300 H&H Magnum Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 I am working on my own interpretation of these visions. I have read the explanations presented here and elsewhere but I am not in agreement with all of them. Additional materials have come to light in the form of "The World of Ice and Fire" as well as several preview chapters from "The Winds of Winter". I want to tackle two of the topics from the visions this evening. The naked lady sprawled on the floor being savaged by the rat-faced dwarfs. The most common interpretation is that she represents Westeros and the rats are Robb, Balon, Joffrey, and Stannis. Those four are indeed rats but the dwarfs do not represent them. The woman is not Westeros. The vision is literal. I believe this is a vision of a human sacrifice. The Cup of Fire and the Cup of Ice. One of the big mistakes is thinking Dany and Jon are parallel characters. I do not believe this. It is Dany and Bran who are parallel. Dany drank from the Cup of Fire, the mind trip drink given to her outside the Palace of Dust. Bran drinks from the Cup of Ice three books later when he ate the weirwood paste. Both saw visions after taking the drug. The visions came in reverse chronological order. Dany saw a woman she did not recognize offered for sacrifice. Bran saw a captive being bled and killed in front of Winterfell's heart tree. The meaning is direct. The sorcerers of Qarth practice human sacrifice and feed their servitors on human flesh. Bran's ancestors practiced human sacrifice and fed the trees with human flesh. We also learned from Nan that the White walkers fed their wights human flesh and they saved the "maids" (virgins) for their own use. The White walkers hunted these maids for sport. We do not yet know what they did with the bodies of these girls afterwards. The sorcerers of Qarth tried to trick Dany and trap her within. She outsmarted them and got out of the trap. The Children of the Forest and Bloodraven seems to me are doing the same thing to Bran. The White walkers are weak to obsidian. This same mineral was used by the Aztecs to cut the flesh of their human sacrifice. Maybe Mr. Martin got the idea of using obsidian as a weapon from reading history. Obsidian was used on spear points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 35 minutes ago, 300 H&H Mag said: I am working on my own interpretation of these visions. I have read the explanations presented here and elsewhere but I am not in agreement with all of them. Additional materials have come to light in the form of "The World of Ice and Fire" as well as several preview chapters from "The Winds of Winter". I want to tackle two of the topics from the visions this evening. The naked lady sprawled on the floor being savaged by the rat-faced dwarfs. The most common interpretation is that she represents Westeros and the rats are Robb, Balon, Joffrey, and Stannis. Those four are indeed rats but the dwarfs do not represent them. The woman is not Westeros. The vision is literal. I believe this is a vision of a human sacrifice. The Cup of Fire and the Cup of Ice. One of the big mistakes is thinking Dany and Jon are parallel characters. I do not believe this. It is Dany and Bran who are parallel. Dany drank from the Cup of Fire, the mind trip drink given to her outside the Palace of Dust. Bran drinks from the Cup of Ice three books later when he ate the weirwood paste. Both saw visions after taking the drug. The visions came in reverse chronological order. Dany saw a woman she did not recognize offered for sacrifice. Bran saw a captive being bled and killed in front of Winterfell's heart tree. The meaning is direct. The sorcerers of Qarth practice human sacrifice and feed their servitors on human flesh. Bran's ancestors practiced human sacrifice and fed the trees with human flesh. We also learned from Nan that the White walkers fed their wights human flesh and they saved the "maids" (virgins) for their own use. The White walkers hunted these maids for sport. We do not yet know what they did with the bodies of these girls afterwards. The sorcerers of Qarth tried to trick Dany and trap her within. She outsmarted them and got out of the trap. The Children of the Forest and Bloodraven seems to me are doing the same thing to Bran. The White walkers are weak to obsidian. This same mineral was used by the Aztecs to cut the flesh of their human sacrifice. Maybe Mr. Martin got the idea of using obsidian as a weapon from reading history. Obsidian was used on spear points. Very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 hour ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said: Very interesting. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo of House Cartel Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 @300 H&H Mag Great find dude, doesn't sound like it bodes well for poor old Bran. So many potential new angles to look at the COTF from on the back of this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord of the Crossing Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 If I remember my intro classes in history, the Aztecs were using those obsidian blades to cut the heart out of their offerings. They believed religious killings would help prevent the end of their world. Do it often enough and it's an effective means of checking population growth. See, 2012 came and the world didn't end. It worked! Those visions are interesting because they travel back in time. The warlocks still practice ritual killings and we don't know when they began. The Starks practiced it in the past and we don't know when they stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Lame Lothar Frey said: If I remember my intro classes in history, the Aztecs were using those obsidian blades to cut the heart out of their offerings. They believed religious killings would help prevent the end of their world. Do it often enough and it's an effective means of checking population growth. See, 2012 came and the world didn't end. It worked! Those visions are interesting because they travel back in time. The warlocks still practice ritual killings and we don't know when they began. The Starks practiced it in the past and we don't know when they stopped. The ritual you are referring to is the New Fire ceremony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Hold Em Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I forget which but one of the Mesoamerican Indian people played a sport similar to football. The losers were sacrificed to the gods. It sucks to lose. It made for a more competitive game when both sides were highly motivated. "Drink from the cup of ice. Drink from the cup of fire". I like your explanation pointing to the drugs they were made to consume. It opened their eyes even if what they saw disturbed. Some truths aren't always pleasant but nonetheless important. Dany will eventually taste the weirwood paste. I wonder if she will have the same visions that Bran had. Vice versa what will Bran see when (if) he drinks from the cup of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jango Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 On 2/19/2017 at 8:59 PM, 300 H&H Mag said: The White walkers are weak to obsidian. This same mineral was used by the Aztecs to cut the flesh of their human sacrifice. Maybe Mr. Martin got the idea of using obsidian as a weapon from reading history. Obsidian was used on spear points. I mean, A Song of Ice and Fire is heavily based on historical events. I'm sure he did his fair share of research, and more, only to make the books far more sophisticated and accurate to reality as he possibly could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 If the woman is an actual woman, I'd say it's Catelyn. Who knows what the Freys did to her body before tossing it into the river sans clothing. Death by rat gnawing is not a known method of human sacrifice within the books. Could you provide quotes about the Others feeding flesh to the wights, and chasing maidens? I don't recall any of the wights we've seen eating at all. Or the chasing part. But I don't remember everything. I do remember Wildling women having children with the Others, per Old Nan. If the Others really did chase girls we've got ourselves a Ramsay parallel that gives credence to House Bolton being descended either from Others or Night's King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf's Bane Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 On 2/22/2017 at 8:26 PM, Texas Hold Em said: I forget which but one of the Mesoamerican Indian people played a sport similar to football. The losers were sacrificed to the gods. It sucks to lose. It made for a more competitive game when both sides were highly motivated. "Drink from the cup of ice. Drink from the cup of fire". I like your explanation pointing to the drugs they were made to consume. It opened their eyes even if what they saw disturbed. Some truths aren't always pleasant but nonetheless important. Dany will eventually taste the weirwood paste. I wonder if she will have the same visions that Bran had. Vice versa what will Bran see when (if) he drinks from the cup of fire. The indians played a sport similar to soccer. Football has a different meaning over here in the U.S. We do rule the world you know (joking). On 2/22/2017 at 8:57 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said: If the woman is an actual woman, I'd say it's Catelyn. Who knows what the Freys did to her body before tossing it into the river sans clothing. Death by rat gnawing is not a known method of human sacrifice within the books. Could you provide quotes about the Others feeding flesh to the wights, and chasing maidens? I don't recall any of the wights we've seen eating at all. Or the chasing part. But I don't remember everything. I do remember Wildling women having children with the Others, per Old Nan. If the Others really did chase girls we've got ourselves a Ramsay parallel that gives credence to House Bolton being descended either from Others or Night's King. One of Nan's stories. The white walkers fed human flesh to their servants (wights). I see the parallel. The warlocks of the east fed human flesh to their servants (dwarfs). I don't think it's Catelyn. It could be Sansa in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarze Sonne Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I agree that Bran and Daenerys are parallell of each other, ice and fire, not Jon who empatizes both. Drink from a cup of ice, drink from a cup of fire. That's probably Jon and Arya. At HoBaW, Arya drank the cold cup and went blind after she killed Dareon, then she drank the warm cup to regain her sight. As for Jon!? Quote That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would known what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me." "Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not AGoT, Catelyn II He'll have to drink the left-over cup from Robb's Kingdom with his mother's Stark heritage, and then from Daenerys' conquest with his father's Targaryen's heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen 747 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 3 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said: I agree that Bran and Daenerys are parallell of each other, ice and fire, not Jon who empatizes both. Drink from a cup of ice, drink from a cup of fire. That's probably Jon and Arya. At HoBaW, Arya drank the cold cup and went blind after she killed Dareon, then she drank the warm cup to regain her sight. As for Jon!? He'll have to drink the left-over cup from Robb's Kingdom with his mother's Stark heritage, and then from Daenerys' conquest with his father's Targaryen's heritage. Interesting ideas. One minor adjustment. The prophecy was for Dany. So if we assume she will drink from a cup of fire and a cup of ice that would lend some credibility to R + L = D. After all, to drink from a cup means to taste its contents. In this usage it means Daenerys will taste both Fire and Ice. She has the ability to take from both cups. That could mean she is a daughter of ice and fire. I do not support this myself but that is one interpretation of this line in the prophecy and it is logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarze Sonne Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 16 minutes ago, Agents of Fortune said: Interesting ideas. One minor adjustment. The prophecy was for Dany. So if we assume she will drink from a cup of fire and a cup of ice that would lend some credibility to R + L = D. After all, to drink from a cup means to taste its contents. In this usage it means Daenerys will taste both Fire and Ice. She has the ability to take from both cups. That could mean she is a daughter of ice and fire. I do not support this myself but that is one interpretation of this line in the prophecy and it is logical. On the opposite, I don't think all prophecies in HotU are about Daenerys, they are meant for her to know though. The mother of dragons parts that came immediately after the cups signify that it's about her (fire to light, lies to know, mounts). The naked woman, mad Aerys and Rhaegar are not about her, but for her (and the readers) to know. I suspect that the cups of ice and fire are for someone else, most probably Jon and Arya. Arya drank both in a lame way, but she sort of fullfilled it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 7 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said: <snip One of Nan's stories. The white walkers fed human flesh to their servants (wights). I see the parallel. The warlocks of the east fed human flesh to their servants (dwarfs). I don't think it's Catelyn. It could be Sansa in the future. How do rats equal wights, even symbolically? I can easily see rats being symbolic of certain members of House Frey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 On 2/19/2017 at 8:59 PM, 300 H&H Mag said: I am working on my own interpretation of these visions. I have read the explanations presented here and elsewhere but I am not in agreement with all of them. Additional materials have come to light in the form of "The World of Ice and Fire" as well as several preview chapters from "The Winds of Winter". I want to tackle two of the topics from the visions this evening. The naked lady sprawled on the floor being savaged by the rat-faced dwarfs. The most common interpretation is that she represents Westeros and the rats are Robb, Balon, Joffrey, and Stannis. Those four are indeed rats but the dwarfs do not represent them. The woman is not Westeros. The vision is literal. I believe this is a vision of a human sacrifice. The Cup of Fire and the Cup of Ice. One of the big mistakes is thinking Dany and Jon are parallel characters. I do not believe this. It is Dany and Bran who are parallel. Dany drank from the Cup of Fire, the mind trip drink given to her outside the Palace of Dust. Bran drinks from the Cup of Ice three books later when he ate the weirwood paste. Both saw visions after taking the drug. The visions came in reverse chronological order. Dany saw a woman she did not recognize offered for sacrifice. Bran saw a captive being bled and killed in front of Winterfell's heart tree. The meaning is direct. The sorcerers of Qarth practice human sacrifice and feed their servitors on human flesh. Bran's ancestors practiced human sacrifice and fed the trees with human flesh. We also learned from Nan that the White walkers fed their wights human flesh and they saved the "maids" (virgins) for their own use. The White walkers hunted these maids for sport. We do not yet know what they did with the bodies of these girls afterwards. The sorcerers of Qarth tried to trick Dany and trap her within. She outsmarted them and got out of the trap. The Children of the Forest and Bloodraven seems to me are doing the same thing to Bran. The White walkers are weak to obsidian. This same mineral was used by the Aztecs to cut the flesh of their human sacrifice. Maybe Mr. Martin got the idea of using obsidian as a weapon from reading history. Obsidian was used on spear points. Forgive my asking, but where did you get "Cup of Fire and Cup of ice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300 H&H Magnum Posted February 26, 2017 Author Share Posted February 26, 2017 On 2/20/2017 at 0:36 AM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said: Very interesting. On 2/20/2017 at 2:19 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said: Agreed On 2/20/2017 at 4:19 AM, Leo of House Cartel said: @300 H&H Mag Great find dude, doesn't sound like it bodes well for poor old Bran. So many potential new angles to look at the COTF from on the back of this! Thanks On 2/22/2017 at 8:26 PM, Texas Hold Em said: I forget which but one of the Mesoamerican Indian people played a sport similar to football. The losers were sacrificed to the gods. It sucks to lose. It made for a more competitive game when both sides were highly motivated. "Drink from the cup of ice. Drink from the cup of fire". I like your explanation pointing to the drugs they were made to consume. It opened their eyes even if what they saw disturbed. Some truths aren't always pleasant but nonetheless important. Dany will eventually taste the weirwood paste. I wonder if she will have the same visions that Bran had. Vice versa what will Bran see when (if) he drinks from the cup of fire. I believe the game involved kicking a ball through a hoop to score. That sounds harder than football to me. The goal is a lot smaller and it is presumably defended like in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300 H&H Magnum Posted February 26, 2017 Author Share Posted February 26, 2017 On 2/25/2017 at 2:48 PM, Dorian Martell's son said: Forgive my asking, but where did you get "Cup of Fire and Cup of ice? It came straight from the prophecy. "drink from the cup of ice. drink from the cup of fire". Potions that open the mind's eye to see "shadows" of past, present, and future. Things that happened. Things that are happening. Things that may happen. Things that could have happened. Cup of Fire is what Pyat Pree gave to Dany. Cup of Ice is the bloody porridge that Bran ate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 1 hour ago, 300 H&H Mag said: It came straight from the prophecy. "drink from the cup of ice. drink from the cup of fire". Potions that open the mind's eye to see "shadows" of past, present, and future. Things that happened. Things that are happening. Things that may happen. Things that could have happened. Cup of Fire is what Pyat Pree gave to Dany. Cup of Ice is the bloody porridge that Bran ate. Where, in what book? Chapter number? Who said it to whom? And the whole quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
300 H&H Magnum Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 43 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said: Where, in what book? Chapter number? Who said it to whom? And the whole quote This could perhaps be the most important chapter in all of the books. From Clash of Kings. Daenerys walks into the House of Undying and asked for their counsel. They gave her these visions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSlayerofLies Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 49 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said: Where, in what book? Chapter number? Who said it to whom? And the whole quote OP is likely referring to this passage Quote "I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?" . . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . . . . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . . "Three?" She did not understand. . . . three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air. . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . . ACOK Daenerys IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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