Second strongest houses in each kingdom?

[Coolbeard the Exile]

29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol you are still guesstimating. GRRM has clearly stated who is the most power House in the following regions

• Dorne
• Reach
• Riverlands
• Vale

At no point has he revealed who is the strongest in the North. Until you can come up with a quote from the books or the author on this matter then any answer is nothing more than speculation.

 

 

I'm not sure what that has anything to do with what I asked.

How so?

How many heavy horse did Manderly send South with Robb?

How many heavy Horse did Manderly send to Bolton?

According to your estimates Wyman has around 1,000 Heavy horse that has never been seen or mentioned in five books (of a seven planned series). This seems pretty preposterous. 

Why does Roose, Lady Dustin or even the Northern raised Theon wander where this extra 1,000  heavy horse is? Why does Robb not request the help of these 1,000 heavy horse when he is rejected by the Knights of the Vale? Why could these 1,000 heavy horse not successfully beat the Boltons in the Hornwood lands?

It is nice that you believe in this, but there is no actual evidence in the books that there is a hidden 1k Manderly heavy horse sitting around doing nothing. 

 

Pragmatically House Manderly is the strongest House in the North no question.

The Manderly forces left behind did fight the Boltons and capture the Hornwood but they were forced to withdraw by Tywin.

The Manderly's were supposed to defend White Harbour and im sure he wanted a strong and loyal bannermen at strength to keep a watch on the North when he was south.

 

[Bernie Mac]

5 minutes ago, mmenolas said:

  If anyone genuinely believes it to be the Boltons, I'd love to see some text and numbers to support that position.  Consistently stating "nuh uh, I don't believe it, so my opinion is better" is a pretty poor foundation for any position.

AGOT The Boltons send more men South than the Manderlys, maybe as many as 1,000 more than the Manderly's 1,500. We see more Bolton military in the First book

ACOK; Winterfell is captured and requests help Both House Manderly (a few hundred) and House Bolton (600 send men, for different reason. We see more Bolton miltiary in the third book

ADWD: Despite Wyman's boasts all we see with him is 300 men. Once again we see more Bolton military. 

There is not a single book in the series so far that has shown the Manderly's to have a larger military than the Boltons. 

 

27 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

There are 5 cities in Westeros and Manderly controls one of them. They are by far the richest House in the North and have the biggest population.

Yes they are the richest. We have no idea if they are the most populated, that is never said in the books. 

 

38 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

 And it would include Roose Bolton, who brought at least 500 horse back North, and had multiple hundreds left with Ramsay. So Roose alone has close to 1000 left as we speak.

At least 500? And they are all Bolton vassals? Where is that stated. 

 

42 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And Manderly outright confirms that he has more than that left. So no, the 300 he brought to Winterfell clearly is not his full strength. And no one believes it to be either.

He says that? Excellent. Quote the line where he confirms he has more more than 300. 

 

39 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I was hoping for an actual argument

And that is pretty sad. That you are so invested in your bias that you can't discuss or accept that what you say may not be true, but have to argue that you are without offering any actual substantial evidence. 

[mmenolas]

11 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

They are the richest. We have no idea if they are the most populated, that is never said in the books. 

Is it not safe to assume that 1. Holding a city   2. Being on the coast   3. Not being in the harsher regions of the North would lead to higher population?  If we consider the low urbanization rate of a medieval world (taken to the extreme in Westeros, with only 5 cities on a massive continent), it would take massive land holdings for any other Northern house to make up for the population lead the Manderlys get from White Harbor.  Then factoring in the fact that their lands are adjacent to water, enabling more trade and thus more small towns/villages helps them secure that lead.  Finally, not experiencing the harshest of winters would provide them with a more stable population- preindustrial societies had very volatile populations that fluctuated with climate changes, disease, etc. The Manderlys would suffer less from winter (beyond the more mild winters, they also have waterways and a city for easier access to trade goods when needed), and thus be better suited to maintain their population dominance.

So, yet again, it's not stated directly but we can use the information we have to make a very reasonable deduction.

[Protagoras]

Are we talking wealth or prestige or troops? Because the answer will differ.

in the North for example, pre AGoT, the Manderlys are the second house when it comes to troops. But the Boltons are second in prestige. And when it comes to wealth the answer is likely be the Stark themselves, despite the Starks take a cut AND getting the same cut from other families, due to the cash machine that is house Manderly and the city of White harbor who should be no 1 here.

[mmenolas]

22 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Are we talking wealth or prestige or troops? Because the answer will differ.

in the North for example, pre AGoT, the Manderlys are the second house when it comes to troops. But the Boltons are second in prestige. And when it comes to wealth the answer is likely be the Stark themselves, despite the Starks take a cut AND getting the same cut from other families, due to the cash machine that is house Manderly and the city of White harbor who should be no 1 here.

I'd agree that the Bolton have the more historic lineage and greater prestige in the North.  I'd also agree that the Manderlys surpass the Boltons in wealth and troops.  I don't know that I'd assume that the Starks have more wealth or direct troops, however.

The Starks have more troops in that when they call their banners, it includes all of the lower houses and all the men sworn to those houses, but we don't have much clarity on how many lords and knights are sworn directly to the Starks.  I'll admit, that for purposes of an imagined war between Stark and <other great house> the Starks should have significant advantage.  However, if the Starks and every second-tier Northern house (those sworn directly to the Starks) split in to individual kingdoms, I don't know that the Starks have the most troops (I'd have to revisit the world book for hints).

With regard to wealth, we don't see a significant tax system in place between the lord's paramount and their vassals.  I assume there must be some system, but it may not be massive.  Could it be that their dues are primarily paid in the form of troops for wartime?  There don't appear to be massive infrastructure improvements going on, so where does all that tax income go?  It might be safer to assume that very little of it rolls upward, and second-tier lords use it to grow their own cities/towns/harbors/mines.  No evidence either way, so maybe the Starks are richer.  It's just a really big assumption to say that the Starks get some significant cut. In fact, many of the taxes we see in the books are on goods/services (entering the city, whores, etc.), not a income or property taxes.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Currently or before my family took down the arrogant wolf boy?  Pre-Red Wedding were dark days indeed. 

Pre-Red Wedding/Dark Ages

• North - Bolton
• Riverlands - Frey
• Stormlands - ?
• Dorne - Yronwood
• Reach - Hightower
• Iron Islands - ?
• Vale - Royce
• West - ?

Post-Red Wedding/Enlightenment

• Riverlands - House Frey of Riverrun
• North - Manderly
• Stormlands - ?
• Dorne - Yronwood
• Reach - Hightower
• Vale - Royce
• West - ?

 

 

[The Hammer of Justice]

North - house Manderly

Iron Islands - I don't know.....maybe house Goodbrother

Vale - house Royce obviously

Riverlands - house Frey

Westernlands - I have no idea

Reach - house Hightower

Stormlands - also no idea.....probably one of the marcher lords, like house Swann

Dorne - house Yronwood for sure

Crownlands - I don't know if the Velaryons still retain some of their former power

[mmenolas]

1 hour ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

Stormlands - also no idea.....probably one of the marcher lords, like house Swann

If it's a marcher lord, I'd lean toward House Caron.  They have the title Lord of the Marches, and while it's explicit that the other marcher lords are not necessarily their vassals, it does imply some level of standing.  Caron and Swann both claim to be the oldest of the Marcher Lords.  Finally, Nightsong is further west than Stonehelm, so I'd assume they have more conflict (due to their proximity to the Reach) and would need a stronger military presence.  This is all just me making assumptions/educated guesses.  Is there a good case to be made for Swann instead?  Right now I have the two as a toss-up, assuming the second strongest is even a marcher lord.

[Boarsbane]

15 minutes ago, mmenolas said:

If it's a marcher lord, I'd lean toward House Caron.  They have the title Lord of the Marches, and while it's explicit that the other marcher lords are not necessarily their vassals, it does imply some level of standing.  Caron and Swann both claim to be the oldest of the Marcher Lords.  Finally, Nightsong is further west than Stonehelm, so I'd assume they have more conflict (due to their proximity to the Reach) and would need a stronger military presence.  This is all just me making assumptions/educated guesses.  Is there a good case to be made for Swann instead?  Right now I have the two as a toss-up, assuming the second strongest is even a marcher lord.

The Swann's control the Slayne, which is apparently a major river route in the Stormlands, so they're probably richer at least. As for currently, Swann isn't lacking for able heirs while House Caron is basically extinct and had their lands given to someone else.

[Rob Storm]

It doesn't really answer the question but a house that is big that I think will have a big role to play is House Rowan of Goldengrove.  Currently at Storms End ahead of Connington and with a large force.  I am not sure of the full number he has brought(or what houses would follow he or Mace if the chose different sides) for the siege but I believe that it is an impactful force he could move one way or another.  

So technically its a Reach house with a strong place in the Stormlands.  

[Stormking902]

IMO some houses like Manderly and Hightower could even being stronger then there liege lords

[Quellon]

Stokeworth's are definitely richer than Velaryons and Rosby's are also. If they could feed King's Landing after the Stannis attack...they can't be poor.

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

IMO some houses like Manderly and Hightower could even being stronger then there liege lords

Hightower yes, but House Manderly is too southern to ever be more powerful than the Starks. 

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Are we talking wealth or prestige or troops? Because the answer will differ.

in the North for example, pre AGoT, the Manderlys are the second house when it comes to troops. But the Boltons are second in prestige. And when it comes to wealth the answer is likely be the Stark themselves, despite the Starks take a cut AND getting the same cut from other families, due to the cash machine that is house Manderly and the city of White harbor who should be no 1 here.

I'm not sure the Starks are more wealthy than the Manderlys. The taxes go to the Crown, not to Winterfell.

We see other smaller houses who are richer than their overlords, most notably the Iron Throne itself during the reign of King Robert in comparison to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Tyrells of Highgarden, the Hightowers of Oldtown, and possibly the Redwynes of the Arbor.

I see no inherent problem with a vassal house being wealthier than the overlord house.

The Freys could very well be richer than the Tullys, the Hightowers richer than the Tyrells (they always compared to the Lannisters in regards to their riches). The impression one gets in TMK also very much suggests that the Butterwells might have been richer than the Tullys. Wealth is not necessarily very stable. We see this with the Iron Throne under Aerys II in comparison to Robert's regime.

And one assumes the Lannisters where significantly poorer during Tytos' days - when nobody was paying back their loans - than they are in Tywin's days.

Prestige-wise the Manderlys certainly aren't the most powerful house in the North. The proper Northmen look down on them, especially on the current generation due to their gluttony which is seen as a sign of weakness.

And while I agree that the Manderlys have the most heavy horse (and perhaps cavalry in general) we don't know whether they can field the most men in total.

The whole discussion on this is based on using the numbers we are given in the books but those are usually drawn from actual wars/military campaigns. We have no idea how many troops the various houses could field if they had a lot of time to gather all their troops.

If it turned out the Manderlys controlled as large a chunk of land as the Umbers seem to control I'd easily enough assume they are the most powerful house in the North. But since we don't know whether Oldcastle and Ramsgate are actually sworn to White Harbor I think we cannot really determine that. While it is clear that the Umbers should have much less people per square mile on their lands in the far north if their lands were much larger than those of the Manderlys they could field, perhaps, as many men as they.

It is really difficult to say. But then I'd of course assume that the Manderlys have more/better heavy horse and perhaps even better armored footmen simply because they are richer and can thus afford to hire more and pay their household knights and sworn swords more than the other lords can.

[Protagoras]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Snip

I think you must have misunderstood me. You did note that I said pre-AGoT, right?

I am arguing that the Manderlys are more wealthy than the Starks, not the opposite.

Nor am I arguing that the Manderlys are the most prestigewise house in the North. That honor goes to the Starks themselves.

If you want my full list (again pre-AGoT) I would say: Troops: Stark, Manderly, Bolton. Prestige: Stark, Bolton, Dustin, Wealth: Manderly, Stark, Dustin (Maybe Bolton).

[The Wolves]

5 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I think you must have misunderstood me. You did not that I said pre-AGoT, right?

I am arguing that the Manderlys are more wealthy than the Starks, not the opposite.

Nor am I arguing that the Manderlys are the most prestigewise house in the North. That honor goes to the Starks themselves.

If you want my full list (again pre-AGoT) I would say: Troops: Stark, Manderly, Bolton. Prestige: Stark, Bolton, Dustin, Wealth: Manderly, Stark, Dustin (Maybe Bolton).

My question for you and everyone else who is ranking the Boltons so high is where is the evidence that the Boltons are so powerful? 

 

[Protagoras]

14 hours ago, mmenolas said:

I'd agree that the Bolton have the more historic lineage and greater prestige in the North.  I'd also agree that the Manderlys surpass the Boltons in wealth and troops.  I don't know that I'd assume that the Starks have more wealth or direct troops, however.

The Starks have more troops in that when they call their banners, it includes all of the lower houses and all the men sworn to those houses, but we don't have much clarity on how many lords and knights are sworn directly to the Starks.  I'll admit, that for purposes of an imagined war between Stark and <other great house> the Starks should have significant advantage.  However, if the Starks and every second-tier Northern house (those sworn directly to the Starks) split in to individual kingdoms, I don't know that the Starks have the most troops (I'd have to revisit the world book for hints).

With regard to wealth, we don't see a significant tax system in place between the lord's paramount and their vassals.  I assume there must be some system, but it may not be massive.  Could it be that their dues are primarily paid in the form of troops for wartime?  There don't appear to be massive infrastructure improvements going on, so where does all that tax income go?  It might be safer to assume that very little of it rolls upward, and second-tier lords use it to grow their own cities/towns/harbors/mines.  No evidence either way, so maybe the Starks are richer.  It's just a really big assumption to say that the Starks get some significant cut. In fact, many of the taxes we see in the books are on goods/services (entering the city, whores, etc.), not a income or property taxes.

Well, if you are able to call banners to get more troops, that certainly count no? The Stark opponent will certainly experience them as very real, 

As for Wealth, while we don´t see a tax system, I am blaming GRRM being lazy. There should be a lot of tax collectors running around everywhere as well as Tollkeepers and stuff. We do not see them since they aere not relevant for the novel. And certainly Luwin must have had people working for him. I don´t need to see them on page to know that they must exist. 

The Starks make money by taxing their lands, which should be bigger than their rivals in the North. In addition, while the taxes are the kings (taken from tariffs and tolls etc), most likely House Stark as overlord have the responsibility to collect and send them, which mean they take a cut due to corruption in administrative fees. And it might be that some vassals pay tribute, especielly those that have been given Stark lands in the first place or if you are a masterly house. And then we havn´t touched on the different decrees that have beenin place from previous Kings of the North. The Starks should be second wealth-wise in other words, since the raw cash that a city like White Harbor nets in can´t be matched even by this. 

[Protagoras]

13 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

My question for you and everyone else who is ranking the Boltons so high is where is the evidence that the Boltons are so powerful? 

 

Ehh? On prestige, you mean?

Well, they are the former Red kings seen as "the" Stark rival. They were the last to fold. That means status. And it looks to be one of the few houses people outside of the North might be even aware of (Jaime mentions them). 

On wealth, well they are able to muster quite alot of soldiers so therefore they should be able to tax their farmers quite alot too. the ability to produce soldiers is directly comparable on the tax you can take out in goods, since soldiers cost to maintain and keep. Then again, they lack Barrowton or something similiar, right? So that should mean the Dustins surpasses them wealth-wise, while mobilizing less. 

As for troops. They have used something like 4500 guys already. And have conducted a war in Hornwood lands apart from that. And doesn´t even look close to be out of soldiers. 5-6000 for them is very realistic and make them third most likely after the Starks themselves and Manderly.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Protagoras said:

I think you must have misunderstood me. You did not that I said pre-AGoT, right?

I did note that. Guessing the losses of the houses during the war is very difficult.

1 minute ago, Protagoras said:

I am arguing that the Manderlys are more wealthy than the Starks, not the opposite.

You wrote the opposite:

14 hours ago, Protagoras said:

And when it comes to wealth the answer is likely be the Stark themselves, despite the Starks take a cut AND getting the same cut from other families, due to the cash machine that is house Manderly and the city of White harbor who should be no 1 here.

At least that's how I understood you. I thought you wrote the Starks are the richest despite the Manderlys making a lot of money.

8 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

As for Wealth, while we don´t see a tax system, I am blaming GRRM being lazy. There should be a lot of tax collectors running around everywhere as well as Tollkeepers and stuff. We do not see them since they aere not relevant for the novel. And certainly Luwin must have had people working for him. I don´t need to see them on page to know that they must exist. 

One assumes this would actually be one of the duties of the steward rather than the maester, at least insofar was the incomes and revenues of Winterfell are concerned.

8 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

The Starks make money by taxing their lands, which should be bigger than their rivals in the North.

Those would not be taxes - since taxes are the king's - but rather rents for the lands they hand out to the lords and masters sworn directly to Winterfell (whether they also collect such rents from the great houses sworn to Winterfell is difficult to determine) and the peasant tenants sitting on those lands.

The absence of royal tax and toll collectors in the North outside White Harbor could be an indication that there aren't (m)any tax revenues to be had in the North, especially in light of the fact that the peasants would often pay such things in kind. The Iron Throne would have no interest in getting any taxes paid in kind from, say, Sea Dragon Point. It would be much more expensive to collect such taxes than they would be worth.

8 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

In addition, while the taxes are the kings (taken from tariffs and tolls etc), most likely House Stark as overlord have the responsibility to collect and send them, which mean they take a cut due to corruption in administrative fees.

There is no reason to believe that things work like that. Winterfell does not appear to be a center of royal bureaucracy. The taxes and tolls collected in White Harbor most likely are collected there rather than in Winterfell.

And we know from TWoIaF that only Dorne has the right to determine the amounts of taxes it owes to the Iron Throne. For all the other regions the Iron Throne does that. The Martells have a treasurer, the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns, etc. do not have a treasurer.

And we have no indication that anything whatsoever changed in Winterfell after Robb was declared king. The Manderlys threw the royal tax and toll collectors out of White Harbor but no such people were banished from Winterfell nor was any decision made to not continue to send monies and other taxes to KL.

In that sense one assumes that the Starks have no right to collect tolls and taxes in the name of the Iron Throne.

[Protagoras]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stuff

No, I didn´t wrote the opposite. The red line in my text was to define who is the second house. Manderly second in troops, the Boltons second in prestige and when it comes to wealth the Starks themselves (ie, they are second in Wealth). 

And yes, I was lazy calling it taxes since it is more like rents, in the form of cash, labour service or produce. Still taxes should exist too. Say a mill giving 10 sacks of grain and splitting it 1 sack for the miller/1 sack for the lord/8 sacks for the farmer. I call such a thing a tax. 

As for administrative center, I am still assuming such a steward existing off screen. And that GRRM simply have been lazy. That the North lacks the right to determine the amounts of taxes it owes to the Iron Throne doesn´t mean that they lack a right to keep some of that money for themselves.