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What awaits in Asshai ?


XIIIsnow

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DISCLAIMER: It's completely possible that this topic is already somewhere on the forum, but I couldn't find it. If so, please direct me to it. If not  - join the party :)

So, it is very interesting to me that we have so few information about Asshai and it's all very blury and sinister. In the best tradition of ancient texts (Roman and Greek), Martin depicts the known world in the same manner  - people that are on the edges of the known world are always strange, completely different than "us", practicing strange beliefs and customs. It is not rare that those populations are depicted as cannibals, incestuous, or even half mythical. So, Asshai rests in the Shadows and it's often marked as a sinister place with no natural light, polluted waters and finally strange people - magges, shadowbinders, skinchangers, etc. There is a few notes that makes me think that Asshai is going to be very relevant to the further story. Here it is, with no clear interpretation if mine, I am also confused about it, so I ask for your help with it:

1. Danny's dragons are from Asshai.

What are they?" she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder."Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. (GoT, D II)

2. Ancient people of Asshai learn Valyrians how to tame dragons.

These Asshai'i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals. (WoIaF)

3. Some of our friends from the book were learning forbidden knowledge in Asshai.

When I was younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered long to study the healing ways of distant peoples. (GoT, D VII)

"Marwyn, he named himself," the woman replied in the Common Tongue. "From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech. A maester in Asshai," Ser Jorah mused. "Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck? A chain so tight it was like to choke him, Iron Lord, with links of many metals. (GoT, D VII)
Melisandre of Asshai, sorceress, shadowbinder, and priestess to R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Melisandre, whose madness must not be allowed to spread beyond Dragonstone (ACOK, Prologue)
Only one [Euron Greyjoy] has sailed to Asshai by the Shadow, and seen wonders and terrors beyond imagining (FfC, Drowned God)
4. Azor Ahai prophecy is written in Asshai.
In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him. (ACOK, Davos I)
5. Both Jorah and Quaith want Danny going to Asshai.
To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."
Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. Will the Asshai'i give me an army?" she demanded. "Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth? Truth," said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd. (ACOK, Daenerys III)
6. Sansa's gems (for Joffrey's wedding) were from Asshai.
Black amethysts from Asshai. The rarest kind, a deep true purple by daylight. It's very lovely," Sansa said, thinking, It is a ship I need, not a net for my hair. (ACOK, Sansa VIII)
7. Mance has silky patch from Asshai.
And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me. (aSoS, Jon I).
So, we can see that name of Asshai is mention in just a few context:
1. To mark exotic objects (dragon eggs, silk, amethysts...)
2. To mark forbidden or strange knowledge (Melisandre, Marwyn, Mirri Maz Dur) or as a place to find the "truth" (Quaith)
3. To mark the origin of mythic creatures and prophecies, which are actually no more a myth - Dragons and Azor Ahai
At the same time, we learn throughout the books that people are trading or warring with Asshai (Illyrio, Dothraki,caravans and galleys from Asshai, Euron,..)
So, Asshai is grievous place, home of everything strange and sick, but it is also a place of learning (at least some sort of knowledge, not "Citadel" one) and trading. 
My question is why Asshai is so strangely blurred in the books? Does Danny really needs to go there to find the truth? What is that truth? Is it something about dragonsteel, so much needed for fighting Others? Or not at all? What do you think of it? 
 
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@XIIIsnow Awesome work my friend, thanks for a fun topic.

20 minutes ago, XIIIsnow said:

 

7. Mance has silky patch from Asshai.
And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me. (aSoS, Jon I).
 

Really digging this find,  I wonder how the wilding womans grandmother was able to recognise a ship/silk from Asshai?

Due to the remoteness of The Frozen Shore, as well as the Free Folks tendencies towards  isolation and illiteracy, it wouldn't seem likely for a Wildling to recognise a Hightower ship, let alone one that hails from dread Asshai. Perhaps this hints at some knowledge about "Higher mysteries" from across Planetos existing amonst some free folk?

I also wonder about the date of these events, @XIIIsnow how long might the Asshai cog have lay washed up on The Frozen Shore before the wilding womans grandmother find the silk? Mance pressumeably recieved the silk sometime around his twenties so I do wonder. The fact the cog was on the east coast of Westeros is interesting too. Could this be a hint towards Asshai lying directly across the Sunset Sea?

 I always thought there were striking similiarities between The Archmaesters tradition of wearing masks made of various materials, The Shadowbinder tradition of red laquered masks, and the weirwood mask worn by Morna-White Mask. TWOIAF also describes the inhabitants of Asshai as always wearing masks or veils, signifying large scale dabbling in the dark arts.

In regards to the OP, if Dany does journey Asshai during TWOW or AWDOS, I imagine she would consider "acquiring" a few dragon eggs. She is under the belief that Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegals eggs came from The Shadow Lands, and has had Quiathe and Jorah advising her to travel there, so she may already have an emotional connection to the place. We have several hints that dragons may still exist in Asshai, such as Brans vision in ACOK. While we can't be certain if this vision was accurate, it does perhaps point at Asshai being full of dragons just waiting to be tamed. If Dany were to get her hands on Dragonbinder, and then pass beneath The Shadow, imagine the possibilities.

Xaro does tell Dany in ADWD that her assault on the slave trade was felt from Westeros to Asshai, so she could be met with open hostility by the locals. Its interesting that no envoys from Asshai have traveled to meet The Breaker of Chains as of yet, considering her three dragons and Valyrian blood, aswell as the impact her regime may have had on Asshai economics. The masked Shadowbinders spotted by Quentin in the Merchants house of slave heavy Volantis may not be a good sign for Daenerys, then again, Asshai is such an unknown quantity at this point that it wouldn't be surprising if Dany already had hordes of followers from The Shadow.

 

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3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

We have several hints that dragons may still exist in Asshai, such as Brans vision in ACOK. While we can't be certain if this vision was accurate, it does perhaps point at Asshai being full of dragons just waiting to be tamed. If Dany were to get her hands on Dragonbinder, and then pass beneath The Shadow, imagine the possibilities.

 

 

Those subscribing to the notion that Dragonbinder and the Horn of Joramun are the same thing might conclude that Samwell ends up traveling to Asshai with the horn. He is under the tutelage one of the few people in Westeros who've spent time there. And as the Others are described as shadows, of which he slew one, it would make sense that Sam goes and confronts the Shadow by Asshai.

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6 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Those subscribing to the notion that Dragonbinder and the Horn of Joramun are the same thing might conclude that Samwell ends up traveling to Asshai with the horn. He is under the tutelage one of the few people in Westeros who've spent time there. And as the Others are described as shadows, of which he slew one, it would make sense that Sam goes and confronts the Shadow by Asshai.

It would certainly be one of the more extreme ways for Sam to overcome his cowardly nature!

If the Citadel should be destroyed/overrun in Winds, Asshai may end up being the one of the last places Tarly could feasibly attain useful information on The Others. I'm not sure if the time constraints of two books will allow this, but it would be worth it just to see craven Samwell trying to navigate his way through the black city.

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Sam the "coward" indeed. I think the timing would be no real issue - he's hanging with Marwyn in Oldtown, so he's just one impulsive sea adventure from Asshai. I could see Marwyn just deciding that it's time to sail west and taking Sam with, which would be consistent with theme of wandering Samwell doing heroic things. Sam is on a bit of Odyssean journey, so it wouldn't surprise me at all.

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4 minutes ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

Bran saw them, there be dragons there man.....or so I hope

That's one of the things that keeps coming back to me. But I wonder whether it's literal dragons or Targaryens. Imagine if all the Targs whose later lives are undocumented moved to Asshai and spend all their time trashing their relatives in Westeros. :D

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Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's one of the things that keeps coming back to me. But I wonder whether it's literal dragons or Targaryens. Imagine if all the Targs whose later lives are undocumented moved to Asshai and spend all their time trashing their relatives in Westeros. :D

That is one of the reasons I've been hoping to see a POV in Asshai since early in book 1!!! When I finally got to Melisandre POV in ADWD I thought the moment finally came to know something about Asshai.....and how disappointed I was

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7 hours ago, XIIIsnow said:

:

1. Danny's dragons are from Asshai.

What are they?" she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder."Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. (GoT, D II)

 

So, Asshai is grievous place, home of everything strange and sick, but it is also a place of learning (at least some sort of knowledge, not "Citadel" one) and trading. 

My question is why Asshai is so strangely blurred in the books? Does Danny really needs to go there to find the truth? What is that truth? Is it something about dragonsteel, so much needed for fighting Others? Or not at all? What do you think of it? 
 

1. It is possible that Illyrio is telling the truth here, but frankly I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

The world has become strange and sick and the Shadow is probably one of the points of infection. I would be very skeptical of any truths that come to us from Asshai.

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9 minutes ago, hiemal said:

1. It is possible that Illyrio is telling the truth here, but frankly I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

The world has become strange and sick and the Shadow is probably one of the points of infection. I would be very skeptical of any truths that come to us from Asshai.

But...if the maesters really were poisoning the dragons their eggs would have been affected which means any Targ eggs left are probably non-viable. Dany's eggs would then have to be from somewhere else...like Asshai.

This also gives possible credence to the idea that Varys/Illyrio did have some hope that Dany would be able to hatch the dragons given her high percentage of Targaryen blood. Maybe part of the reason more than 100 years of Targ dragon-hatching attempts failed is because the blood-bond is matrilineal and the men were the ones trying to get the eggs to hatch. Most egg-laying species on earth are hatched by the mother.

ETA: perhaps a blood sacrifice of a woman is required. Are there any known female casualties from Summerhall?

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3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

But...if the maesters really were poisoning the dragons their eggs would have been affected which means any Targ eggs left are probably non-viable. Dany's eggs would then have to be from somewhere else...like Asshai.

 

That and Bran's vision are the only reasons I consider the possibility that he is telling the truth. Why did he give eggs to Dany and not to (f)Aegon- presumably his own son. It raises my suspicions on general principals.

3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

This also gives possible credence to the idea that Varys/Illyrio did have some hope that Dany would be able to hatch the dragons given her high percentage of Targaryen blood. Maybe part of the reason more than 100 years of Targ dragon-hatching attempts failed is because the blood-bond is matrilineal and the men were the ones trying to get the eggs to hatch. Most egg-laying species on earth are hatched by the mother.

Now that is an exciting possibility with some real explanatory power. If Illyrio guesses this it could even explain the above. /pondering

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9 minutes ago, hiemal said:

That and Bran's vision are the only reasons I consider the possibility that he is telling the truth.

Now that is an exciting possibility!

I've had this little cracked pot floating in my head for a while that the bond was with the women and that's the reason for the incest...if a daughter married into another house then the dragons of her birth house could be claimed by her children and thus by another dragonlord house. It's like mitochondrial DNA: dragon edition. The men have it, but can't pass it on so they need a female relative to be the mother of their children to ensure another generation of dragonriders control of their dragons in the family.

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Quote

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

I actually think Bran's vision of Asshai showed the birth of dragons. "Stirred beneath the sunrise" signifies a birth to me. Sunrise v. sunset, etc...  

Also, Bran then goes from Asshai to the wall, then further north:

Quote

North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

To me he is viewing the two "opposite poles" If you will. He goes the birth of fire (dragons) to the birth of ice (others).

This quote from the World Book supports the idea of dragons originating in Asshai as well:

Quote

These Asshai'i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I've had this little cracked pot floating in my head for a while that the bond was with the women and that's the reason for the incest...if a daughter married into another house then the dragons of her birth house could be claimed by her children and thus by another dragonlord house. It's like mitochondrial DNA: dragon edition. The men have it, but can't pass it on so they need a female relative to be the mother of their children to ensure another generation of dragonriders control of their dragons in the family.

I like it a lot. And if Illyrio has guessed this it would explain why he gave the eggs to Dany instead of (f)Aegon.

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30 minutes ago, hiemal said:

That and Bran's vision are the only reasons I consider the possibility that he is telling the truth. Why did he give eggs to Dany and not to (f)Aegon- presumably his own son. It raises my suspicions on general principals.

 

I believe it was to help sell her to Drogo. Drogo was proud and powerful and would have wanted more than some random paleskin girl dispossessed of anything her name might have meant in the past. The eggs added some dragonlord mystique, which probably made Drogo feel a bit like he was conquering the ancient kingdom of Valyria. Also Illyrio probably didn't think the eggs could be hatched, and so saw no harm in giving them away. Plus, giving them to Aegon probably would have scared the bejesus out of the Westerosi he intended to rule.

The more interesting question is just where Illyrio did get them and what he paid or traded for them. Considering how valuable they supposedly were, it is rather odd that he would give them to someone he expected to die among the Dothraki. I definitely don't get the impression that Illyrio is/was one to waste something of value.

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24 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I actually think Bran's vision of Asshai showed the birth of dragons. "Stirred beneath the sunrise" signifies a birth to me. Sunrise v. sunset, etc...  

Also, Bran then goes from Asshai to the wall, then further north:

To me he is viewing the two "opposite poles" If you will. He goes the birth of fire (dragons) to the birth of ice (others).

This quote from the World Book supports the idea of dragons originating in Asshai as well:

 

I'm convinced that all dragons fundamentally come from the Shadow in the sense that the bond that allows some people to be dragonriders was forged here in the same way that I believe that the bond that allows some people to be wargs was made on the Isle of Faces and some sort of bond was cemented in the Land of Always Winter.

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10 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I believe it was to help sell her to Drogo. Drogo was proud and powerful and would have wanted more than some random paleskin girl dispossessed of anything her name might have meant in the past. The eggs added some dragonlord mystique, which probably made Drogo feel a bit like he was conquering the ancient kingdom of Valyria. Also Illyrio probably didn't think the eggs could be hatched, and so saw no harm in giving them away. Plus, giving them to Aegon probably would have scared the bejesus out of the Westerosi he intended to rule.

The more interesting question is just where Illyrio did get them and what he paid or traded for them. Considering how valuable they supposedly were, it is rather odd that he would give them to someone he expected to die among the Dothraki.

Good point, but as you ask interestingly it seems likely that if they came from the Shadow Drogo would almost have an easier time getting dragon eggs that Illyrio since presumably they may well have passed through Vaes Dothrak's markets on their way to Pentos if our mystery merchant didn't hazard a sea voyage.

I just don't trust Illyrio and there are so many Targ byblows behind the scenes in Essos that I just can't rule out the possibility that the eggs are from Blackfyre or Brightflame eggs that were smuggled across the sea along with their House ambitions and plots.

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6 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

@XIIIsnow Awesome work my friend, thanks for a fun topic.

Really digging this find,  I wonder how the wilding womans grandmother was able to recognise a ship/silk from Asshai?

Due to the remoteness of The Frozen Shore, as well as the Free Folks tendencies towards  isolation and illiteracy, it wouldn't seem likely for a Wildling to recognise a Hightower ship, let alone one that hails from dread Asshai. Perhaps this hints at some knowledge about "Higher mysteries" from across Planetos existing amonst some free folk?

I also wonder about the date of these events, @XIIIsnow how long might the Asshai cog have lay washed up on The Frozen Shore before the wilding womans grandmother find the silk? Mance pressumeably recieved the silk sometime around his twenties so I do wonder. The fact the cog was on the east coast of Westeros is interesting too. Could this be a hint towards Asshai lying directly across the Sunset Sea?

 I always thought there were striking similiarities between The Archmaesters tradition of wearing masks made of various materials, The Shadowbinder tradition of red laquered masks, and the weirwood mask worn by Morna-White Mask. TWOIAF also describes the inhabitants of Asshai as always wearing masks or veils, signifying large scale dabbling in the dark arts.

In regards to the OP, if Dany does journey Asshai during TWOW or AWDOS, I imagine she would consider "acquiring" a few dragon eggs. She is under the belief that Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegals eggs came from The Shadow Lands, and has had Quiathe and Jorah advising her to travel there, so she may already have an emotional connection to the place. We have several hints that dragons may still exist in Asshai, such as Brans vision in ACOK. While we can't be certain if this vision was accurate, it does perhaps point at Asshai being full of dragons just waiting to be tamed. If Dany were to get her hands on Dragonbinder, and then pass beneath The Shadow, imagine the possibilities.

Xaro does tell Dany in ADWD that her assault on the slave trade was felt from Westeros to Asshai, so she could be met with open hostility by the locals. Its interesting that no envoys from Asshai have traveled to meet The Breaker of Chains as of yet, considering her three dragons and Valyrian blood, aswell as the impact her regime may have had on Asshai economics. The masked Shadowbinders spotted by Quentin in the Merchants house of slave heavy Volantis may not be a good sign for Daenerys, then again, Asshai is such an unknown quantity at this point that it wouldn't be surprising if Dany already had hordes of followers from The Shadow.

Tnx :) well, Quatih does advice her that she must go east in order to reach the west, so maybe there is shorter way across the narrow sea...

It is interesting that no one from Asshai doesn't give a spit for Danny and her Dragons, but Melisandre rush to Stanis when she thinks she is AA reborn. Maybe dragons are too lame for them, because they have those in Asshai already :)

 

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7 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Good point, but as you ask interestingly it seems likely that if they came from the Shadow Drogo would almost have an easier time getting dragon eggs that Illyrio since presumably they may well have passed through Vaes Dothrak's markets on their way to Pentos if our mystery merchant didn't hazard a sea voyage.

I just don't trust Illyrio and there are so many Targ byblows behind the scenes in Essos that I just can't rule out the possibility that the eggs are from Blackfyre or Brightflame eggs that were smuggled across the sea with their ambitions and plots.

I don't think Drogo was actively looking for dragon eggs or anything, they were just offered as part of the deal. 

What this really brings up in my mind is the possibility that Illyrio and Varys are hedging their bets with three Targaryens. They were setting Viserys up to inherit Drogo's army, but also trying to get an army of sellswords for Aegon. I think the usual explanation is that they planned a double invasion, with Aegon's army of Westerosi "saving" the kingdom from the Dothraki horde. But then why put all the effort and expense of dragon eggs into the army that's intended to be slaughtered by Aegon? This leads me to believe that the eggs came cheap, or that Illyrio assumed they were fake. Could they be the eggs supposedly placed at Winterfell?

Regardless of their immediate origin, it could be that the eggs were still originally from Asshai.

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