What awaits in Asshai ?

[XIIIsnow]

4 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Yes. Yes! and YES!

To the point that I have been trying to link more and more sights on Westeros with Essosi counterparts and even wondering if the two continents (three? Sothoryos and Yeen seem unimportant, but...) don't represent the same continent from alternate timelines or something equally crazy. The caves around Qohor and those in the Rainwood leap immediately to mind, but I'm drawing a blank on the others I'd been pondering. I'll get back to you.

As I recall, there are few more places of the same description (oily black stone) - Seastone chair, City of Yeen (Sothyros), even Hightower fortress...

[hiemal]

7 minutes ago, XIIIsnow said:

As I recall, there are few more places of the same description (oily black stone) - Seastone chair, City of Yeen (Sothyros), even Hightower fortress...

The stone on Battle Isle is fused (like the dragonflame-fused walls of Volantis but without the decadent flourishes of the Valyrians), not oily- likely the work the Great Empire of the Dawn instead of the Deep Ones (who I think are most likely behind the Oily Black Stone). Which would indicate that Moat Cailin was an outpost of the Deep Ones on Westeros from when Yeen was a thriving metropolis and before their ill-fated war with Children. What happened here between the Deep Ones and the CotF and was it mirrored by what took place on Battle Isle between the GEoDawnians and CotF?

[Leo of House Cartel]

24 minutes ago, XIIIsnow said:

...and what really bothers me is that people who visited Asshai didn't tell us anything valid about it  Euron is speaking about wonders and terrors, Mirri maz Dur said she had to pay the price for her knowledge, Melissandre didn't give us anything yet...

We can only hope this bunch of tormentors loosen their lips in Winds.

If Mel does indeed declare Jon to be Azor Ahai reborn, she would surely find it prudent to share some information on Asshai. I'm not sure if Mel would be aware of the ancient legends of The Bloodstone Emperor, but such information could prove useful in battle with The Great Other. 

I wonder how many anecdotes of home Mel shared with Stannis over the hearth fire. If she ever shared any information regarding Asshai with Stannis, we could end up hearing it in Asha or Theons POV.

Interesting that Euron makes no mention of "Passing through the gates of The Corpse City Stygai. If he were going to boast of his time in The Shadow, wouldn't he bring something like this up? Maybe he just assumed the ill-witted Ironborn wouldn't have known or cared. We might hear something regarding these ominous lands in an Aeron chapter.

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, XIIIsnow said:

we do

On its way from the Mountains of the Morn to the sea, the Ash runs howling through a narrow cleft in the mountains, between towering cliffs so steep and close that the river is perpetually in shadow, save for a few moments at midday when the sun is at its zenith. In the caves that pockmark the cliffs, demons and dragons and worse make their lairs. The farther from the city one goes, the more hideous and twisted these creatures become...until at last one stands before the doors of the Stygai, the corpse city at the Shadow's heart, where even the shadowbinders fear to tread. Or so the stories say. (woiaf)

ah, well it was a good guess, themes don't explain everything. I guess I should hurry up and get to the worldbook. This description reminds me a lot of Mordor and Minas Morgul. 

As far as a land connection between the continents, I'm uncertain but I think it's totally possible. It could explain some things. I personally think that the Dothraki end times myth of white Ghost Grass covering the planet is a cultural memory of a winter that covered the entire planet, which would mean that the Others were in Essos, as well. This makes all the more sense with the AA myths seeming to originate there.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, XIIIsnow said:

Nice one

Thanks. Seems like you're new around here, so hello! *waves*

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

Bearing the sword Truth is a good way to be a "slayer of lies"

Excellent observation!

4 hours ago, finger said:

@Lady Blizzardborn "Truth", dragons,...That's Aegon!

Mance's son was in danger, so he was taken away by some woman acquainted to him, a Targaryen maester, a student, like the maester's "squire", and a singer. A short and assorted company.

It seems a hint that some years before, Rhaegar's son (a Targaryen) was in danger and he was taken away by a maester (Marwin), probably a woman (Quaite, o is she Ashara?), maybe some others. Tom O'Sevens and Lem could be in, a bard and a squire. I'm assuming Lem is Richard Lonmouth, I don't remember if he had been knighted. It could work without this couple, anyhow.

Grrm reminds us Asshai frequently, as to highlight its meaning. There must be something important there.

 

Marwyn had nothing to do with Aegon's being saved so far as we know. Ashara may or may not have anything to do with it. I don't really see any reason for Tom O' Sevens to be involved, but if Lem really is Lonmouth I could definitely see him being in on it. However, I've frequently used Jon's baby switch to explain how Varys' baby switch is possible. I think the other players would be secondary at best. And since I like the idea of Varys being a Targ descendant (most likely from the Brightflame line) it makes for a nice symmetry if Jon is Rhaegar's son.

Ran used to say that Ashara was Quaithe but I've never been sure if he was being serious or was kidding. 

Agreed. Asshai is important.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

<snip

Interesting that Euron makes no mention of "Passing through the gates of The Corpse City Stygai. If he were going to boast of his time in The Shadow, wouldn't he bring something like this up? Maybe he just assumed the ill-witted Ironborn wouldn't have known or cared. We might hear something regarding these ominous lands in an Aeron chapter.

Euron doesn't strike me as the most honest guy. Maybe he has been to Asshai but given that it's a port city, he didn't have to leave his ship if he didn't want to (or was afraid...now I'm wondering how he'd react to Mel).

[XIIIsnow]

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Euron doesn't strike me as the most honest guy. Maybe he has been to Asshai but given that it's a port city, he didn't have to leave his ship if he didn't want to (or was afraid...now I'm wondering how he'd react to Mel).

Euron is braging around with wonders he saw, but I just cant believe it that he throw the dragon egg of the Silence  thats why I dont trust anything about him, except that he is one sick bastard  but, it seems like he got himself a VS armor and Dragonbinder, so his voyages are interesting  But at the same time, he wants us to believe that he doesnt think much of those objects  he throws the egg, he send the horn with Victarion... I am completely sure that he sent Victarion with only purpose to get him out of his way, I am not sure that he expect Victarion to get back any time soon Same as Asshai, I cant wait to read more about Valyrian ruins and the fate of all the people traveling there in the past...who knows, maybe he found what was left of Lannister's fleet, or even Brightroar  

P.S. I am actually not new, but I wasn't posting much  I red the books so many times in different languages (english is not my native, as you can see), but I was bit shy  I really enjoy reading all the predictions, theories and analysis, and I really hope that once ASOIAF is over (if ever), that someone is going to collect and publish all the theories from this forum. I am sure that some of the ideas are even better than Martin's  and that's only his fault because he let us dry for so many years...

[Leo of House Cartel]

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Euron doesn't strike me as the most honest guy. Maybe he has been to Asshai but given that it's a port city, he didn't have to leave his ship if he didn't want to (or was afraid...now I'm wondering how he'd react to Mel).

Thats a fair point m'lady, mind you, could it be that he was so afraid of what he saw in Asshai that he keeps it secret? It would be a blast if it turned out Crows Eye had merely sat in the harbours of all the exotic locations he claimes to have visited!

 I figure that Euron would take one look at the pale green phosphorescence of the River Ash and decide to go skinny dipping. I'm sure if he was chilling with Mel in Asshai he would invite her for swim too. In all seriousness I do imagine that diving into The River Ash would be highly intriguing to an Iron Born with such blasphemous values. What would a man who has an entire existence based on the ocean think of such waters?

11 hours ago, hiemal said:

The stone on Battle Isle is fused (like the dragonflame-fused walls of Volantis but without the decadent flourishes of the Valyrians), not oily- likely the work the Great Empire of the Dawn instead of the Deep Ones (who I think are most likely behind the Oily Black Stone). Which would indicate that Moat Cailin was an outpost of the Deep Ones on Westeros from when Yeen was a thriving metropolis and before their ill-fated war with Children. What happened here between the Deep Ones and the CotF and was it mirrored by what took place on Battle Isle between the GEoDawnians and CotF?

Well met mi amigo. What do you think is older, Yeen or Asshai/Stygai? 

[hiemal]

5 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Thats a fair point m'lady, mind you, could it be that he was so afraid of what he saw in Asshai that he keeps it secret? It would be a blast if it turned out Crows Eye had merely sat in the harbours of all the exotic locations he claimes to have visited!

 I figure that Euron would take one look at the pale green phosphorescence of the River Ash and decide to go skinny dipping. I'm sure if he was chilling with Mel in Asshai he would invite her for swim too. In all seriousness I do imagine that diving into The River Ash would be highly intriguing to an Iron Born with such blasphemous values. What would a man who has an entire existence based on the ocean think of such waters?

Well met mi amigo. What do you think is older, Yeen or Asshai/Stygai? 

I suspect that Yeen is the oldest and represents the first cycle of catastrophe (the disruption of the seasons) and Asshai the second (the Long Night) but that conclusion is pretty tentative.

[Leo of House Cartel]

7 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I suspect that Yeen is the oldest and represents the first cycle of catastrophe (the disruption of the seasons) and Asshai the second (the Long Night) but that conclusion is pretty tentative.

Thanks for that dude, I had similiar conclusions.

I always enjoyed the mystery surrounding Sothoryos, especially what lies to the south and in the centre. While it is probable that life in general on Planetos began in the oceans, could it be possible that Sothoryos was home to the first terrestrial life? And would it have been home to vast kingdoms of dark skinned humans, who's descendents sailed to The Summer Isles? We hear of Dothraki encountering the COTF like Ifequevron in Vaes Leisi, a ruin covered by carved trees in Northern Essos. This is similiar to the Summer Island stories of The Talking Trees in Tall Trees Town. Could the proto-Children of The Forest perhaps have originated in Sothoryos?

The Sothoryi Green Hell tales describing giant gorrillas, dinosaurs, wvyern bring to mind the descriptions of The Vale of Shadows, where dragons, demons and worse are common. Yeen parallells Asshai in that the local enviroment seems to have a negative effect on natural life (Chernobyl style fish in the Ash river, aswell as the forests surrounding Yeen not encroaching on the black  ruins).

With the oily Stone being used to build both Yeen and Asshai, I wonder if their was a significant relationship between the two. Perhaps some GEOTD invasion or a war between Deep Ones and Sothoryi Children of The Jungle?

It's a shame that most of the questons surrounding Yeen, The Green Hell and all the fun filled areas of the Zamoyos will most probably never be answered in the main books, I can only pray to a thousand gods that this is not the same for Asshai.

[Lord Vance II]

15 hours ago, cgrav said:

As far as a land connection between the continents, I'm uncertain but I think it's totally possible. It could explain some things.

I feel like I saw somewhere that GRRM shot down the idea that Essos loops around to the Land of Always Winter, but I could be wrong. Personally, I think there has to be some continent in the way, either one we dont know about or Ulthos curving around. The World book implies that it's common* knowledge that their world is round. Common among people who are learned at least. I think either the Ironborn or Stark expeditions found that land, but never returned. 

 

[hiemal]

32 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Thanks for that dude, I had similiar conclusions.

I always enjoyed the mystery surrounding Sothoryos, especially what lies to the south and in the centre. While it is probable that life in general on Planetos began in the oceans, could it be possible that Sothoryos was home to the first terrestrial life? And would it have been home to vast kingdoms of dark skinned humans, who's descendents sailed to The Summer Isles? We hear of Dothraki encountering the COTF like Ifequevron in Vaes Leisi, a ruin covered by carved trees in Northern Essos. This is similiar to the Summer Island stories of The Talking Trees in Tall Trees Town. Could the proto-Children of The Forest perhaps have originated in Sothoryos?

The Sothoryi Green Hell tales describing giant gorrillas, dinosaurs, wvyern bring to mind the descriptions of The Vale of Shadows, where dragons, demons and worse are common. Yeen parallells Asshai in that the local enviroment seems to have a negative effect on natural life (Chernobyl style fish in the Ash river, aswell as the forests surrounding Yeen not encroaching on the black  ruins).

With the oily Stone being used to build both Yeen and Asshai, I wonder if their was a significant relationship between the two. Perhaps some GEOTD invasion or a war between Deep Ones and Sothoryi Children of The Jungle?

It's a shame that most of the questons surrounding Yeen, The Green Hell and all the fun filled areas of the Zamoyos will most probably never be answered in the main books, I can only pray to a thousand gods that this is not the same for Asshai.

My very tentative chronology has the Deep Ones arising on Sothoryos, possibly creating the Children through the power of mutation that the Oily Black Stones seem to both contain and represent, and then expanding to the other continents before being overwhelmed by their own creations and driven into the sea. Whether humans are likewise experiments gone feral, are naturally arising, or even came from somewhere else  fully formed as colonists (willing or unwilling) I'm not at all sure.

[zandru]

22 hours ago, cgrav said:

Samwell ends up traveling to Asshai with the horn. He is under the tutelage one of the few people in Westeros who've spent time there.

and

21 hours ago, cgrav said:

he's hanging with Marwyn in Oldtown

Well yes, but Marwyn has just taken off towards Meereen, the last we heard. Sam "hung with" Marwyn for a matter of minutes. Now, Sam's with Fake Pate, who appears to be the faceless man assassin formerly known as Jochim H'gar (excuse my spelling). Things could get ugly - or Sam could be in a great position to learn (in addition to what he'll pick up in maester training.)

 

[XIIIsnow]

29 minutes ago, zandru said:

and

Well yes, but Marwyn has just taken off towards Meereen, the last we heard. Sam "hung with" Marwyn for a matter of minutes. Now, Sam's with Fake Pate, who appears to be the faceless man assassin formerly known as Jochim H'gar (excuse my spelling). Things could get ugly - or Sam could be in a great position to learn (in addition to what he'll pick up in maester training.)

 

Sure, I know that fake Pate is a topic of countless posts, but I have to say  - I am not sure at all, that FM is up to something sinister. He took the key opening all doors in the citadel, but we are not sure, what is that he is looking for. Is it a book, a weapon, person, or something fourth? On other hand, we are also not sure does H'gar is working for his own agenda, or he is assigned to it. 

So, I am not sure that Sem should be worrying about Pate at all. 

[XIIIsnow]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

My very tentative chronology has the Deep Ones arising on Sothoryos, possibly creating the Children through the power of mutation that the Oily Black Stones seem to both contain and represent, and then expanding to the other continents before being overwhelmed by their own creations and driven into the sea. Whether humans are likewise experiments gone feral, are naturally arising, or even came from somewhere else  fully formed as colonists (willing or unwilling) I'm not at all sure.

I have to say that I am writing this fully on the hunch right now, but I had a feeling that Yeen is much older than Asshai. MAybe because, we do have some scarce info on Asshai, but almost not at all about Yeen. But, it's a hunch, dont have any solid arguments.

[zandru]

17 minutes ago, XIIIsnow said:

So, I am not sure that Sem should be worrying about Pate at all.

I strongly suspect you're right here. Fake Pate appears to have been at the Citadel for awhile - what could have clued him to the possibility that Samwell Tarly (and family) would eventually be arriving from the Wall? Nothing that I can think of that makes sense. So Sam doesn't appear to be in the crosshairs, as it were. But it's likely that Sam (at least) will be sharing a significant amount of information about what's going on at and North of the Wall with his roomie. Less chance that "Pate" will break cover, however, and reveal anything about the wider world to Sam.

That was a great run-down on the references to, and implications of Assha'i, by the way! We need to always bear in mind the "unreliable narrator" effect. The World of Ice'n'Fire gives a maesters' s point of view - a fairly ancient one, it seems; Marwyn would have provided a much better and more current write-up, and he's near as ubiquitous in references as Assha'i is, interestingly. Not to mention Marwyn is in ill repute with the maester power structure, while being held in high esteem by some of the smarter maesters and others. Let's hope we see a lot more of Marwyn in the coming books.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

9 hours ago, XIIIsnow said:

Euron is braging around with wonders he saw, but I just cant believe it that he throw the dragon egg of the Silence  thats why I dont trust anything about him, except that he is one sick bastard  but, it seems like he got himself a VS armor and Dragonbinder, so his voyages are interesting  But at the same time, he wants us to believe that he doesnt think much of those objects  he throws the egg, he send the horn with Victarion... I am completely sure that he sent Victarion with only purpose to get him out of his way, I am not sure that he expect Victarion to get back any time soon Same as Asshai, I cant wait to read more about Valyrian ruins and the fate of all the people traveling there in the past...who knows, maybe he found what was left of Lannister's fleet, or even Brightroar  

P.S. I am actually not new, but I wasn't posting much  I red the books so many times in different languages (english is not my native, as you can see), but I was bit shy  I really enjoy reading all the predictions, theories and analysis, and I really hope that once ASOIAF is over (if ever), that someone is going to collect and publish all the theories from this forum. I am sure that some of the ideas are even better than Martin's  and that's only his fault because he let us dry for so many years...

He didn't actually throw a dragon egg into the sea. That's code for giving it to the Faceless Men in payment to take out his brother Balon. Braavos is a nation of islands, so leaving it in Braavos and throwing it into the sea aren't much different, depending on one's point of view.

My guess is the dragonhorn is from the Warlocks of Qarth who declared war on Dany. He seems to have them. The armor could be from them, or from Gerion...which would mean that Gerion did make it to Valyria and yes, maybe found Brightroar.

Publishing the theories would be a huge endeavor, and certainly interesting.

I wouldn't call any of the ideas better than the author's. He's the god of the story and determines what is best for it. Can you tell I'm a writer too?

Leaving us dry wasn't planned. Writers get blocked. It happens. And with so many characters, and so much going on, it's not remotely surprising that it happened. I think as he gets closer to the end (and kills off more characters) the writing will go faster. The middle is always the hardest. That's been my experience anyway, and my writing method is similar to GRRM's.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Thats a fair point m'lady, mind you, could it be that he was so afraid of what he saw in Asshai that he keeps it secret? It would be a blast if it turned out Crows Eye had merely sat in the harbours of all the exotic locations he claimes to have visited!

 I figure that Euron would take one look at the pale green phosphorescence of the River Ash and decide to go skinny dipping. I'm sure if he was chilling with Mel in Asshai he would invite her for swim too. In all seriousness I do imagine that diving into The River Ash would be highly intriguing to an Iron Born with such blasphemous values. What would a man who has an entire existence based on the ocean think of such waters?

 

I have to say that skinny dipping in the Ash cracked me up.

I was more thinking of what would happen if Euron met Mel now. I doubt their paths have crossed before and it would be interesting to see his reaction to a shadowbinder. For that matter, I'd like to see him and Quaithe in the same scene.

[Leo of House Cartel]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I have to say that skinny dipping in the Ash cracked me up.

I was more thinking of what would happen if Euron met Mel now. I doubt their paths have crossed before and it would be interesting to see his reaction to a shadowbinder. For that matter, I'd like to see him and Quaithe in the same scene.

I Thank you :-)

Based on the way Euron promotes himself, I imagine he would view a dalliance with The Red Woman as a tantalising prospect.

Much like The Crows Eye, Mel exhibits powerful control over other peoples psyche, through use of parlour tricks, real magic and mental/physical manipulation. Otherworldly magnetism drips from both parties pores, so one has to assume they would be able to feel each others magical energy without touching. If Euron has indeed been to Asshai and Valyria, he could perhaps even act as a "microhinge", enhancing Mels power just by his presence.

But it may be the strength of Mels faith which makes The Iron Kings pulse quicken most. Known for his contempt for the gods, Euron would most likely enjoy the sport of trying to break Mels will, much like he does Aerons. If Red could be brought round to Eurons way, she would be a perfect queen for this twisted king.

On the other hand, Mel might just be so powerful that she would view Euron as a mere pirate with cool toys. 

A Quaithe-Euron rendezvous would be a real trip. Shade of The Evening and Glass Candles would be an intense mix. 

 This makes me wonder, if Euron really has been to Asshai, why hasn't he got some laquer masked Shadowbinder bound up in The Silence with the other various holy men. 

4 hours ago, hiemal said:

My very tentative chronology has the Deep Ones arising on Sothoryos, possibly creating the Children through the power of mutation that the Oily Black Stones seem to both contain and represent, and then expanding to the other continents before being overwhelmed by their own creations and driven into the sea. Whether humans are likewise experiments gone feral, are naturally arising, or even came from somewhere else  fully formed as colonists (willing or unwilling) I'm not at all sure.

Thanks again. Interesting to think the Deep Ones may have created the children. I believe life one Planetos would have first flourished in the oceans, so The Deep Ones would be a fair choice for "first powerful race", and creating something like Those Who Sing The Songs Of Earth would certainly prove useful in land based recon missions.

A theory I had was that the entire world was at one point connected through some kind of "Weirwood Net" system. Truth and harmony with nature, with the ability to understand all other forms of life. If all living things go into the Weirwood collective consience, couldnt it be possible that this was once the case for the living? Whever this predates humans on Planetos I dont know, but I picture the Deep Ones/whoever brought the oily stones original mischief in Yeen to be the catalyst for a less connected world. The events in Asshai would have further sent the natural world into madness.

Since we're here, whats your prognosis on The Deep Ones contact with Asshai and The GEOTD? Did the creatures from the depths build the entire city?

[XIIIsnow]

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He didn't actually throw a dragon egg into the sea. That's code for giving it to the Faceless Men in payment to take out his brother Balon. Braavos is a nation of islands, so leaving it in Braavos and throwing it into the sea aren't much different, depending on one's point of view.

My guess is the dragonhorn is from the Warlocks of Qarth who declared war on Dany. He seems to have them. The armor could be from them, or from Gerion...which would mean that Gerion did make it to Valyria and yes, maybe found Brightroar.

Publishing the theories would be a huge endeavor, and certainly interesting.

I wouldn't call any of the ideas better than the author's. He's the god of the story and determines what is best for it. Can you tell I'm a writer too?

Leaving us dry wasn't planned. Writers get blocked. It happens. And with so many characters, and so much going on, it's not remotely surprising that it happened. I think as he gets closer to the end (and kills off more characters) the writing will go faster. The middle is always the hardest. That's been my experience anyway, and my writing method is similar to GRRM's.

 I am completely at your side on the position that the Writer is the god of his writing, and I don't think that fan's ideas are better then Martins, but I think it is interesting what people come out with during the dry periods (or should I said winter)  It is even more interesting from anthropological point of view that most of us are writing about things and people from ASOAIF as those people are of their own will, completely without any Writer intervention and thats why I think this place is great

On the other hand, I am writer myself. Actually I am writing completely different papers, scientific ones, and usually I have all the data, but still cant make myself to sit down and write something, not to mention something good  so, I understand the process of writing  anyhow, that doesn't make me feel less anxious about reading more  One day, when GRRM finally finish his saga, my life will become a bit poor without expecting something more, or reconstructing something that will come