The Dornish are Annoying Too

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

Well Daenerys and Viserys didn't even know about the pact. 

He could have joined Renly/Stannis/Robb and turned the tide possibly, not sure but its still an opportunity to get back at the Lannisters. he's constantly waiting. If he didn't know about Aegon, and didn't move to Dany for 15-16 years it seems like he was wasting time.

Viserys was too young to know about the pact at first, and Doran probably lost track of them shortly after Willem Darry's death.

Joining Renly or Stannis wasn't going to happen because they were Robert's brothers. Joining Robb was unlikely because he was too far away, Doran didn't have a safe way to connect his troops to Robb's, and because an alliance with the King in the North guarantees nothing in terms of revenge when you don't know the KitN. Doran wants a sure thing, or as close to it as he can get. That requires a lot of patience. 

3 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I don't have a problem with the initial thought of Quentyn marrying Dany since Viserys is dead. It's not a bad initial thought. However, it's the full context that is the issue and Quentyn is aware of the full context when he still has the time to make a better plan. It's not like he only found out once he got to Meereen. If that were the case I wouldn't hold it against him as much.

You're right. Her power does derive from her dragons. She wouldn't have the army or Meereen without them. That doesn't change anything though. She still has her own power and doesn't need a man just for the sake of having a man. And Quentyn should be fully aware of this fact.

He's not absolved from a bad decision just because he's a nice kid. Just like Ned isn't absolved from the idiocy of telling Cersei just because he's a nice guy. Also you can't say he doesn't have a flare for heroics when it was his idea to steal the dragons.

I like that theory especially since I don't think Drogon was trying to kill Dany in the fighting pit. The only issue I have with it is if it's true and Quentyn is alive then he's a dragonrider. And I'm not a fan of him being a dragon rider though I wouldn't mind him being alive. Lol. But  definitely viable theory considering we only know a few things about how dragonriding works and the only real evidence we have about it is Dany's interactions with Drogon

Again, Quentyn isn't the type who can make better plans just like that. Really Oberyn was the best guy to send to bring Dany back to Westeros, but he was dead so they had to work with what they had.

An eighteen year old in a medieval world should be aware of it? If Quent was known as a really sharp cookie, I'd absolutely agree but honestly I rate his intelligence just above average. 

One of the really sad things about Quentyn is that if he hadn't been fostered with the Yronwoods, Doran would have seen his abilities (or lack thereof in this case) while he was growing up, and would have known Quent was not the best choice for this assignment.

I didn't say it absolved him of bad decisions. But you can't expect him to do what he's not capable of doing. Stealing a dragon was not heroics. Killing one that was ravaging the countryside would be heroics. Stealing a dragon was, as you say, stupid. Even if it had worked, it would still have been stupid. I'd say Quent has a definite flair for desperation. 

Glad to hear it...er read it.

Not necessarily. He'd still have to get on the dragon and ride, which he clearly hasn't done and wouldn't be in any shape to do for a long time. But if he's alive after all of that, he better get a dragon. I think he's earned it. 

Don't worry, if he does ride he's probably going to end up dead again anyway. Quentyn would be the guy who dies by falling off the dragon in mid-flight, cluing Tyrion and company in to the need for dragon saddles like Aegon I used. He is the nobleman who can't cut it and might as well be an everyman. He's actually kind of a nice contrast to all those characters who have some wonderful gift, or think way more of themselves than they should...the underachiever who knows he's an underachiever. Darn, now I want him to be alive too!

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

Doran is a bad player for 2 reasons: 

1) A good player knows the board will never be 100% in his favor and that he can't wait forever to make his move because by then it'll be too late. Doran wants his cake and eat it too. He wants to win everything without risking anything, and that's just not possible. He lost Dany and Viserys to Illyrio's schemes for not reaching out to them sooner, he lost potential allies in his bid for the Iron Throne like Robb or even Balon, and is quite likely that he even lost Myrcella, by far the biggest stroke of luck he's had.

2) A good player knows his strengths and weaknesses. Love him or hate him, Tywin knew this when he said, "There's a task for every tool and a tool for every task". Doran keeps sending family members to do tasks they're simply not equipped or prepare to perform. Oberyn's recklessness was sure to cause a mess in KL, but his swag and knowledge of Essos might've swayed Dany. Arianne's experience in court could've worked wonders in KL without getting her killed. Quentyn could've been a more impartial judge of the benefits of an alliance with Aegon. Basically, Dorne picks the wrong people for the right tasks. The guy is just a bad judge of character.

[Leo of House Cartel]

Dornish passion seems much like Mexican passion, The Sand Snakes just needed time to Tranquilo.

The Red Viper always reminded me of a demented Eddy Guerrero.

[Castellan]

2 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Doran is a bad player for 2 reasons: 

1) A good player knows the board will never be 100% in his favor and that he can't wait forever to make his move because by then it'll be too late. Doran wants his cake and eat it too. He wants to win everything without risking anything, and that's just not possible. He lost Dany and Viserys to Illyrio's schemes for not reaching out to them sooner, he lost potential allies in his bid for the Iron Throne like Robb or even Balon, and is quite likely that he even lost Myrcella, by far the biggest stroke of luck he's had.

2) A good player knows his strengths and weaknesses. Love him or hate him, Tywin knew this when he said, "There's a task for every tool and a tool for every task". Doran keeps sending family members to do tasks they're simply not equipped or prepare to perform. Oberyn's recklessness was sure to cause a mess in KL, but his swag and knowledge of Essos might've swayed Dany. Arianne's experience in court could've worked wonders in KL without getting her killed. Quentyn could've been a more impartial judge of the benefits of an alliance with Aegon. Basically, Dorne picks the wrong people for the right tasks. The guy is just a bad judge of character.

Exactly, after a couple of reads and elapsed time for ideas to sink I found Doran very annoying. The reader can find him wise and sympathetic because he is not excessively vengeful and argues for caution, but eventually I just started to see him as not only rationalising inaction as caution but plain dumb. I'm afraid I find Arianne & Quentyn dumb too. I suppose they have been kept in the dark for their own protection and not given tasks that would teach them how to deal with problems. And Dorne is a small and more isolated former Kingdom than the others. But the almost unbelievable stupidity is Doran's predilection for sending his small number of heirs off on dangerous missions that could have been carried out by others. Treating with Dany required a skilled diplomat, given that Quentyn is not prepossessing in himself there was not much point in sending him along, any decision Dany made would be based on making alliances. (Granted my argument may be contradicted by the fact that Quentyn and his two companions actually made it to Dany whereas the diplomat in the group perished.) Now Arianne is off to meet Aegon and judge if he is a true dragon. Twice so far she has refused an offer to learn anything about dragons - while imprisoned and looking for a book to read she rejects one on dragons, ad on her mission to Westeros she again rejects an offer to read about dragons in rare books, even after the daughter of the house has a prophetic fit about dragon wars. I think this is meant to be a little hint about her fitness for the job.

The sandsnakes are just fantasy novel cliches to me, not to mention the hot blooded people from hot countries cliche, writhing bundles of sex and vengeance. Except "Alleras" of course, she is a different cliche. I feel GRRM has just thrown a job lot of females into the plot.

[Maxxine]

36 minutes ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

I assume you don't class Oberyn as annoying because he was one of the most entertaining short term characters.

Some of the Sand snakes are very annoying but I find Doran very interesting. Quentin was a bit of let down if he has died. 

 

That's exactly why. He's entertainment value outweighs his one bad moment of trying to get the Mountain to confess instead of just killing. Plus what we find out about him after he dies helps too.

I don't find Doran interesting at all. May be the plans he has put into motion are interesting. But as a character he's not really doing anything. I guess that's why we get Hotah's POV instead of his even though Hotah not that interesting either but I expect Hotah to have a bigger role moving forward other than just watching Doran.

[Maxxine]

48 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Again, Quentyn isn't the type who can make better plans just like that. Really Oberyn was the best guy to send to bring Dany back to Westeros, but he was dead so they had to work with what they had.

An eighteen year old in a medieval world should be aware of it? If Quent was known as a really sharp cookie, I'd absolutely agree but honestly I rate his intelligence just above average. 

One of the really sad things about Quentyn is that if he hadn't been fostered with the Yronwoods, Doran would have seen his abilities (or lack thereof in this case) while he was growing up, and would have known Quent was not the best choice for this assignment.

I didn't say it absolved him of bad decisions. But you can't expect him to do what he's not capable of doing. Stealing a dragon was not heroics. Killing one that was ravaging the countryside would be heroics. Stealing a dragon was, as you say, stupid. Even if it had worked, it would still have been stupid. I'd say Quent has a definite flair for desperation. 

Glad to hear it...er read it.

Not necessarily. He'd still have to get on the dragon and ride, which he clearly hasn't done and wouldn't be in any shape to do for a long time. But if he's alive after all of that, he better get a dragon. I think he's earned it. 

Don't worry, if he does ride he's probably going to end up dead again anyway. Quentyn would be the guy who dies by falling off the dragon in mid-flight, cluing Tyrion and company in to the need for dragon saddles like Aegon I used. He is the nobleman who can't cut it and might as well be an everyman. He's actually kind of a nice contrast to all those characters who have some wonderful gift, or think way more of themselves than they should...the underachiever who knows he's an underachiever. Darn, now I want him to be alive too!

I don't know if saying he isn't capable of changing the plan or wasn't intelligent enough to realize he would need more than his presence would be needed to get Dany is actually different from what I'm saying. You may even be giving him less credit than I am. I think he had the capability to at least figure out this may not be the best plan even if he can't come up with a new one. He just never paused to think about it because he has a one track mind. "My father told me to this so I'm going to do it."

I do agree that Oberyn would have been better suited to go to Dany and Quent to KL and that's more on Doran. That's actually really interesting to think about. Dany would've loooved Oberyn and vice versa. And Quent wouldn't have caused in waves in KL and would've just observed like Oberyn was supposed to do. My only worry is Quentyn would have been like a Ned in "playing the game."

[PCK]

I think the point of the Dornish arc is ultimately that it's the children who suffer for their parents misdeeds and the futility of vengeance. It harkins back to what Varys said, "why is it always the innocents who suffer when you high lords play your game of thrones?" Elia and her children are killed really because of all the past slights Tywin suffered at the hands of Aerys. 

Quentyn dies trying to seal an alliance for "blood and fire" as retribution of this. 

When Arianne tries to do something, it's Myrcella who gets her ear sliced off. If/when Dorne decides to join Aegon's cause, it will be Tommen, Myrcella, and Cersei who suffer for the actions of Tywin and the Mountain.  It could be a similar scenario as Joffrey, where we see this is really a kid being forced into a situation he was not ready to handle and scared, clawing out his throat in an attempt to survive. 

If Aegon and Daenerys fight in another Dance of Dragons, the children in the Water Gardens may be the ones who suffer. 

[Oakhearts head]

Arys Oakheart is the best POV in Dorne (Arriane's nipples).

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

28 minutes ago, Oakhearts head said:

Arys Oakheart is the best POV in Dorne (Arriane's nipples).

The other POVs in Dorne are Hotah and Arianne, so it's not a very high bar. 

Btw, I will forever believe that GRRM chose to include Arys' POV solely so he could describe Arianne's nipples. I mean, maybe there are other reasons but I think that was the deciding factor. 

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

10 hours ago, Maxxine said:

That's exactly why. He's entertainment value outweighs his one bad moment of trying to get the Mountain to confess instead of just killing. Plus what we find out about him after he dies helps too.

I don't find Doran interesting at all. May be the plans he has put into motion are interesting. But as a character he's not really doing anything. I guess that's why we get Hotah's POV instead of his even though Hotah not that interesting either but I expect Hotah to have a bigger role moving forward other than just watching Doran.

Yeah I agree that Doran hasn't done much yet but I don't think GRRM brought him just for him to do nothing. He'll likely have a big impact in the next book. I would quite like it we could have some chapters with Hotah in battle to see how could he is. I don't want him to be killed like in the show as that was very disappointing. 

[Protagoras]

I have written about this before, but Doran gets dumber after every reread. 

He comes off as this wise patriarch who is peaceful and careful, but that facade cracks more and more after evey reread. He undermines, fails to educate (No, as queen you need more skills than party-planning. Balon does an excellent job with Asha and he lives in the misogynistic Iron Isles) and is in general completely wrong about Arianne, has no idea how to use his resources nor the people around him - chiefly because he doesn´t tell them enough, nor are good to judge their abilities and only semi-commits to ideas, making him weak to sudden changes. And yes, him sending the wrong people to the wrong places are almost comical. His hot-headed, attractive, essos-experienced brother is sent to the nest of vipers known as King´s landing, while the virgin son who has said cool head is sent to seduce a woman in essos with a small group (Just compare with Euron, who also want Daenerys - or at least her dragons. He sends the entire Iron fleet. Thats how you make an impression) with an old document and empty words. 

The marriage pact is a stellar example on some Doran-stupidity. He did nothing to support the Targs when they really, really needed some assistance with baser needs, like money (something that would be easy for him to funnel through the sealord or any of his other contacts in Essos), then later sends Quentyn with a 15 year old document that not includes the persons in question and which basically only give dornish support if they show up with an army anyway. Which begs the question why exactly they should be rewarded with a royal marriage. Nor does it help that Quentyn falsely states that they have 50000 spears, because Doran think it is good policy to not only keep the true number hidden from Quentyn but also from Daenerys, who might be surprised that she only get 40% of the force promised. Sure, some lying here is expected, but this is at very best half the force. 

But I have been through this before so lets talk about what Doran know, or rather not know. He knows nothing about Daenerys, nothing about her political aims, nothing about basically anything. And he doesn´t make it easier for Quentyn to learn since the book about dragons is given to Arianne. Further, Daenerys will be told that a pact existed but it gave her nothing until she had power. Well, if I were her I would be angry. They had the means and will to help her and Viserys and did nothing. That turned Viserys into the shattered joke that he was and later died because he felt abandoned. And now these assholes say that they meant to help, but not until later and that they now want you to fulfill your obligation you didn´t know about. Looks like we have some candidates to become dragon food here. And their MO is very strange. They want Daenerys to be helped, to bring her back - but they only want to do tha if she is strong enough, but a strong Daenerys is far less likely to agree than a weak Daenerys. What if Daenerys had an army of 200000 soldiers and simply said that she didn´t need dornish support?

Edit: Another problem is the document itself. According the Arya, the sealordis sick (and Darry have been dead for long). So, few of the signators remain alive/active. This really furthers the idea that Oberyn should be sent to Daenerys, since he was one of the persons actually signing that damm thing!

[Lord Wraith]

On 2/18/2017 at 4:14 PM, Blue Tiger said:

Just small advice:

Mayne make one 'Annoying things' thread, so you don't start one thread about the same thing every day.

Sage advice.

[JLE]

Back in the 1950s, the then-world-Chess-Champion, Mikhail Botvinnik, was a champion in long-form chess matches of the old style - 2 hours 30 minutes for 40 moves, and the match going on for as many games as necessary for either player to reach the requisite number of victories while leading by a two-game margin, discounting draws (of which there would be many).

But in round-robin tournaments, with more than two players in the tournament, each playing the other only twice, and sometimes with a shorter time limit of more moves in fewer minutes, he had one annoying weakness: every so often he would get stuck in "championship" mode, and get into time trouble, and lose games as a result. Most usually this happens by taking too long to play his moves while the game was still in the balance, and then making mistakes when having to hurry and thus blunder into a lost position: but, just occasionally, it would happen that he would lose by time-out while still in a theoretically winning position, thanks spending too long looking for the most accurate way to enforce his advantage.

For some reason this story reminds me of Prince Doran Martell...