The Dornish are Annoying Too

[Maxxine]

In responding to the Aegon is annoying thread, I started thinking about other characters I find incredibly annoying and I started thinking about the Dornish. And I am talking about all of them that have significant page time with the exception of Oberyn, Arianne, and Alleras (assuming he really is Sarella). They are just all so unreasonable, have a warped sense of reality or just make really bad and stupid plans. Take for example the sand snakes after Oberyn dies. They are actually going about calling for revenge for Oberyn getting killed in a trial by combat that he volunteered to participate in. I would be okay with this. I can understand unreasonable grief. But then comes the warped sense of reality where they act as if he Gregor somehow behaved unfairly when they know Oberyn was the one using poison.

Then let's move on to the Quentyn/Doran plan to get Dany. Yeah just travel half way around the world with a piece of paper that mentions neither Quentyn nor Dany and she's going to drop everything to marry you even though you didn't bring anything with you (an army/sellswords/a fleet) and you're not even that good looking (and yes I think this played a part, not a huge part but Dany is a teenaged girl so I'm not going to act like that didn't matter at all. 50% Hizdahr marriage, 45% Quentyn didn't provide anything immediate that could help in Mereen, 5% he wasn't cute). Bad plan and warped sense of reality. Then Quentyn comes up with the idea of "I'm going to steal a dragon because that's what Dany wants. She wants me to prove myself." Another bad plan and warped sense of reality (I will admit there's something funny going on with that plan and its aftermath, but it was still a stupid plan regardless).

Then Drinkwater goes on and on about how the dragon thing is somehow Dany's fault because Quentyn gave her his heart and she laughed at him. 1) Quent did not love her. How could he? He didn't even know her. 2) She never laughed at him. She was actually nicer to him than he deserved considering the stupid plan. Unreasonable and warped sense of reality (unless there is actually something going on with dragons and this is a cover). And if Quentyn is actually dead I think the Dornish will blame Dany once they find  and that will push them to Aegon.

That's my little rant on Dornish. For what it's worth I don't mind their presence, it's the way they act that makes most of the annoying. How do others feel?  

[Bluetiger]

Just small advice:

Mayne make one 'Annoying things' thread, so you don't start one thread about the same thing every day.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I suggest a reread. You get that the Sand Snakes are grieving but don't understand why they're being unfair while grieving? I find it unusual that you can see one but not the other.

You've missed the boat on Quentyn completely.

The marriage agreement was meant to show Dany that her family in Dorne (distantly related though they are) did not forget about her and Viserys after the war. There was no reason to assume she was engaged to someone else. She even says that if Quentyn had showed up earlier she would have considered it. 

He decided to take a dragon not to impress Dany but because he refused to go back to his father with nothing.

Drinkwater is speaking from grief as well. Clearly you don't believe in love at first sight. It is indeed possible to love someone without knowing them. Not a good idea, but it's possible. 

Nicer to him than he deserved? Because of the stupid plan? The plan wasn't as stupid as you claim, and it wasn't Quentyn's plan. Why would Dany hold him accountable for it either way? She's too sensible, too intelligent, and too fair-minded to do so.

Doran may or may not blame Dany for Quentyn's death. He's a man who likes to have all the facts before acting. If anyone tells him that Dany wasn't in the city when Quentyn decided to steal one of the dragons, then it's unlikely he will blame her. The people of Dorne will listen to Doran.

I've heard/read that all of Dorne improves with rereading. You might want to give it a try.

[LindsayLohan]

Nymeria Sand is one HPOA. 

Also, paragraphs, bro.

[Maxxine]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I suggest a reread. You get that the Sand Snakes are grieving but don't understand why they're being unfair while grieving? I find it unusual that you can see one but not the other.

You've missed the boat on Quentyn completely.

The marriage agreement was meant to show Dany that her family in Dorne (distantly related though they are) did not forget about her and Viserys after the war. There was no reason to assume she was engaged to someone else. She even says that if Quentyn had showed up earlier she would have considered it. 

He decided to take a dragon not to impress Dany but because he refused to go back to his father with nothing.

Drinkwater is speaking from grief as well. Clearly you don't believe in love at first sight. It is indeed possible to love someone without knowing them. Not a good idea, but it's possible. 

Nicer to him than he deserved? Because of the stupid plan? The plan wasn't as stupid as you claim, and it wasn't Quentyn's plan. Why would Dany hold him accountable for it either way? She's too sensible, too intelligent, and too fair-minded to do so.

Doran may or may not blame Dany for Quentyn's death. He's a man who likes to have all the facts before acting. If anyone tells him that Dany wasn't in the city when Quentyn decided to steal one of the dragons, then it's unlikely he will blame her. The people of Dorne will listen to Doran.

I've heard/read that all of Dorne improves with rereading. You might want to give it a try.

He clearly says that he's going hoping for her hand based on the marriage pact and hopes that since Viserys has died he hopes that he and Dany can be substituted for Viserys and Arianne. I know he didn't have a reason to know she would be engaged hence why I didn't include that in part of the reason why the plan was stupid, just as why Dany didn't agree. A quote from the Dragontamer "And when I do, she will look at me the way she looks at her sellsword. Once I have proven myself to her." And he also says something along the lines of she showed me the dragons because she wanted him to prove himself. But no he wasn't trying to impress her at all. However, there is also undertones of not wanting to be a failure as you said.

Maybe saying nicer than he deserved was a bit harsh. I was more getting at had she laughed at him I wouldn't have blamed her. But as you said she'stoo nice and empathetic to do that especially in front of a room full of people. And yeah the plan was stupid. This woman who is queen in her own right who has conquered three cities and gained her own armies and has dragons is going to marry you because you have a piece of paper that does not mention her is not a good plan no matter how you try to spin it especially when you don't bring anything with you to help her (at least Aegon was bringing the GC and Victarion/Euron is bringing a fleet). 

And no I don't believe in love at first sight. I believe that people can think they are in love at first sight but it's more likely lust. Either way I don't think it applies here. Drinkwater talks about how he crossed the world to offer his love and fealty, thus talking about what Quentyn was doing before he ever even laid eyes on her. Quentyn crossed the world not because he loved but because he or maybe more accurately his father wanted the alliance.

I can see Doran not blaming Dany assuming he gets the real story. I'm more concerned about the rest of Dorne especially since Arianne is already feeling some type of way about Dany. Look at how the rest of Dorne is acting after Oberyn's death. They're not exactly listening to him. All of them including his own family think him weak. IIRC they don't really settle down until Arianne goes along with her father's plan.

And I've reread all the books several times. I think I'm good.

1 hour ago, LindsayLohan said:

Nymeria Sand is one HPOA. 

Also, paragraphs, bro.

Thing is after I finished writing, I thought to myself I should break this up but was too lazy to do it. But since you've called me out I'll fix. Lol

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

The Sand Snakes are one-dimensional but at least they're somewhat colorful. Arianne is super bland, IMO. She does have some promise in regards to character development but she's mostly so boring and unremarkable. Like, I'm not even being sexist here or anything, but I struggle to come up with a defining character trait for Arianne other than being highly sexual. She's really not that interesting and lacks the charisma and edge Oberyn had. This is probably an unpopular opinion but I like Tyene more, she left more of an impression in her short appearances so far.

Doran and Quentyn are a couple of losers. 

[Maxxine]

Just now, Lyin' Ned said:

The Sand Snakes are one-dimensional but at least they're somewhat colorful. Arianne is super bland, IMO. She does have some promise in regards to character development but she's mostly so boring and unremarkable. Like, I'm not even being sexist here or anything, but I struggle to come up with a defining character trait for Arianne other than being highly sexual. She's really not that interesting and lacks the charisma and edge Oberyn had. This is probably an unpopular opinion but I like Tyene more, she left more of an impression in her short appearances so far.

Doran and Quentyn are a couple of losers. 

I agree they are colorful. I first read I loved them for it, but then on rereads their unreasonableness overshadowed their entertainment value to me. In regards to Arianne, I always liked her because I usually like female characters who are not afraid to embrace their sexuality, but I think she grows into more than that by the end of Dance and into the Winds spoiler chapters. By no means is she as great a character as Oberyn but I think she may be turning into being able to be a player. That's part of the reason I didn't include her in the annoying Dornish. She has the bad plan from the beginning, but she seems to have learned from it and grown up. 

[LindsayLohan]

11 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

The Sand Snakes are one-dimensional but at least they're somewhat colorful. Arianne is super bland, IMO. She does have some promise in regards to character development but she's mostly so boring and unremarkable. Like, I'm not even being sexist here or anything, but I struggle to come up with a defining character trait for Arianne other than being highly sexual. She's really not that interesting and lacks the charisma and edge Oberyn had. This is probably an unpopular opinion but I like Tyene more, she left more of an impression in her short appearances so far.

Doran and Quentyn are a couple of losers. 

Arianne is every chick from Boston.  They grow up in NYC's shadow, so they all have a chip on their shoulder about their hometown.  Additionally, every chick in Boston thinks she's smarter than she really is, and thinks she's hotter than she really is.

All her plans blow up, she can only get a 2nd-tier Kingsguard (shot down by ALL MAN Balon Swann), has to have her dad help her reboot her failed career. 

She'll be okay.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

16 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

He clearly says that he's going hoping for her hand based on the marriage pact and hopes that since Viserys has died he hopes that he and Dany can be substituted for Viserys and Arianne. I know he didn't have a reason to know she would be engaged hence why I didn't include that in part of the reason why the plan was stupid, just as why Dany didn't agree. A quote from the Dragontamer "And when I do, she will look at me the way she looks at her sellsword. Once I have proven myself to her." And he also says something along the lines of she showed me the dragons because she wanted him to prove himself. But no he wasn't trying to impress her at all. However, there is also undertones of not wanting to be a failure as you said.

Maybe saying nicer than he deserved was a bit harsh. I was more getting at had she laughed at him I wouldn't have blamed her. But as you said she'stoo nice and empathetic to do that especially in front of a room full of people. And yeah the plan was stupid. This woman who is queen in her own right who has conquered three cities and gained her own armies and has dragons is going to marry you because you have a piece of paper that does not mention her is not a good plan no matter how you try to spin it especially when you don't bring anything with you to help her (at least Aegon was bringing the GC and Victarion/Euron is bringing a fleet). 

And no I don't believe in love at first sight. I believe that people can think they are in love at first sight but it's more likely lust. Either way I don't think it applies here. Drinkwater talks about how he crossed the world to offer his love and fealty, thus talking about what Quentyn was doing before he ever even laid eyes on her. Quentyn crossed the world not because he loved but because he or maybe more accurately his father wanted the alliance.

I can see Doran not blaming Dany assuming he gets the real story. I'm more concerned about the rest of Dorne. Look at how the rest of Dorne is acting after Oberyn's death. They're not exactly listening to him. All of them including his own family think him weak. IIRC they don't really settle down until Arianne goes along with her father's plan.

And I've reread all the books several times. I think I'm good.

Thing is after I finished writing, I thought to myself I should break this up but was too lazy to do it. But since you've called me out I'll fix. Lol

The only reason for Quentyn to have any qualms about the possibility of Dany accepting him would be if he knew she was promised to someone else. Hoping she'd marry him is not stupid. She says herself if he'd showed up months ago she might have taken him. 

Wanting Dany to look at him the way she looks at Daario is secondary to not going home empty-handed. All young men dream of glory and being adored by beautiful women. That doesn't make it the primary motivation for dragon theft. 

I know firsthand that love at first sight does exist, and no it's not just lust. 

There's a difference between crossing the world to offer your love and actually being in love. With a marriage proposal he was offering the possibility of love. You have to admit Quent is not the Lothario type, so he'd probably be a devoted and faithful husband. But I do think Drinkwater is romanticizing the situation because of his grief.

Doran knows how to handle the rest of Dorne. He locked up the Sand Snakes to keep them from whipping up a frenzy. The people themselves are not rising in rebellion against their prince for not doing anything. If Doran hadn't kept his plans from everyone they'd have a higher opinion of him. That one is at least partly on him.

Okay, a reread won't help. Dorne is clearly not for you.

14 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

The Sand Snakes are one-dimensional but at least they're somewhat colorful. Arianne is super bland, IMO. She does have some promise in regards to character development but she's mostly so boring and unremarkable. Like, I'm not even being sexist here or anything, but I struggle to come up with a defining character trait for Arianne other than being highly sexual. She's really not that interesting and lacks the charisma and edge Oberyn had. This is probably an unpopular opinion but I like Tyene more, she left more of an impression in her short appearances so far.

Doran and Quentyn are a couple of losers. 

Your definition of loser apparently is a man who waits patiently until all the pieces are in place instead of launching a war and getting all his people killed, and a poor kid who never hurt anyone but does one thing wrong and ends up dead for it.

I agree with you about Tyene. We haven't gotten enough info on the Sand Snakes in general, but from what we do know she seems the most interesting thus far.

[Ser Snowflake]

12 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

Arianne is every chick from Boston.  They grow up in NYC's shadow, so they all have a chip on their shoulder about their hometown.  Additionally, every chick in Boston thinks she's smarter than she really is, and thinks she's hotter than she really is.

All her plans blow up, she can only get a 2nd-tier Kingsguard (shot down by ALL MAN Balon Swann), has to have her dad help her reboot her failed career. 

She'll be okay.

Post. Of. The. Thread.

This made me laugh. For some reason, I can't help but to root for Arianne though. 

Maybe Trystane is the smart one..............wait a minute.....didn't he repeatedly lose at cyvasse to Myrcella?

[LindsayLohan]

13 minutes ago, The Pimp that was Promised said:

Post. Of. The. Thread.

This made me laugh. For some reason, I can't help but to root for Arianne though. 

Maybe Trystane is the smart one..............wait a minute.....didn't he repeatedly lose at cyvasse to Myrcella?

Trystane is Dorne's Rickon (or Sansa, depending on your Stark hate). 

I'm just glad for Nymeria, Sarrella, and Elia.  Elia's going to start some poo when she meets Aegon.  On the plus side, Rolly Duckfield will be on site, so at least one shit-tier Kingsguard will be there to make Arianne feel good about herself.

[Maxxine]

3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The only reason for Quentyn to have any qualms about the possibility of Dany accepting him would be if he knew she was promised to someone else. Hoping she'd marry him is not stupid. She says herself if he'd showed up months ago she might have taken him. 

Wanting Dany to look at him the way she looks at Daario is secondary to not going home empty-handed. All young men dream of glory and being adored by beautiful women. That doesn't make it the primary motivation for dragon theft. 

I know firsthand that love at first sight does exist, and no it's not just lust. 

There's a difference between crossing the world to offer your love and actually being in love. With a marriage proposal he was offering the possibility of love. You have to admit Quent is not the Lothario type. But I think Drinkwater is romanticizing the situation because of his grief.

Doran knows how to handle the rest of Dorne. He locked up the Sand Snakes to keep them from whipping up a frenzy. The people themselves are not rising in rebellion against their prince for not doing anything. If Doran hadn't kept his plans from everyone they'd have a higher opinion of him. That one is at least partly on him.

Okay, a reread won't help. Dorne is clearly not for you.

Your definition of loser apparently is a man who waits patiently until all the pieces are in place instead of launching a war and getting all his people killed, and a poor kid who never hurt anyone but does one thing wrong and ends up dead for it.

I agree with you about Tyene. We haven't gotten enough info on the Sand Snakes in general, but from what we do know she seems the most interesting thus far.

It is stupid to just think some woman especially one who is making decisions for herself is going to marry you just because you show up and ask, which is basically what he's doing. He doesn't bring any swords or anything. He only brings himself when he knows or at least finds out before it's too late she's essentially trapped in Meereen.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about that. He mentions both motivations but to me he comes off as kinda of a male-Sansa who thinks if I do this she's going to fall into my arms. But regardless of motivation, a plan to steal dragons can't really be considered smart. There's a reason we don't have a history or songs about dragon thieves.

I would give him that benefit of the doubt if we didn't already know that Drink is not one for grief. It's possible that Quentyn's death just hit him harder or he's playing some other game but I'm not convinced at this point.

And that's my thing about not having a lot of faith in Doran. I understand why he didn't go blabbing his plans to everyone. But the people of Dorne already have a negative opinion of him. It's not going to get better when his son dies half a world away under mysterious circumstances and doesn't oppose the person who they probably think is responsible even though she isn't. I also think it helps Arianne already has preconceived notions about Dany. I actually think, unless he turns out to be alive, this may be the whole point of Quentyn. Give Dorne a reason to oppose Dany and release the dragons.

Here's the thing I don't dislike the Dornish storyline overall. It's definitely not the crap Dorne storyline we get in the show. It was necessary to get the Dornish POV. It's just the Dornish characters have annoying personalities. And should not have been so sarcastic about it. There are always new things you can catch on rereads no matter how many times you've read it. I'm just not convinced my interpretation of some of the Dornish acts are going to change assuming nothing happens in Winds and Dream that alters the context.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 minute ago, Maxxine said:

It is stupid to just think some woman especially one who is making decisions for herself is going to marry you just because you show up and ask, which is basically what he's doing. He doesn't bring any swords or anything. He only brings himself when he knows or at least finds out before it's too late she's essentially trapped in Meereen.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about that. He mentions both motivations but to me he comes off as kinda of a male-Sansa who thinks if I do this she's going to fall into my arms. But regardless of motivation, a plan to steal dragons can't really be considered smart. There's a reason we don't have a history or songs about dragon thieves.

I would give him that benefit of the doubt if we didn't already know that Drink is not one for grief. It's possible that Quentyn's death just hit him harder or he's playing some other game but I'm not convinced at this point.

And that's my thing about not having a lot of faith in Doran. I understand why he didn't go blabbing his plans to everyone. But the people of Dorne already have a negative opinion of him. It's not going to get better when his son dies half a world away under mysterious circumstances and doesn't oppose the person who they probably think is responsible even though she isn't. I also think it helps Arianne already has preconceived notions about Dany. I actually think, unless he turns out to be alive, this may be the whole point of Quentyn. Give Dorne a reason to oppose Dany and release the dragons.

Here's the thing I don't dislike the Dornish storyline overall. It's definitely not the crap Dorne storyline we get in the show. It was necessary to get the Dornish POV. It's just the Dornish characters have annoying personalities. And should not have been so sarcastic about it. There are always new things you can catch on rereads no matter how many times you've read it. I'm just not convinced my interpretation of some of the Dornish acts are going to change assuming nothing happens in Winds and Dream that alters the context.

It's not stupid to think that in a medieval setting. Even the Targ women with dragons deferred to their husbands for the most part. And it's actually not stupid to think that she might agree to the marriage based on the fact that her brother was supposed to marry Arianne. It's no different from Ned ending up marrying Catelyn when his brother died. 

Of course he only brought himself. It was supposed to be a secret. An army going along would have attracted attention.

Okay.

There's no such thing. Grief hits everyone except sociopaths and psychopaths. It's just that people all express it differently.

Do they? Or is it that the Sand Snakes have a negative opinion. If the people were so against Doran, they would have removed him from power. 

Would the people learn what happened before Doran himself does? Cause if he gets the info first he can spin it any way he wants. The masses are largely uneducated and will likely believe what their Prince tells them, particularly if the Sand Snakes back him up.

You may be right about that. I think it would be a shame though. I'd like Doran to see a dragon before he dies...preferably one not burning his palace or eating him for lunch.

Amen to that.

[Maxxine]

7 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It's not stupid to think that in a medieval setting. Even the Targ women with dragons deferred to their husbands for the most part. And it's actually not stupid to think that she might agree to the marriage based on the fact that her brother was supposed to marry Arianne. It's no different from Ned ending up marrying Catelyn when his brother died. 

Of course he only brought himself. It was supposed to be a secret. An army going along would have attracted attention.

Okay.

There's no such thing. Grief hits everyone except sociopaths and psychopaths. It's just that people all express it differently.

Do they? Or is it that the Sand Snakes have a negative opinion. If the people were so against Doran, they would have removed him from power. 

Would the people learn what happened before Doran himself does? Cause if he gets the info first he can spin it any way he wants. The masses are largely uneducated and will likely believe what their Prince tells them, particularly if the Sand Snakes back him up.

You may be right about that. I think it would be a shame though. I'd like Doran to see a dragon before he dies...preferably one not burning his palace or eating him for lunch.

Amen to that.

But it's a completely different situation. Targs deferred to their husbands, sure, but Dany is not married and there is no one for her to defer to. And there was not really a Targ woman who had a choice in who she married maybe with the exception of Rhaenyra when she married Daemon. Cat didn't have a choice because her father chose for her. Had it been completely up to her would she have married Ned? Idk. It's stupid because of the context. Dany is making decisions completely for herself. She doesn't have to answer to any man. Why would you think you could just show up with nothing to offer and she would marry you. Just because she needed/wanted a husband that bad she would just take the first guy who got to her? It doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying he should've brought an army. I'm saying when he found out about her circumstances, he should have went back to the drawing board because that's when it should have become clear showing up with the 2 other people wasn't the best plan.

Maybe a better way of saying it is he doesn't react to grief in that way. Quentyn first or second POV makes of discussing that Drink doesn't react "normally" to deaths of his friends (not that there is a normal way, everyone reacts differently) so chalking his reaction up to grief doesn't work considering prior characterization. 

That's the thing will the Sand Snakes back him up? I'm not convinced their completely placated at the end of Dance and adding Quentyn's death might just be the thing to rile them up again. And do you really think the small folk have the power to remove him from power? 

It would be a shame and I'll completely admit that's part of the reason I find him so annoying. It's why I hold on to hope he may still somehow be alive. Otherwise, this random guy was thrown in just so he could die trying to do something stupid. If that's all I feel like the two purposes could have been accomplished in other ways. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Maxxine said:

But it's a completely different situation. Targs deferred to their husbands, sure, but Dany is not married and there is no one for her to defer to. And there was not really a Targ woman who had a choice in who she married maybe with the exception of Rhaenyra when she married Daemon. Cat didn't have a choice because her father chose for her. Had it been completely up to her would she have married Ned? Idk. It's stupid because of the context. Dany is making decisions completely for herself. She doesn't have to answer to any man. Why would you think you could just show up with nothing to offer and she would marry you. Just because she needed/wanted a husband that bad she would just take the first guy who got to her? It doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying he should've brought an army. I'm saying when he found out about her circumstances, he should have went back to the drawing board because that's when it should have become clear showing up with the 2 other people wasn't the best plan.

Maybe a better way of saying it is he doesn't react to grief in that way. Quentyn first or second POV makes of discussing that Drink doesn't react "normally" to deaths of his friends (not that there is a normal way, everyone reacts differently) so chalking his reaction up to grief doesn't work considering prior characterization. 

That's the thing will the Sand Snakes back him up? I'm not convinced their completely placated at the end of Dance and adding Quentyn's death might just be the thing to rile them up again. And do you really think the small folk have the power to remove him from power? 

It would be a shame and I'll completely admit that's part of the reason I find him so annoying. It's why I hold on to hope he may still somehow be alive. Otherwise, this random guy was thrown in just so he could die trying to do something stupid. If that's all I feel like the two purposes could have been accomplished in other ways. 

I was talking about from Ned's perspective. He didn't have to marry his dead brother's fiance, but it was considered the proper thing to do. Dany would probably have seen marrying Quentyn (if she'd had the option) as the right thing to do given that his sister would now never be queen. 

No, Dany doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want to, but that's only because she has dragons. Without them she'd be as powerless as any other woman. She lucked out there. Quent isn't showing up with nothing. He's offering her a family, and the support of all of Dorne. Granted in her situation that ends up not being of much present use.

You're looking at it from a modern perspective. It's not about taking the first guy who offers. It's about old pacts, and blood ties, and things we in the 21st century mostly don't have to consider.

That's true but it requires more of Quentyn than he's able to give. He's not the smartest guy, he doesn't have a gift for strategy, he has no flair for heroics. He's just a nice kid. 

Good question. I think they will now that they've agreed to play it his way. I'm not convinced that they're completely placated either, but they've started seeing things from another perspective and said they'll go along with Uncle Doran's way. 

I didn't say smallfolk. The smallfolk are busy working in fields, producing goods, and otherwise making sure they don't starve and the nobles can live in luxury, as peasants and poor people have done for ages. It's the nobles and the merchant class who would remove Doran if they had a problem with him, and yes I do believe they have the power to do so, but I don't think they see him the same way Oberyn's daughters do. 

Actually I have a theory you might be interested in. Well, it's too small to be a theory but still. You remember what happened in the pit before Dany climbed up on Drogon? He hissed and spit fire at her. And if Quentyn hadn't been focused on Viserion he might have noticed that Rhaegal did that to him. I think that's how dragons claim their riders. Hiss and spit. If Quent had been paying attention to Rhaegal, he would have at least thought to duck. Alternately Rhaegal could just have been jealous because Viserion was getting all the attention. Either way if Quentyn hadn't gone for what he thought was the easy way--or the easy dragon--he wouldn't have gotten burned. It's a moral unto itself. No shortcuts, kids, even if you do have dragonblood. 

[theblackdragonI]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Your definition of loser apparently is a man who waits patiently until all the pieces are in place instead of launching a war and getting all his people killed, and a poor kid who never hurt anyone but does one thing wrong and ends up dead for it.

I agree with you about Tyene. We haven't gotten enough info on the Sand Snakes in general, but from what we do know she seems the most interesting thus far.

In waiting until all the pieces are in the right place though Doran squanders opportunities. I'm sure he's not done and he isn't a loser, but he is way too cautious. 

Tyene is a badass.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 minute ago, theblackdragonI said:

In waiting until all the pieces are in the right place though Doran squanders opportunities. I'm sure he's not done and he isn't a loser, but he is way too cautious. 

Tyene is a badass.

What opportunities did he have that he squandered? I don't remember any.

He seems to be too cautious, just as Oberyn seems to be too reckless, but in reality they worked together. He wanted people to think he was weak, and overly cautious; it was part of the plan. And I'm hoping we find out why that is, and more of the plan in TWoW. Doran sitting there saying "Fire and blood" isn't enough information.

Yeah. I'm looking forward to her playing the High Sparrow and others. 

[theblackdragonI]

8 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

What opportunities did he have that he squandered? I don't remember any.

He seems to be too cautious, just as Oberyn seems to be too reckless, but in reality they worked together. He wanted people to think he was weak, and overly cautious; it was part of the plan. And I'm hoping we find out why that is, and more of the plan in TWoW. Doran sitting there saying "Fire and blood" isn't enough information.

 

Well Daenerys and Viserys didn't even know about the pact. 

He could have joined Renly/Stannis/Robb and turned the tide possibly, not sure but its still an opportunity to get back at the Lannisters. he's constantly waiting. If he didn't know about Aegon, and didn't move to Dany for 15-16 years it seems like he was wasting time.

[Maxxine]

18 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I was talking about from Ned's perspective. He didn't have to marry his dead brother's fiance, but it was considered the proper thing to do. Dany would probably have seen marrying Quentyn (if she'd had the option) as the right thing to do given that his sister would now never be queen. 

No, Dany doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want to, but that's only because she has dragons. Without them she'd be as powerless as any other woman. She lucked out there. Quent isn't showing up with nothing. He's offering her a family, and the support of all of Dorne. Granted in her situation that ends up not being of much present use.

You're looking at it from a modern perspective. It's not about taking the first guy who offers. It's about old pacts, and blood ties, and things we in the 21st century mostly don't have to consider.

That's true but it requires more of Quentyn than he's able to give. He's not the smartest guy, he doesn't have a gift for strategy, he has no flair for heroics. He's just a nice kid. 

Good question. I think they will now that they've agreed to play it his way. I'm not convinced that they're completely placated either, but they've started seeing things from another perspective and said they'll go along with Uncle Doran's way. 

I didn't say smallfolk. The smallfolk are busy working in fields, producing goods, and otherwise making sure they don't starve and the nobles can live in luxury, as peasants and poor people have done for ages. It's the nobles and the merchant class who would remove Doran if they had a problem with him, and yes I do believe they have the power to do so, but I don't think they see him the same way Oberyn's daughters do. 

Actually I have a theory you might be interested in. Well, it's too small to be a theory but still. You remember what happened in the pit before Dany climbed up on Drogon? He hissed and spit fire at her. And if Quentyn hadn't been focused on Viserion he might have noticed that Rhaegal did that to him. I think that's how dragons claim their riders. Hiss and spit. If Quent had been paying attention to Rhaegal, he would have at least thought to duck. Alternately Rhaegal could just have been jealous because Viserion was getting all the attention. Either way if Quentyn hadn't gone for what he thought was the easy way--or the easy dragon--he wouldn't have gotten burned. It's a moral unto itself. No shortcuts, kids, even if you do have dragonblood. 

I don't have a problem with the initial thought of Quentyn marrying Dany since Viserys is dead. It's not a bad initial thought. However, it's the full context that is the issue and Quentyn is aware of the full context when he still has the time to make a better plan. It's not like he only found out once he got to Meereen. If that were the case I wouldn't hold it against him as much.

You're right. Her power does derive from her dragons. She wouldn't have the army or Meereen without them. That doesn't change anything though. She still has her own power and doesn't need a man just for the sake of having a man. And Quentyn should be fully aware of this fact.

He's not absolved from a bad decision just because he's a nice kid. Just like Ned isn't absolved from the idiocy of telling Cersei just because he's a nice guy. Also you can't say he doesn't have a flare for heroics when it was his idea to steal the dragons.

I like that theory especially since I don't think Drogon was trying to kill Dany in the fighting pit. The only issue I have with it is if it's true and Quentyn is alive then he's a dragonrider. And I'm not a fan of him being a dragon rider though I wouldn't mind him being alive. Lol. But  definitely viable theory considering we only know a few things about how dragonriding works and the only real evidence we have about it is Dany's interactions with Drogon

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

I assume you don't class Oberyn as annoying because he was one of the most entertaining short term characters.

Some of the Sand snakes are very annoying but I find Doran very interesting. Quentin was a bit of let down if he has died.