of any other V+nV pairings that produced more than one nV child. You're right about that.

ETA: Being an archmaester requires dedicating oneself to a specific area of study for more than just what the average maester learns. If Aemon had wanted to be an archmaester he would have stayed at the Citadel for advanced study, but he didn't. 

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27 minutes ago, Violet said:

    Ser Harwing being their father is also a theory although it doesn't change the fact that Rhaenyra had 3 children who had brown hair and eyes, and a pug nose. Did anyone else had more than 1 nV looking kid?

 

Not that I could ever find, or was brought up before when my theory was questioned. The subsequent children all seem to have either full Targ looks, or a mixture, say, maybe the purple eyes but brown hair. Or, silver hair, brown eyes. That type of thing.

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13 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

So is Aegon II the exception or...?

Yes. He was one of the two George brought up as having a Targ look, and then agreeing that he has an "identity crisis". The other George brought up that he said had an identity crisis was Rhaenyra. I don't think we should take the phrase "crisis" too literally. Just as something unprecedented from the norm, and these two lead to the Dance.

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12 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes. He was one of the two George brought up as having a Targ look, and then agreeing that he has an "identity crisis". The other George brought up that he said had an identity crisis was Rhaenyra. I don't think we should take the phrase "crisis" too literally. Just as something unprecedented from the norm, and these two lead to the Dance.

But Rhaenyra wasn't firstborn. Just the first/only to survive. 

Aegon II would be the outlier/exception for sure. 

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25 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

But Rhaenyra wasn't firstborn. Just the first/only to survive. 

Aegon II would be the outlier/exception for sure. 

I do have that noted, but I don't have my notes at the minute, but that is one George brought up. I think I had an * next to her as I do Bloodraven for a similar reason. 

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26 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

But Rhaenyra wasn't firstborn. Just the first/only to survive. 

Aegon II would be the outlier/exception for sure. 

Oh, also, I believe her mother has more Targ looks because of her birth and she passed that on. 

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42 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh, also, I believe her mother has more Targ looks because of her birth and she passed that on. 

But we don't really know because we have no description for Aemma. And if Aemma did have the Arryn look, then it's possible that her firstborn with Viserys did as well. Rhaenyra's having not been born first technically disqualifies her from the exact formula. Of course Aemma being half Targ could certainly pass on Targ genes, but she could have passed on Arryn genes as well.

I'm interested in the concept of the "identity" crisis. Will have to send you a PM about that.

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10 hours ago, Violet said:

If there was one thing common between Citadel and Hightowers, they were both too ambitious and powerful at that time, one of the facts that convinced me about this theory was, Citadel's headquarters is located in Oldtown and Hightowers played a big role in founding and financing Citadel. Because of that Hightowers and Citadel had an alliance similar to Starks had with Nights Watch. Hightowers may not even have an idea about Citadels plan.

That is difficult to believe. The Hightowers are very close to the Citadel and they have a lot of means to learn what's going on behind its walls by using agents, etc. than the Citadel might be aware.

There are hints that the Hightowers used maesters like the maester of Storm's End as pawns in their game during the Dance, not the other way around. Borros Baratheon could not read and his maester whispered the contents of Rhaenyra's letter into his ears. How do we know that he actually told him the truth and did not change the contents?

10 hours ago, Violet said:

Maesters also have power over their lords even without becoming hand, they are supposed to be politically natural but Maester Pycelle was Tywins trusted man. Lady Barbey Dustin even calls them "gray rats". They have access to poisons, moon teas and all informations about health. They could do anything and no one might notice.

Well, it is pretty clear that the Dance was a war caused by personal animosity between key members of the royal family, not something the maesters had a lot to do with.

10 hours ago, Violet said:

You're absolutely right, about Maesters being aware of destruction made by dragons so getting rid of them would work on their favor. Also according to some people last hatchings were poisoned. Last hatclings were small and weak so even if they were poisoned healthy Dragons before them were strong, ancient and large so even if Citadel wanted to poison them Maesters would need significant amount of poison to kill them, which would be quite suspicious in my opinion.

The key reason why it makes little sense to assume the Citadel did not want to cause a civil war fought with dragons is that such a war could easily enough destroy the Realm. Again, the maesters are not some evil conspirators. They have an agenda founded on reason, science, and law - not chaos and destruction.

Considering that Oldtown is the seat of House Hightower and House Hightower was a major player during the Dance it would have been not all that unlikely that Rhaenyra's guys might have taken, say, Syrax, Caraxes, and Meleys down to Oldtown to burn down that city during the war. That would have been the end of the Citadel.

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14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Coolbeard the Exile , or anyone else still interested, I know the hour is late for me to finally be posting this, but work has been hell this week (and probably next week too :crying:).

So yes, I did have a chance to ask George about my T+nT first born theory, and he had some interesting things to say, and ask, about it, but basically, he never said "no" as he so often does when answering questions about a theory. Here is the main theory thread below, and then my write up about my entire weekend after that.

I explained my findings, the whole first born to a Targ does not look like the Targ parent thing, and he asked why I thought that. I explained why, and I had my note card with me as not to forget any specifics. HE brought up two names that I have listed in my theory as being the example of an inverted reason why they do not look like Targs, which is basically these two had an "identity crisis", to which he agreed right away they did. And then he asked me a few more questions, took the notecard to look at it (yes, I still have that notecard. I am never washing it again! ^_^), and said "you know a lot," and then something like I should join the fangroup Brotherhood without Banners.

Funny enough, when I first explained what I found and why I thought so, he got a little upset looking, leaned back in his chair away from me, and his voice became a little rigid because he thought that I was trying to claim he made the Targaryens a "master race" and was quick to tell me there is no such thing in his books. I was a little nervous that he would just write me off, but after I explained again, he understood better and we had the conversation mentioned above.

 

Hey, I just read the other stuff. Super cool, but I was very dismayed that the George chose the lemon pie! 

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1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hey, I just read the other stuff. Super cool, but I was very dismayed that the George chose the lemon pie! 

I was like :blink::blink::blink: when he did. He did not finish it completely. Nor his coffee (abomination!!!!)

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9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

But we don't really know because we have no description for Aemma. And if Aemma did have the Arryn look, then it's possible that her firstborn with Viserys did as well. Rhaenyra's having not been born first technically disqualifies her from the exact formula. Of course Aemma being half Targ could certainly pass on Targ genes, but she could have passed on Arryn genes as well.

I'm interested in the concept of the "identity" crisis. Will have to send you a PM about that.

The crisis thing was simply the power struggle and what resulted. It went against the norm of what was intended, as is reflected in their looks.

Aemma was the first born to Daella Targaryen and Rodrick Arryn. The description we have of the Arryns all give them the blonde looks (I am still going by memory because I cannot find my original long notes- just my small notecard I had with me). This was discussed and pointed out in the Targ/nonTarg thread and George seemed ok with it. Also, Viserys I was all Targ from atleast two generations back, so between the two of them, the blonde(gold)/blue can get mixedin with the silver-gold/purple, because we know that the purple color ranges from blue to violet.

We have this for Jon Arryn:

Jon had broad shoulders.[4] Half of his teeth had fallen out by the time he married Lady Lysa Tully.[6] As a younger man he resembled Harrold Hardyng, who has blue eyes, blonde hair, and an aquiline nose.[7]

I also just found some info that I am going to add to the other T/nT thread that points out how this also happens when Rhaelle Targaryen had babies with Ormund, and the theory follows that line as well.

Feel free to pm me with anything else. I will be here off and on today between other work to be done :cheers:

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is difficult to believe. The Hightowers are very close to the Citadel and they have a lot of means to learn what's going on behind its walls by using agents, etc. than the Citadel might be aware.

There are hints that the Hightowers used maesters like the maester of Storm's End as pawns in their game during the Dance, not the other way around. Borros Baratheon could not read and his maester whispered the contents of Rhaenyra's letter into his ears. How do we know that he actually told him the truth and did not change the contents?

Well, it is pretty clear that the Dance was a war caused by personal animosity between key members of the royal family, not something the maesters had a lot to do with.

The key reason why it makes little sense to assume the Citadel did not want to cause a civil war fought with dragons is that such a war could easily enough destroy the Realm. Again, the maesters are not some evil conspirators. They have an agenda founded on reason, science, and law - not chaos and destruction.

Considering that Oldtown is the seat of House Hightower and House Hightower was a major player during the Dance it would have been not all that unlikely that Rhaenyra's guys might have taken, say, Syrax, Caraxes, and Meleys down to Oldtown to burn down that city during the war. That would have been the end of the Citadel.

Your arguments are very convincing, it's just that I'm a conspiracy theorist at heart and always look at underneath the underneath.

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3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The crisis thing was simply the power struggle and what resulted. It went against the norm of what was intended, as is reflected in their looks.

Aemma was the first born to Daella Targaryen and Rodrick Arryn. The description we have of the Arryns all give them the blonde looks (I am still going by memory because I cannot find my original long notes- just my small notecard I had with me). This was discussed and pointed out in the Targ/nonTarg thread and George seemed ok with it. Also, Viserys I was all Targ from atleast two generations back, so between the two of them, the blonde(gold)/blue can get mixedin with the silver-gold/purple, because we know that the purple color ranges from blue to violet.

We have this for Jon Arryn:

Jon had broad shoulders.[4] Half of his teeth had fallen out by the time he married Lady Lysa Tully.[6] As a younger man he resembled Harrold Hardyng, who has blue eyes, blonde hair, and an aquiline nose.[7]

I also just found some info that I am going to add to the other T/nT thread that points out how this also happens when Rhaelle Targaryen had babies with Ormund, and the theory follows that line as well.

Feel free to pm me with anything else. I will be here off and on today between other work to be done :cheers:

As in the exception that proves the rule? 

Please tag me when you add to the other T/nT thread so I can see the new info. :cheers:

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15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The crisis thing was simply the power struggle and what resulted. It went against the norm of what was intended, as is reflected in their looks.

Aemma was the first born to Daella Targaryen and Rodrick Arryn. The description we have of the Arryns all give them the blonde looks (I am still going by memory because I cannot find my original long notes- just my small notecard I had with me). This was discussed and pointed out in the Targ/nonTarg thread and George seemed ok with it. Also, Viserys I was all Targ from atleast two generations back, so between the two of them, the blonde(gold)/blue can get mixedin with the silver-gold/purple, because we know that the purple color ranges from blue to violet.

We have this for Jon Arryn:

Jon had broad shoulders.[4] Half of his teeth had fallen out by the time he married Lady Lysa Tully.[6] As a younger man he resembled Harrold Hardyng, who has blue eyes, blonde hair, and an aquiline nose.[7]

I also just found some info that I am going to add to the other T/nT thread that points out how this also happens when Rhaelle Targaryen had babies with Ormund, and the theory follows that line as well.

Feel free to pm me with anything else. I will be here off and on today between other work to be done :cheers:

We truly only know Harry the Heir's coloring.  Harry supposedly has Jon Arryn's "look" but we don't know if this includes build, facial features, coloring, or a combination of some or all of these traits.

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