Targs lack of interest in terms of invading Essos

[devilish]

I never understood that. In their prime the Targs had dragons, they could raise immense armies + their technology was superior to that of Essos (knights, full plate armour etc). Lys and the stepstones would have been a great addition to Westeros which would then pave the way to further invasions.

 

 

[rotting sea cow]

I think this has been discussed many times. There are few things to win in such campaign and much to lose.

 

23 minutes ago, devilish said:

I never understood that. In their prime the Targs had dragons,

And a big realm to rule, whore you must be careful to keep the balance of powers.

23 minutes ago, devilish said:

they could raise immense armies

Only through the Great Houses bannermen. Anyone who answer the call may win a good piece of the conquest, but if they lose they will be weakened back at home. Think on the Boltons and Dustin holding armies from Robb. They are now in better position compared to the rest of the Northern lords. A war in foreign lands is very destabilizing for internal politics. 

 

23 minutes ago, devilish said:

+ their technology was superior to that of Essos (knights, full plate armour etc).

I doubt that. Everything we know of the Free Cities is they have better technologies than Westeros. Even people in Qohor can rework Valyrian steel.  Some cities even have standing armies. But it's true there nothing similar to knights in Essos.

23 minutes ago, devilish said:

Lys and the stepstones would have been a great addition to Westeros which would then pave the way to further invasions.

 

Sounds like a good idea. Conqust the Stepstones and charge for the passage. Do you think that Braavos will be happy? Myr? Pentos? Your own merchants at home? Who will hold the islands? Then you conquest the Free Cities and commerce goes down to a standstill. How do you deal with the Dothraki? Dragons are powerful war machines but unless you recreate Valyria and its hundreds of dragonlords, you cannot go conquering the world. The conquest of Westeros was both a military and political success, not easy to achieve elsewhere.

[Leo of House Cartel]

Good question @devilish,

I would say most Dragonriding Targaryen Kings were predisposed dealing with domestic affairs.

Aegon The Dragon was known to "look west instead of east", and was focused on conquering Westeros, after which he spent his remaining years consolodating his power while also waging war to bring the Dornish to heel.

Aenys had political troubles to deal with from The Faith, aswell as a "weak nature". Maegor spent his reign at war with the same Faith, and also had numerous troubles at home, such as marriages, miscarriages and family feuding.

It was during the reigns of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I that the Targayen dragons loomed largest. While there were surely enough dragons to invade a good portion of Essos, both Kings were known for their kindness and good nature. Jaehaerys spent his long reign bringing peace and stability to the realm in wake of Maegors follies. He and Alysanne also had to endure the deaths of many of their children, so he had his sights well set on home. Viserys had to deal with his own family problems, which were too numerous to name.

Aegon II spent his reign at war. The Dance not only helped bring the dragons to extinction, but also severly damaged the Westerosi political and military infrastructures, to the point no one in Kings Landing with any sense would have deemed the Iron Throne capable of an Essosi invasion.

That the last dragons dies during the reign of  Aegon III should have been a sign that Targaryen powers were dwindling. Aegons melancholy and lack of drive wouldn't signify the kind of King who seeks conquest anyway.

And once the dragons were gone, I'm sure even the most arrogant of Targs would have viewed an attempt at Essosi conquest to be folly. There are other places in Essos with superior technology and soldiers, such as The Unsullied, not to mention the impressive naval regimes deployed by Myr, Lys, Tyrosh, Pentos, Braavos, Ib and Volantis. We should also look at the power of The Iron Bank aswell as the Rogare Bank as reasons against post dragon invasions.

I do however wonder why the pre Conquest Targs such as Gaemon never went after Lys. A tropical paradise which is a hotbed of Valyrian blood, aswell as a strategically sound location, Lys could have been a great location for training soldiers, breeding dragons, and finding appropriate marriages. If The Rogue Prince and The Sea Snake had the right idea with their conquest of The Stepstones, I imagine the location would be highly useful if one could properly control it, sort of like a south east Shield Islands.

[devilish]

The crownlands is possibly the weakest region in Westeros. The Targs should have figured out that this dependence over their bannermen to fight their own battles would end up in misery.  Soon enough the Westerosi would be asking questions like why on earth they have to commit men to a king that can’t defend himself. 

Also I never suggested that the Targs should have invaded all Essos either. The Stepstones are ruled by pirates and had been ruled by Targs and Blackfyres before + it was raided by the iron islanders too. Volantis is blood of old Valyria. It is only fair for the Targs to want to unite all Valyrians under one roof.  

The Bravoosi are business men, therefore its not in their interest to cause unnecessary wars to defend people who descended from ancient Valyria (of all places) or a pack of pirates.  Don’t forget that Bravoos was founded by slaves who escaped dragons. Do they really want to face dragons now?Not to forget that they have some great warriors in Westeros with full plate armour. If Meryn Trant can spank the first sword of Bravos like a little bitch then imagine what a Dayne or a Greatjon can do. 

Volantis and the stepstones would have given the Targs a base to operate just in case the Westerosi kicked them out. It would have also given the Targs some  military clout in Essos. For example the Blackfyres would have found it very difficult to find a sponsor whose willing to give them the refuge needed for them to build their golden company if that country know that by doing so he'll piss off a powerful neighbour.

 

[Lord Vance II]

3 hours ago, devilish said:

Lys and the stepstones would have been a great addition to Westeros which would then pave the way to further invasions.

This just seems like such a massive undertaking and very expensive. I also think there would be a good chance the rest of the Free Cities would rally to defend Lys, mainly to keep the Dragon out of Essos. None of them want that. Sure, there have been alliances, but seizing territory is a whole different story. They could take Lys, but the 3 Sisters together, with possibly Volantis and/or Braavos turns into a massive conflict for something you don't need.

They could probably get away with taking the Stepstones, and maybe they should have. But to me, the undertaking of seizing real land on Essos isn't worth it. 

[devilish]

1 minute ago, Lord Vance II said:

This just seems like such a massive undertaking and very expensive. I also think there would be a good chance the rest of the Free Cities would rally to defend Lys, mainly to keep the Dragon out of Essos. None of them want that. Sure, there have been alliances, but seizing territory is a whole different story. They could take Lys, but the 3 Sisters together, with possibly Volantis and/or Braavos turns into a massive conflict for something you don't need.

They could probably get away with taking the Stepstones, and maybe they should have. But to me, the undertaking of seizing real land on Essos isn't worth it. 

 

[devilish]

The stepstones was the home of pirates. Lys and Volantis were blood of old Valryia. Aegon could have persuaded the other Essosi that he's only interested in bring the Valyrians under one roof. He wasn't interested in anything else. Marriages ties would be made to ensure that. I really cant see Bravoosi warriors going toe to toe against dragons to safeguard the blood of old Valyria interest. They hate their guts 

[Lord Vance II]

I agree that Braavos doesn't give two shits Targ blood, or any of the other cities. But, as you said, Lys would be a foothold for further aggression. Plus that theory sounds an awful lot like pre-WWII appeasement, and we all know how that turned out. 

[Texas Hold Em]

On 2/20/2017 at 5:34 AM, devilish said:

I never understood that. In their prime the Targs had dragons, they could raise immense armies + their technology was superior to that of Essos (knights, full plate armour etc). Lys and the stepstones would have been a great addition to Westeros which would then pave the way to further invasions.

 

 

On 2/20/2017 at 5:34 AM, devilish said:

I never understood that. In their prime the Targs had dragons, they could raise immense armies + their technology was superior to that of Essos (knights, full plate armour etc). Lys and the stepstones would have been a great addition to Westeros which would then pave the way to further invasions.

 

 

I think the Targaryens wanted to move away from the practice of owning slaves.  While it is true that Lord Aenar brought slaves to Dragonstone, it is possible that he intended all along to end the practice.  The slaves he brought with him were part of his household and we really do not know if they chose to go or were forced to go.  Maybe he eventually gave them freedom.  The Targaryens appear to have wanted to leave behind many of the practices of their ancient homeland.  A good example is the making of Valyrian steel.  A wealthy family like the Targaryens would have had weapons smith and metal workers skilled in the making of swords.  If a family like the Starks employed someone like Mikken to make their weapons, a more powerful and more sophisticated family like the Targaryens would have had several smiths under their employ.  Considering that the forty noble families who ruled Valyria were in constant competition with one another, the necessity to have the best weaponsmasters at your employ must have been obvious.  LIkely there is truth to what we suspect, that the making of Valyrian steel involved a sacrifice of human life.  As far as we know, the Targaryens did not practice sacrificial killings after they made their home at Dragonstone. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 2/20/2017 at 2:34 AM, devilish said:

I never understood that. In their prime the Targs had dragons, they could raise immense armies + their technology was superior to that of Essos (knights, full plate armour etc). Lys and the stepstones would have been a great addition to Westeros which would then pave the way to further invasions.

Some targs tried to take the stepstones and failed. Also, Essosi  tech is not in any way behind westerosi. Culture and training maybe, but not the tech. And why would a dynasty that ruled over an entire continent go back and waste time conquering a place that was the downfall of their people?

 

[Belgarad]

They hadn't finished conquering all of Westeros until after the last Dragon died.  You shouldn't pick up a new toy until you're done playing with the old one first.

[Jaak]

The urban emphasis of Free Cities should have put them at a disadvantage against dragons.

Dorne could resist dragons by evacuating visible castles and scattering for guerrilla.

Compare Pentos and their Flatlands. Tillers and toilers bound to land exist. But landowners live within city walls and rarely visit, leaving even supervision to subordinates if possible.

If the city were put to dragonfire, then nobles escaping to countryside would find themselves out of place without the habit of living in their countryside and hunting there. And the tillers and toilers bound to soil might not be inclined to rally to nobles who show up for the first time as fugitives - they might prefer to do their duty to the lord now sitting in the charred ruins of the city and apprehend the fugitives.

What would have happened to Three Whores if Daemon and Caraxes had simply flown to Tyrosh and put the city to dragonfire?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

 The Targaryens lacked the power to conquer and hold Essos . Their  control in Westeros was never absolute .   

[Colonel Green]

19 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

 The Targaryens lacked the power to conquer and hold Essos . Their  control in Westeros was never absolute .   

It was quite absolute during the halcyon period from the accession of Jaehaerys I to the death of Viserys I.

That 80-year period is where any Essosi imperialist ambitions would have been realized.  It really comes down to the two monarchs not being interested in it.

[Jaak]

On 27.2.2017 at 9:24 PM, Colonel Green said:

That 80-year period is where any Essosi imperialist ambitions would have been realized.  It really comes down to the two monarchs not being interested in it.

But Daemon was.

Why did Daemon not simply put Tyrosh to dragonfire?

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2017-02-20 at 11:34 AM, devilish said:

I never understood that. In their prime the Targs had dragons, they could raise immense armies + their technology was superior to that of Essos (knights, full plate armour etc). Lys and the stepstones would have been a great addition to Westeros which would then pave the way to further invasions.

 

 

House Targaryen never really had any time to look east. They only ruled Westeros for around 300 years and their last dragon died 150 years into it. Their reign over Westeros was plagued by civil wars, rebelions, uprising, disease etc ontop of incompetent and mad king's.

If the Dance didn't happen and they managed to get their s!!! together they could have conquered Essos no doubt in my mind. Probably could have taken everything west of the river rhoyne without dragons.

[Lord Varys]

There is perhaps a chance that the Targaryens on Dragonstone expanded into Essosi territory early on during the Century of Blood. Gaemon was called 'the Glorious' for some reason. Could be because he became a very rich merchant lord, but could also be that he had some expansionist tendencies and conquered Pentos at one time, or Myr, or merely a decent portion of land between those cities.

[Colonel Green]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

But Daemon was.

Why did Daemon not simply put Tyrosh to dragonfire?

Perhaps because that would have caused problems for Viserys, if his brother was going around laying waste to the Essosi mainland. 

[Violet]

Maybe, they wanted to get away from Valyria as far as possible, because they were afraid of doom of Valyria's effects to Essos and didn't have time or power for any invasion after conquering Westeros since they had much more important problems like succession crisis, excitation of dragons and Dornish wars.