Jump to content

What does House Royce remember?


hiemal

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, hiemal said:

That's been my most probable pick as well. I wish we knew more about runes and their connection with magic in ASoIaF. I'm tempted to ascribe to them the kind of power of "true-naming" that many earthly societies going through their adolescence of literacy seem to have left us but GRRM seems to stress that the runes of the first men weren't much use for the recording of history. Maybe because there is no longer anyone but the Royce's remembers how to read them?

Or at least did at the point at the past when they chose their words.

The runes are about magic, not about recording history. That's my take anyway. I bet the CotF could read them, and I'd be surprised if the Others couldn't.  

Other 1: "Hey don't worry, it's just bronze we can deal with that."

Other 2 moves closer: "Oh no, they're runed! Run!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is probably a Thenn or OG Wildling 1st Man who can probably read the runes.  The house words originated in something important.  I have a sense that the original houses who had (purchased, won, stole whatever) the original 10 named VS swords played a crucial role in either forging the original pact or The Last Hero's quest.  We've got "We Remember", "Winter Is Coming", "First In Battle", "Hear Us Roar", "We Light The Way" and "Here We Stand" for the houses we can trace VS swords and words to.   3 house mottos are missing from that line up.  Perhaps as we learn more about the purpose of the prophesied heroes and ancient agreements we will have enough information to piece the significance of these house words together.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

The Bronze Kings were one of the most powerful First Men kings

Actually, they were relatively weak kings, compared to other first men kings (Starks, Lannisters, Greyirons, Mudds, Gardeners, Durrandons). They only ruled a small part of the Vale, compared to these other houses who ruled entire kingdoms

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

There is probably a Thenn or OG Wildling 1st Man who can probably read the runes.  The house words originated in something important.  I have a sense that the original houses who had (purchased, won, stole whatever) the original 10 named VS swords played a crucial role in either forging the original pact or The Last Hero's quest.  We've got "We Remember", "Winter Is Coming", "First In Battle", "Hear Us Roar", "We Light The Way" and "Here We Stand" for the houses we can trace VS swords and words to.   3 house mottos are missing from that line up.  Perhaps as we learn more about the purpose of the prophesied heroes and ancient agreements we will have enough information to piece the significance of these house words together.   

Ooh! Ooh! What if Mance can read them? No reason for this idea, just that it would be cool and give him another use in the story.

 

12 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

Actually, they were relatively weak kings, compared to other first men kings (Starks, Lannisters, Greyirons, Mudds, Gardeners, Durrandons). They only ruled a small part of the Vale, compared to these other houses who ruled entire kingdoms

That doesn't necessarily mean they were weak. If they held their little kingdom against larger forces--assuming anybody wanted it, that is--that implies strength. Maybe they just weren't ambitious and were happy to stay in their little corner of the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The runes are about magic, not about recording history. That's my take anyway. I bet the CotF could read them, and I'd be surprised if the Others couldn't.  

Other 1: "Hey don't worry, it's just bronze we can deal with that."

Other 2 moves closer: "Oh no, they're runed! Run!"

I wonder if these runes could be inscribed on steel or on valyrian steel:

Spoiler

In TWoW chapter The Forsaken doesn't Euron's suit of vs armor have runes on it? Or are those glyphs? And is there a significant difference?

I'm also curious if un-runed bronze might react differently to the Others' crystal swords than steel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That doesn't necessarily mean they were weak. If they held their little kingdom against larger forces--assuming anybody wanted it, that is--that implies strength. Maybe they just weren't ambitious and were happy to stay in their little corner of the world.

It does, speaking in terms of military power, smaller lands mean less vassals sworn to you, which means less army strength and less money collected from taxes.

Having the power to defend his own lands agaisn't larger forces are no indication of power, since it is known that a small garrison can hold a fortified position agaisn't many times the number of attackers. Besides, smaller territory means less holdings/castles to defend, so it is easier to defend it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

It does, speaking in terms of military power, smaller lands mean less vassals sworn to you, which means less army strength and less money collected from taxes.

Having the power to defend his own lands agaisn't larger forces are no indication of power, since it is known that a small garrison can hold a fortified position agaisn't many times the number of attackers. Besides, smaller territory means less holdings/castles to defend.

Military power as defined in what terms? Having the military power to protect and defend your homeland is a pretty big deal. Not having the military power to conquer more territory is only an issue for the ambitious or the greedy. 

Smaller lands and fewer vassals does not necessarily equal lower tax incomes. That depends entirely on the wealth of the vassals. It's arguable that the Kings in the North had to have such large territory precisely because their vassals were not wealthy.

Weak means different things to different people. That was my point. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I wonder if these runes could be inscribed on steel or on valyrian steel:

  Reveal hidden contents

In TWoW chapter The Forsaken doesn't Euron's suit of vs armor have runes on it? Or are those glyphs? And is there a significant difference?

I'm also curious if un-runed bronze might react differently to the Others' crystal swords than steel.

If the runes are magical, then use that might make the bronze react differently to the Others' swords. But I have no idea about regular bronze.

Differences between glyphs and runes are subject to some debate. Some would say they're the same thing with different names, others would point to different cultural origins. Some would say runes indicate words, but glyphs are pictures (hence the term hieroglyphics). Within the series I'm guessing they're probably the same thing but runes are First Men/CotF and glyphs are Valyrian/Essosi/Asshai'i

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Military power as defined in what terms? Having the military power to protect and defend your homeland is a pretty big deal. Not having the military power to conquer more territory is only an issue for the ambitious or the greedy.

In terms of raw power, number of soldiers. Yes, the military power to conquer more lands are only an issue for the ambitions, but IT IS military power after all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

In terms of raw power, number of soldiers. Yes, the military power to conquer more lands are only an issue for the ambitions, but IT IS military power after all.

True. I just think maybe the little kingdom in the Vale didn't think in those terms. Or maybe they too minor for anyone to mess with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Military power as defined in what terms?

That is the question. I think that dragons have already shown us that calculating strategic/military might solely in earthly terms might be a mistake on par with that made by the Westerosi kings on the Field of Fire. My question is; if the Royces bolstered their martial forces with some unknown power, have they forgotten it utterly? Is there someone in Runestone mirroring Lord Hightower and the Mad Maid in their efforts to raise an army or to remember lost arts? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

Actually, they were relatively weak kings, compared to other first men kings (Starks, Lannisters, Greyirons, Mudds, Gardeners, Durrandons). They only ruled a small part of the Vale, compared to these other houses who ruled entire kingdoms

The Bronze Kings were the first to unite the First Men of the Vale. Sure, they didn't rule over the entire Vale, but even the Starks had to beat their rivals (the Barrowkings, the Warg Kings, the Marsh Kings, etc.), and they didn't have to contend with incoming Andals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Ooh! Ooh! What if Mance can read them? No reason for this idea, just that it would be cool and give him another use in the story.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean they were weak. If they held their little kingdom against larger forces--assuming anybody wanted it, that is--that implies strength. Maybe they just weren't ambitious and were happy to stay in their little corner of the world.

Why not indeed!  Mance plays multiple important parts in this story.  I think your idea is a fitting future role for him to play.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

The Bronze Kings were the first to unite the First Men of the Vale. Sure, they didn't rule over the entire Vale, but even the Starks had to beat their rivals (the Barrowkings, the Warg Kings, the Marsh Kings, etc.), and they didn't have to contend with incoming Andals.

They absolutely had to contend with the Andals. They just did it by killing them all or driving them off. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

They absolutely had to contend with the Andals. They just did it by killing them all or driving them off. 

Ehh, kind of, The Andals raided once, the Starks repelled them and then took the fight to them, then their geograpich advantage of Moat Calin and the neck repelled any further attempts. The Royces and the First Men of the Vale were the first ones to be face with the Andal threat and by the time the Vale Kings united, the wolf was already at their doorstep. Perhaps if the petty kings hadn't invited a bunch of Andal adventuerers to fight their wars for them, the Royces or the Hunters or Redforts or whoever else there was could have done what Theon Stark did.

Of course, the Starks by then seem to have mostly solidified their hold on the North, thought that also might have been the result of necessity when you consider that the First Men of the North had to come together to fight the threat of the Others. There is no mention of the fighting spreading past the North, so while the rest of Westeros had to deal with the winter that came with it, I would hazard a guess that the Long night would have been the catalist for the Starks unifing the North, while the Vale was left with squabbling petty kings, who prior to the Andal invasion never had cause to unite, In both cases of the Riverlands and the Vale, there was no eternal threat up until the Andal invasion like there was for the North, The Stormlands, the Reach, and Dorn (the latter three being each other's external threats).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Why not indeed!  Mance plays multiple important parts in this story.  I think your idea is a fitting future role for him to play.   

Hey CF, are you the one who asked me to revisit and update my Mance theory? I swear I used to be able to remember things a lot better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

Ehh, kind of, The Andals raided once, the Starks repelled them and then took the fight to them, then their geograpich advantage of Moat Calin and the neck repelled any further attempts. The Royces and the First Men of the Vale were the first ones to be face with the Andal threat and by the time the Vale Kings united, the wolf was already at their doorstep. Perhaps if the petty kings hadn't invited a bunch of Andal adventuerers to fight their wars for them, the Royces or the Hunters or Redforts or whoever else there was could have done what Theon Stark did.

Of course, the Starks by then seem to have mostly solidified their hold on the North, thought that also might have been the result of necessity when you consider that the First Men of the North had to come together to fight the threat of the Others. There is no mention of the fighting spreading past the North, so while the rest of Westeros had to deal with the winter that came with it, I would hazard a guess that the Long night would have been the catalist for the Starks unifing the North, while the Vale was left with squabbling petty kings, who prior to the Andal invasion never had cause to unite, In both cases of the Riverlands and the Vale, there was no eternal threat up until the Andal invasion like there was for the North, The Stormlands, the Reach, and Dorn (the latter three being each other's external threats).

That would be news to the Starks.

“Crossing the narrow sea in their hundreds and thousands, the longships of the Andals made landings in the North just as they did to the south, but wherever they came ashore, the Starks and their bannermen fell upon them and drove them back into the sea. King Theon Stark, known to history as the Hungry Wolf, turned back the greatest of these threats, making common cause with the Boltons to smash the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar at the Battle of the Weeping Water.”

There is a reason they had to ally with the Boltons instead of calling the banners. Depending on when you believe the Andals were coming over (2000,4000,6000 years), the Starks still were conquering the North. The Boltons were independent. The land where the Manderlys would settle was poorly governed. Bear Island was constantly switching hands. So was Cape Kraken and the Stony Shore. There were been a bunch of rebellions too, so I would hotly contest the "mostly solidified". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

It's ironic. They wrote down what they meant to remember, but they forgot how to read the damned runes.

 

Seriously though, I suppose they remember their First Men heritage.

This. I think it ties in with what Waymar was doing at the Wall in the first place. Or why Bronze Yohn personally escorted him. They still take First Men stuff seriously. Nobody else still thinks the NW is an honorable calling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...