Quellon

Second strongest houses in each kingdom?

68 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

No, I didn´t wrote the opposite. The red line in my text was to define who is the second house. Manderly second in troops, the Boltons second in prestige and when it comes to wealth the Starks themselves (ie, they are second in Wealth). 

And yes, I was lazy calling it taxes since it is more like rents, in the form of cash, labour service or produce. Still taxes should exist too. Say a mill giving 10 sacks of grain and splitting it 1 sack for the miller/1 sack for the lord/8 sacks for the farmer. I call such a thing a tax. 

As for administrative center, I am still assuming such a steward existing off screen. And that GRRM simply have been lazy. That the North lacks the right to determine the amounts of taxes it owes to the Iron Throne doesn´t mean that they lack a right to keep some of that money for themselves. 

You are indeed correct Protogoras. Here is the quote from Martin himself, on the topic:

Question:

This question relates a bit to 5..but.. hey. How do the great houses, besides the lannsiters of course, make there money. Is it all through the trading of goods?

Answer

Taxes and customs duties.

So the Starks indeed earn their income from taxes and customs duties on all lands and goods in the North, whether directly or indirectly.

As for your take on the Manderlys, I agree. As well as with your take on the Boltons.

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36 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

And yes, I was lazy calling it taxes since it is more like rents, in the form of cash, labour service or produce. Still taxes should exist too. Say a mill giving 10 sacks of grain and splitting it 1 sack for the miller/1 sack for the lord/8 sacks for the farmer. I call such a thing a tax. 

Yeah, that would basically be a tax, and one assumes that owning/controlling mills is important for local lords (as seen in ADwD) so we have to assume they provide them with some incomes, either in kind (flour) or money (by demanding a fee for using them).

36 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

As for administrative center, I am still assuming such a steward existing off screen. And that GRRM simply have been lazy. That the North lacks the right to determine the amounts of taxes it owes to the Iron Throne doesn´t mean that they lack a right to keep some of that money for themselves. 

Sure, but it seems as if they are not actually charged by the Crown to collect the taxes in the name of the Iron Throne. Corruption and intimidation could still work, though. Although I expect much more of that sort to happen in the West where Lannister gold should have ensured that Casterly Rock keeps a hand in everything the Lannisters still want to control, even in the dragon days.

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Do we actually have any indication of taxes in places beside the five cities? I remember the Manderly comment on the royal tax officers from Clash; some comment about or from Littlefingers past in Gulltown; and the tax on brothels introduced by Tyrion in KL. 

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20 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That is just regurgitating Lord Varys's favorite essay on the matter. Almost word for word, in fact. Think for yourself, man.

Even Manderly won't have better than a 3-1 infantry-cavalry ratio. Else he would exceed the Reach in that respect. And for him to exceed the Bolton's heavy horse, a 3-1 ratio would give him around 6000 men altogether.

 

You know that two people can come to the same conclusion, right? And that there aren't so many ways to word it? I could accuse you of copying Bright Blue Eyes arguments. Do you think this will get us anywhere? 

 

Okay, let's say Manderly has 6000 men in total. He sent 1500 of them to the South, where they died. So he has 4500 men left. Bolton sent 4000 men south, most of them survived. He also has his garrison with Ramsay, another 600 men. That alone would put him above Manderly. Some Manderly men (probably a few hundred) were sent to Rodrick, where pretty much every one of them died or fled. That's another 200-500 Manderly men dead. 

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7 minutes ago, John Doe said:

You know that two people can come to the same conclusion, right? And that there aren't so many ways to word it? I could accuse you of copying Bright Blue Eyes arguments. Do you think this will get us anywhere? 

 

Okay, let's say Manderly has 6000 men in total. He sent 1500 of them to the South, where they died. So he has 4500 men left. Bolton sent 4000 men south, most of them survived. He also has his garrison with Ramsay, another 600 men. That alone would put him above Manderly. Some Manderly men (probably a few hundred) were sent to Rodrick, where pretty much every one of them died or fled. That's another 200-500 Manderly men dead. 

Oh, sure. I'm talking about strength at the start of the series. The Manderlys have lost 1500 men in the South, and probably a few hundred with Ser Rodrik and an unknown number in the Hornwood lands.

If they started at 6000, they would be down to around 4000 in Dance, prior to commencing with Lord Manderly's new recruitment drive as witnessed by Davos in White Harbor.

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6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You are indeed correct Protogoras. Here is the quote from Martin himself, on the topic:

Question:

This question relates a bit to 5..but.. hey. How do the great houses, besides the lannsiters of course, make there money. Is it all through the trading of goods?

Answer

Taxes and customs duties.

So the Starks indeed earn their income from taxes and customs duties on all lands and goods in the North, whether directly or indirectly.

As for your take on the Manderlys, I agree. As well as with your take on the Boltons.

That is a semi-canon source. The problem with that is that nothing in the story actually indicates this is the case. We never see any of the great houses collect tolls or taxes for the Crown, making it not very likely that they have a lot to do with that.

Could be that they collect smaller taxes and other revenues like we see with those mills, but ADwD actually introduced the concept of royal fiefs outside the Crownlands, and we also know that there are yeomen in the Riverlands (and probably elsewhere, too). This makes the Seven Kingdoms closer to the real middle ages were things were pretty complex.

That indicates that the tax situation might be much more complex than one might think on first glance. 

4 hours ago, Mander said:

Do we actually have any indication of taxes in places beside the five cities? I remember the Manderly comment on the royal tax officers from Clash; some comment about or from Littlefingers past in Gulltown; and the tax on brothels introduced by Tyrion in KL. 

We have a reference to the Crown taxing the Redwyne wine trade; Paxter was granted an exemption from that after the Blackwater - something that left him very happy, indicating that this tax was a major source of income for the Crown.

We also learn that Kevan is considering to raise the taxes in the Epilogue - something that would not just affect the smallfolk but also the lords (who could easily interpret something like that as tyranny). That indicates that lords are actually paying taxes rather than collecting them.

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5 hours ago, John Doe said:

I could accuse you of copying Bright Blue Eyes arguments.

 

Where has BBE been?  I'd love for him to chime in, he's my favorite poster (just ahead of E-Ro).

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21 hours ago, mmenolas said:

Is there a good case to be made for Swann instead?  Right now I have the two as a toss-up, assuming the second strongest is even a marcher lord.

Nope, it was just a guess because Swann's are the most cyted house of the stormlands in the books, and they are marcher lords

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